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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 12:39:06 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

freedomdwarf1

However, unlike anywhere else in the modern world (UK, Europe, Autralia, NZ, even a lot of Asia and China), the US is unique in the high number of gun deaths and gun accidents that are reported on a daily basis.
It sounds horrible but a lot of non-US people are just sick and tired of hearing "yet another gun killing" in the US and a lot are being completely desensitized to it. I guess it's not much different to the 3rd world famines and other disasters.... all very valid and equally deplorable with all that human suffering. But when it becomes part of the daily hum-drum news events, it's no longer news, sadly.


First, since we are talking gun crime, not gun accidents, this statement is irrelevant.

Second, since it is not happening here, I get a little tired of the news media in the states making big stories about terrorist attacks in other countries.

Third, I am sick and tired of hearing about people dieing in car accidents caused by drunk drivers, and those drivers getting probation because they are wealthy, or getting short prison sentences for whatever reason. Having lost someone close to me and an unborn child, a drunk driver responsible for killing someone should be executed in the cruelest, most inhumane manner possible, preferably making them last a few days on whatever device used before they finally die.

Fourth, I am tired of seeing on American news every time the royals do anything. So prince Harry arrived at the South Pole, he is not impaired in any way shape or form, the British veterans with him are, they are news worthy.

Fifth, I have noticed that even with the firearms bans in the UK, there are still a number of shooting deaths in Northern Ireland, which, according to my Irish friends is illegally occupied by a hostile government. But that is just semantics right? ( But admittedly, I am a little biased, I have Irish ancestors that were asked to terminate their ownership of some land by a nice English noble, who used threat of force as the persuading argument.)
But then I have some Cherokee ancestors who were persuaded by the US government to leave their land in Western North Carolina and move to Oklahoma. Out of 32 who left north Carolina, 12 survived to see their new home in Oklahoma. Other Cherokees that were related to me did not leave and after a few years, the Federal Government was nice enough to give them land in their mountain home. It is called the Eastern Band of the Cherokee reservation.

I also have some Apache in my ancestry Chirachua to be exact, and that band of Apaches are just about extinct, thanks to the US Government.

Maybe that is my problem, genetic memory. I mean the stories of the Trail of Tears, and how the Irish branch of my family had to leave Ireland, not to mention two grandfathers who fought in the Revolution.

Sorry but the desire to have the ability and means to insure my freedom and keep what I have has to be genetic. Besides, if it happened once to members of my family in the 1800's I figure it can happen again.

Now, who wants to tell me that the US government can not go batshit crazy and start taking shit from citizens?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 1:11:43 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year. In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher.

Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations.

And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished.

In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports.


So no, I'm not the one lying here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
It also isn't true that the UK requires proof of age to buy a belt or cricket bat, or that there is no problem with suicides or public intoxication.

My 18yo son has been challenged twice recently, in different stores, when trying to purchase a leather belt.
I didn't say there aren't any suicides either - just not so many gun suicides per capita.
And yes, the growing number of alcohol-related crimes brought in the new alcohol-free zones in city centres that are very actively policed and enforced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Also notice that the same press (i.e. Murdoch and Black) who sensationalize gun violence in America to profit from the copycats, take a different approach in their homeland.
The fact that the UK is so different in physical size makes driving comparisons hard to rely on, the fact that the authorities so drastically underreport UK violent crimes makes those comparisons less valid.

Comparisons per capita are very valid comparisons.
And UK crimes are no less over or under reported than anywhere else where there is freedom of the press.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
We can all see the big things... massive amounts of guns in the hands of what would be called 'commoners' there, and a long history of suggesting that the quickest man with the gun is the good guy. What isn't so easy to see is the validity of knee jerk fantasy solutions like 'make all guns disappear'.

It's not a fantasy.
They did that successfully in the UK and Australia at the flick of a pen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
And it is impossible to see the utility of putting forth disinformation.

Just like yours??

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
When people see a car wreck involving a red truck, do they call the police and say 'I want to report a blue sedan on fire', and then give the wrong address? But people think nothing of coming onto the internet after an event like this, and throwing out the same tired old lines of BS about guns equaling unlimited freedom, or representing unbridled evil.

We don't present either points of view.
All we say is - just look at the stats, as published.




< Message edited by EdBowie -- 12/14/2013 1:12:23 PM >

_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 1:26:56 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

freedomdwarf1

However, unlike anywhere else in the modern world (UK, Europe, Autralia, NZ, even a lot of Asia and China), the US is unique in the high number of gun deaths and gun accidents that are reported on a daily basis.
It sounds horrible but a lot of non-US people are just sick and tired of hearing "yet another gun killing" in the US and a lot are being completely desensitized to it. I guess it's not much different to the 3rd world famines and other disasters.... all very valid and equally deplorable with all that human suffering. But when it becomes part of the daily hum-drum news events, it's no longer news, sadly.


First, since we are talking gun crime, not gun accidents, this statement is irrelevant.

It is still relevant because both are related to the prolific availability of guns and the fact that not everyone is a responsible gun owner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Second, since it is not happening here, I get a little tired of the news media in the states making big stories about terrorist attacks in other countries.

Yep, me too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Third, I am sick and tired of hearing about people dieing in car accidents caused by drunk drivers, and those drivers getting probation because they are wealthy, or getting short prison sentences for whatever reason. Having lost someone close to me and an unborn child, a drunk driver responsible for killing someone should be executed in the cruelest, most inhumane manner possible, preferably making them last a few days on whatever device used before they finally die.

Yep. I think most would agree with that.
Having seen some of the crap on US TV about how often people are seen to be drunk at the wheel is horrifying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Fourth, I am tired of seeing on American news every time the royals do anything. So prince Harry arrived at the South Pole, he is not impaired in any way shape or form, the British veterans with him are, they are news worthy.

You aren't the only one.
Unless you're a staunch loyalist, we're sick of that crap too.
It ain't news-worthy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Fifth, I have noticed that even with the firearms bans in the UK, there are still a number of shooting deaths in Northern Ireland, which, according to my Irish friends is illegally occupied by a hostile government. But that is just semantics right? ( But admittedly, I am a little biased, I have Irish ancestors that were asked to terminate their ownership of some land by a nice English noble, who used threat of force as the persuading argument.)

I believe we should give NI back to the Irish so they can unite their country.
The problem is, a shit-load of protestants and businesses seem to think they have the right to keep it.
And, most of the laws in NI are different to ours here in the UK and they have their own legal system.
NI is no more than a British territory (just like many others) and basically governs itself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
But then I have some Cherokee ancestors who were persuaded by the US government to leave their land in Western North Carolina and move to Oklahoma. Out of 32 who left north Carolina, 12 survived to see their new home in Oklahoma. Other Cherokees that were related to me did not leave and after a few years, the Federal Government was nice enough to give them land in their mountain home. It is called the Eastern Band of the Cherokee reservation.

I also have some Apache in my ancestry Chirachua to be exact, and that band of Apaches are just about extinct, thanks to the US Government.

I think the US government were waaay too heavy-handed with the native indians.
And I guess that's partly where the private arms shit came into being - fear of local uprisings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Maybe that is my problem, genetic memory. I mean the stories of the Trail of Tears, and how the Irish branch of my family had to leave Ireland, not to mention two grandfathers who fought in the Revolution.

Sorry but the desire to have the ability and means to insure my freedom and keep what I have has to be genetic. Besides, if it happened once to members of my family in the 1800's I figure it can happen again.

But for most civilised countries, that fear has been eradicated along with gun ownership.
Unfortunately for the US, they've gotten stuck in that rut and use exactly your reasoning for even more gun ownership.
A lot of it (IMHO) stems from fear or macho-man idiotics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, who wants to tell me that the US government can not go batshit crazy and start taking shit from citizens?

They often do, but very subtley and in surreptious ways.
But when it comes to guns, sadly, they seem to be powerless to change it.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 2:40:47 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		You know, Freedomdwarf, I would see the logic in some of your arguments, until I look at modern examples, Stalin, China, Hitler, Pol Pot, just to name a few. The eradicated gun ownership, and look what happened.

Stalin established gulags, Hitler exterminated an estimated 12 million people counting people who were not Jews and Pol Pot seemed to be hell bent on exterminating every citizen of his country.

Now you claim that the possibility of a oppressive tyrannical government is a bit far fetched in the west, if I understood you correctly, but are you 100% positive?

How can you predict that some future United Kingdom parliament will not strip away every right you have and leave you wondering what to do next?

One of the cornerstones of a despot rising to power is to promise great things, catering to every citizen, ending with oppression.

Or to move away from that possibility, sheriff patrol response time in my part of the county is between 10 and thirty minutes, what pray tell would you advise me to do if someone really wanted to break into my home and do harm to my family? Politely ask them to leave?

There have been five home invasions in my part of the county since August with the families at home, which included bodily injury. By the time that the sheriff patrol got to the scene, the criminals had left and ambulances were needed for the home owners.

I have a great nephew that is not quite two years old here, my niece and my sister. Yes I have dogs and they are well trained to protect family members, however I am not naive enough to depend on the dogs alone, I have a 1911 45ACP I can get to quick enough, my niece has a 9mm baretta she can get to fast enough, and my sister has easy access to a .380 automatic.

So you are telling me that I should allow the government to remove those weapons and depend on a law enforcement agency that is patrolling 919 square miles?

Are you familiar with the phrase "you can piss up a rope?"

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 2:48:23 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year. In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher.

Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations.

And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished.

In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports.


So no, I'm not the one lying here.




could you please give me the link to the policies?
I dont need to look up hooligans n bouncers, been there done that, mostly drunk...or just stupidity..And Ive still got the scars.
We are talking DEATH here.
Death by guns.....
Children dead by guns.
its not happening in the UK
Canada is higher up on the list...a tenth of the population, more guns registered than the US and a sad death by gun rate, Outside of Vancouver, in Toronto where our murder rate is climbing too high, many of them are gang related. or people getting caught in the crossfire....I cant remember the last time a child shot themselves.

if you want to talk about violence? fair enough, but this is a topic on a school shooting and sandy hook was a year ago and since then how many other children have died?

the answer was given in a previous post.....
violence in the UK has always been a problem.... anyone who has been out to the pub on a Friday or Saturday night can NOT disagree with that.
Reducing violence is a problem for every country....
your issue here is gun deaths...
why wouldnt anyone try
Are they just collateral damage for your freedom??
seems a very high price.




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(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:15:09 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You know, Freedomdwarf, I would see the logic in some of your arguments, until I look at modern examples, Stalin, China, Hitler, Pol Pot, just to name a few. The eradicated gun ownership, and look what happened.

Stalin established gulags, Hitler exterminated an estimated 12 million people counting people who were not Jews and Pol Pot seemed to be hell bent on exterminating every citizen of his country.

Now you claim that the possibility of a oppressive tyrannical government is a bit far fetched in the west, if I understood you correctly, but are you 100% positive?

And every one you mentioned there were run by dictators of some sort - none of them were a democracy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
How can you predict that some future United Kingdom parliament will not strip away every right you have and leave you wondering what to do next?

Because, like all democracies, the best they can get is just one more term in office.
If enough people don't like them, they don't get to stay in power.
And there have been times when a party have been thrown out of the driving seat with a vote of no confidence.
John Major was one and Gordon Brown was effectively forced to resign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
One of the cornerstones of a despot rising to power is to promise great things, catering to every citizen, ending with oppression.

Empty promises don't get them re-elected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Or to move away from that possibility, sheriff patrol response time in my part of the county is between 10 and thirty minutes, what pray tell would you advise me to do if someone really wanted to break into my home and do harm to my family? Politely ask them to leave?

If, like us, pretty much most intruders wouldn't be armed, you'd be entitled to use whatever non-deadly force is necessary to either detain, restrain or eject them.
You don't need a gun for any of those options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There have been five home invasions in my part of the county since August with the families at home, which included bodily injury. By the time that the sheriff patrol got to the scene, the criminals had left and ambulances were needed for the home owners.

And maybe that's the problem right there - the response time.
If I called my local police for a disturbance likely to cause injury (and I've had to do that with my step-son), they were at the door with sirens and blue lights within moments - less than two minutes!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I have a great nephew that is not quite two years old here, my niece and my sister. Yes I have dogs and they are well trained to protect family members, however I am not naive enough to depend on the dogs alone, I have a 1911 45ACP I can get to quick enough, my niece has a 9mm baretta she can get to fast enough, and my sister has easy access to a .380 automatic.

So you are telling me that I should allow the government to remove those weapons and depend on a law enforcement agency that is patrolling 919 square miles?

If they spent less on other things (like hiring loadsa extra armed guards at every public place), they could afford to have more patrol cars and get to people much quicker.
We do have special "Armed Response Teams" if the situation needs it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Are you familiar with the phrase "you can piss up a rope?"

Nope. Can't say I've heard that one.
But yes, I can piss up a rope!

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:15:39 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Lucy, take the estimated number of legally owned guns in the US, then take the numbers of gun related crime.

I admit the result is a large number, but compared to the total, it is actually a small percentage. Now take the number of gang related deaths caused by guns in the hands of teenagers, and compare that number to the total children killed in a school shooting, you will find school shootings account for a relatively low number.

I will agree that all those deaths are too many.

However, inner city school district learned years ago that the only way to prevent gun related violence in schools in their district was to take steps to keep the guns out of the schools. You know, metal detectors and armed police in the schools?

Now add the number of bullied and disenfranchised high school students in the public school system. One of two things are going to happen with these students, they are going to commit suicide or figure out someway to punish those they see as their tormentors.

This leaves few options to them, one they get a gun and shoot up a school, however if there were metal detectors and armed security, the odds would be much a hell of a lot lower that they get anywhere near enough to actually harm any students, the armed police will have dealt with them before they entered the school. (FYI, due to a non custodial parent taking a child out of a local school, custodial parents or guardians of students will be issued an ID next year, in the local city school district, no issued ID, there will be a long checklist to go through before they gain access to the schools)

Now, if they cannot get in the school, they can lay in wait outside to snipe at departing students, but as soon as the first shot is fired, an armed response will be on the way.

Extreme measures to prevent mass shootings in the schools, but in some places, absolutely necessary.

My solution, a ballistic registry for every gun imported, manufactured and sold in the US, maintained by the ATF. Criminal penalties for any gun owner who's weapon is used in a crime. In other words, if they dont secure the weapons properly, and they are used by someone else to commit a crime, the owner is going to jail. This eliminates the old line, well it went missing months ago. If it wasnt reported, they go to jail.

Gun owning extremists that scream that this would be the first step to the government taking our guns, piss up a rope. I made it clear that long before the government made the move to take our guns, we, the citizens of the United States would know something stinks in Denmark. Trust me, people will know it is going to happen long before the government make the first move.

Christ there are enough right wing extremist conspiracy theories on the web to be paranoid about.

If you want a realistic list to worry about, I can name 10 things off the top of my head that makes the government taking privately owned guns seem like a good thing.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:18:30 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You know, Freedomdwarf, I would see the logic in some of your arguments, until I look at modern examples, Stalin, China, Hitler, Pol Pot, just to name a few. The eradicated gun ownership, and look what happened.

Stalin established gulags, Hitler exterminated an estimated 12 million people counting people who were not Jews and Pol Pot seemed to be hell bent on exterminating every citizen of his country.

Now you claim that the possibility of a oppressive tyrannical government is a bit far fetched in the west, if I understood you correctly, but are you 100% positive?

And every one you mentioned there were run by dictators of some sort - none of them were a democracy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
How can you predict that some future United Kingdom parliament will not strip away every right you have and leave you wondering what to do next?

Because, like all democracies, the best they can get is just one more term in office.
If enough people don't like them, they don't get to stay in power.
And there have been times when a party have been thrown out of the driving seat with a vote of no confidence.
John Major was one and Gordon Brown was effectively forced to resign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
One of the cornerstones of a despot rising to power is to promise great things, catering to every citizen, ending with oppression.

Empty promises don't get them re-elected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Or to move away from that possibility, sheriff patrol response time in my part of the county is between 10 and thirty minutes, what pray tell would you advise me to do if someone really wanted to break into my home and do harm to my family? Politely ask them to leave?

If, like us, pretty much most intruders wouldn't be armed, you'd be entitled to use whatever non-deadly force is necessary to either detain, restrain or eject them.
You don't need a gun for any of those options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There have been five home invasions in my part of the county since August with the families at home, which included bodily injury. By the time that the sheriff patrol got to the scene, the criminals had left and ambulances were needed for the home owners.

And maybe that's the problem right there - the response time.
If I called my local police for a disturbance likely to cause injury (and I've had to do that with my step-son), they were at the door with sirens and blue lights within moments - less than two minutes!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I have a great nephew that is not quite two years old here, my niece and my sister. Yes I have dogs and they are well trained to protect family members, however I am not naive enough to depend on the dogs alone, I have a 1911 45ACP I can get to quick enough, my niece has a 9mm baretta she can get to fast enough, and my sister has easy access to a .380 automatic.

So you are telling me that I should allow the government to remove those weapons and depend on a law enforcement agency that is patrolling 919 square miles?

If they spent less on other things (like hiring loadsa extra armed guards at every public place), they could afford to have more patrol cars and get to people much quicker.
We do have special "Armed Response Teams" if the situation needs it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Are you familiar with the phrase "you can piss up a rope?"

Nope. Can't say I've heard that one.
But yes, I can piss up a rope!


ETA: Just a snippet of info: The US has one fifth of the worlds population but has more than half of all the guns.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:28:30 PM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
violence in the UK has always been a problem.... anyone who has been out to the pub on a Friday or Saturday night can NOT disagree with that.
Reducing violence is a problem for every country....
your issue here is gun deaths...
why wouldnt anyone try
Are they just collateral damage for your freedom??
seems a very high price.


Now....I haven't been much in pubs in the UK but I still can agree with that...considering the news about deaths in pubs due to stabbings...

but at least with knifes and other weapons there is a higher chance of survival than when everyone can swing around with his/her gun...

Can only second it....a very high price indeed....

_____________________________

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(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:30:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.


Not restrictive, totalitarian.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:34:19 PM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Your gun laws are allowing such incidents to happen.
Not just once or twice... but with regularity.
And for many of us outside of the US, it's just idiotic to support the current laws and expect it not to happen... again!


dito...

when I heard the news, straight away the sentence popped into my mind "here we go again"....and wondering "will they ever learn it."

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:35:01 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Lucy, take the estimated number of legally owned guns in the US, then take the numbers of gun related crime.

Then look at the comparable stats of gun deaths per capita.
The numbers themselves aren't useful unless put into a comparable statistic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I admit the result is a large number, but compared to the total, it is actually a small percentage.

I'd hardly call 20x the figures of the UK and Australia a 'small percentage'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now take the number of gang related deaths caused by guns in the hands of teenagers, and compare that number to the total children killed in a school shooting, you will find school shootings account for a relatively low number.

Does it matter where the shooting happen??
People are being shot on a daily basis.
That doesn't happen here or in Australia or Canada - only in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I will agree that all those deaths are too many.

Nobody is going to argue that.
But when sooo many could be avoided if guns were not freely available; that's food for thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
However, inner city school district learned years ago that the only way to prevent gun related violence in schools in their district was to take steps to keep the guns out of the schools. You know, metal detectors and armed police in the schools?

If there were no guns freely available, you wouldn't need either of those measures.
None of our schools here look like a high-security prison.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now add the number of bullied and disenfranchised high school students in the public school system. One of two things are going to happen with these students, they are going to commit suicide or figure out someway to punish those they see as their tormentors.

There are just as many per capita in most western countries.
The major difference is, guns aren't freely available except in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
This leaves few options to them, one they get a gun and shoot up a school,

If guns weren't freely available, this wouldn't be an option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
...however if there were metal detectors and armed security, the odds would be much a hell of a lot lower that they get anywhere near enough to actually harm any students, the armed police will have dealt with them before they entered the school. (FYI, due to a non custodial parent taking a child out of a local school, custodial parents or guardians of students will be issued an ID next year, in the local city school district, no issued ID, there will be a long checklist to go through before they gain access to the schools)

See my point above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, if they cannot get in the school, they can lay in wait outside to snipe at departing students, but as soon as the first shot is fired, an armed response will be on the way.

Extreme measures to prevent mass shootings in the schools, but in some places, absolutely necessary.

Not necessary if guns weren't freely available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
My solution, a ballistic registry for every gun imported, manufactured and sold in the US, maintained by the ATF. Criminal penalties for any gun owner who's weapon is used in a crime. In other words, if they dont secure the weapons properly, and they are used by someone else to commit a crime, the owner is going to jail. This eliminates the old line, well it went missing months ago. If it wasnt reported, they go to jail.

Can you please explain HOW a balistics database is gonna stop someone from shooting a gun in the first place??
No good shutting the door after the horse has bolted.
You need to keep the fucking door SHUT to stop it getting out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Gun owning extremists that scream that this would be the first step to the government taking our guns, piss up a rope. I made it clear that long before the government made the move to take our guns, we, the citizens of the United States would know something stinks in Denmark. Trust me, people will know it is going to happen long before the government make the first move.

Christ there are enough right wing extremist conspiracy theories on the web to be paranoid about.

If you want a realistic list to worry about, I can name 10 things off the top of my head that makes the government taking privately owned guns seem like a good thing.

And I'm sure both the UK and Oz will be backing that right up!

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:35:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		a ballistic registry for every gun imported, manufactured and sold in the US, maintained by the ATF

You know enough about firearms to know that running a steel brush down the barrel of a gun will alter it's ballistic footprint.
I find the idea of penalizing you because after you were robbed the thief misused your property.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:35:38 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.


Not restrictive, totalitarian.


WHich definition of totalitarian are YOU using?

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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:39:33 PM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and your post is why many in the USA just shake our heads at numbskulls who defend a country that restricts ALMOST EVERY THING

personally if I had to live in such a RESTRICTIVE SOCIETY I'd be thankful if someone came and shot me in the head!

your post reminds me of the old movie DEMOLITION MAN

You might consider it restrictive.
But for the most part, it is much freerer than you give it credit for.

Most of us love it because it's SHITLOADS safer and we get to live longer and our kids aren't in danger every day.
Just compare the stats - gun crimes and shit involving alcohol in countries where there are severe restrictions have much lower deaths.

If you wanna live in a virtualy anarchistic state... be my guest.



Exactly freedomdwarf1....

beside that, I stumbled in the past over enough americans who are glad to live abroad as they could not afford living in the US cause they live with a partner who is tetraplegic or due to having had cancer in the past, knowing that they can not afford healthcare if they return and might have to face cancer again....

what an awful country we live in, when people with such conditions can live here a pretty good life whereas according their blog they feel being screwed from their homecountry the oh so awesome US

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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:39:43 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Not restrictive, totalitarian.

Nope. deffo not true.
Not even restrictive let alone totalitarian.
We are a democracy, not a dictatorship.

You, with your blinkers on, might like to think so.
I like schools to look like schools, not high-security prisons.
I like to go shopping without worrying that some mofo might wanna shoot the place up.

No sireee.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:43:49 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Not restrictive, totalitarian.

Nope. deffo not true.
Not even restrictive let alone totalitarian.
We are a democracy, not a dictatorship.

You, with your blinkers on, might like to think so.
I like schools to look like schools, not high-security prisons.
I like to go shopping without worrying that some mofo might wanna shoot the place up.

No sireee.

You didn't agree, here I am dying of not surprised.
The great accomplishment of totalitarianism like that of Satan is convince us it dos not exist.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:50:34 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower
Exactly freedomdwarf1....

beside that, I stumbled in the past over enough americans who are glad to live abroad as they could not afford living in the US cause they live with a partner who is tetraplegic or due to having had cancer in the past, knowing that they can not afford healthcare if they return and might have to face cancer again....

what an awful country we live in, when people with such conditions can live here a pretty good life whereas according their blog they feel being screwed from their homecountry the oh so awesome US

People think I'm anti-US or anti-gun, I'm not.

We have guns here, just not in such prolification and you need a damned good reason to have one.
Self defense is not considered a good enough reason.
And our licensing laws are a lot tougher and more restrictive and better licensed than in the US.
But if you want to go shooting or hunting and you qualify, you can have a gun - just not any old gun or lots of them, just the ONE gun per license of the appropriate type for the activity it is needed for.

The US has many redeeming qualities that I actually like... a lot.
The major two things that put me off living there are the guns and healthcare costs.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 3:53:59 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The great accomplishment of totalitarianism like that of Satan is convince us it dos not exist.

But we don't live in a dick-tatorship like Stalin's rule.
We aren't even restricted like the Russians are... or Poland, Ukraine, Greece, Turkey (all democracies by the way).

We.... are much freer than you think.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/14/2013 4:03:48 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

It takes a real sickness to gloat over dead children. Thanks for showing how loathsome people can be.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Can you guess what didn't happen in approximately 98,800 other schools? That's right! No other school in the U.S. had a shooting incident yesterday.


That is nothing short of a stellar record and must bring tears of purest pride to all Americans, Dave.





Oh, swivel on it, Ed. Anyone who takes pride in the fact that lots of schools have *not* had a gun-killing on a given day - thus making an excuse for the fact that one school has - is beyond loathsome.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/14/2013 4:04:38 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 60
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