quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year. In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher.

Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations.

And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished.

In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports.


So no, I'm not the one lying here.

could you please give me the link to the policies?
I dont need to look up hooligans n bouncers, been there done that, mostly drunk...or just stupidity..And Ive still got the scars.
We are talking DEATH here.
Death by guns.....
Children dead by guns.
its not happening in the UK
Canada is higher up on the list...a tenth of the population, more guns registered than the US and a sad death by gun rate, Outside of Vancouver, in Toronto where our murder rate is climbing too high, many of them are gang related. or people getting caught in the crossfire....I cant remember the last time a child shot themselves.

if you want to talk about violence? fair enough, but this is a topic on a school shooting and sandy hook was a year ago and since then how many other children have died?

the answer was given in a previous post.....
violence in the UK has always been a problem.... anyone who has been out to the pub on a Friday or Saturday night can NOT disagree with that.
Reducing violence is a problem for every country....
your issue here is gun deaths...
why wouldnt anyone try
Are they just collateral damage for your freedom??
seems a very high price.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I wonder how many of those that heavily criticize the UK as being restrictive and totalitarian have actually lived here and witnessed the freedoms we have?

I've lived in the US, so I can make a direct comparison.
Apart from guns, we are actually freer than the Americans I lived with.
I also feel much safer here than when I lived in the US.

I also get free healthcare here.
I can zoom down the motorways at 70mph (and more if I don't think there's a cop car close by) - couldn't do that in the US! I was falling asleep at how s-l-o-w they all drive.
8-lane freeways, almost empty, and crawling at 55mph tops - mostly 40mph or less.
I can go shopping any time 24/7. Couldn't do that in the US - most shops closed at 9pm.
Couldn't get an alcoholic drink on most Sundays - most places wouldn't serve alcy stuff.
Allowed to turn right on a RED light?? Sheeesh... invitation to an accident.
Can't get medical help in most places unless you can show insurance.
Can't even get taken to hospital in an ambulance or see a doctor without a huge fucking bill.


And they talk about freedoms?
Shit.... They'd die to live here with what we have and what's available.
They just have nooo fucking idea.

Oh, but they can't have their guns! oooh no... ain't allowed.
How fucking terrible. We are sooo subjucated and have no 'freedom'.
Soo fucking laughable it ain't even funny.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

If lack of gun control is the problem why is it that in the 50's and 60's when we had far less gun control there were virtually no school shootings?
I am NOT saying that proves that less gun control is the answer but clearly more isn't either.

Well done you for not shooting school children in the 50's and 60's. That would be....50 or 60 years ago. I believe the world has moved on since then so maybe laws should do too.

But you can't touch the 2nd, hell no, you hang on to it like a child clinging on to its mother.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I never posted anything even vaguely resembling that. I made no mention of other schools at all. So now that you've resorted to frantic and impotent lying, I'll let my original assessment stand.

Yes, but you supported someone who had, Ed. Now please save your ludicrous holier-than-thou wind for someone else, eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
Professor Ken Pease, former acting head of the Home Office's police research group, and Professor Gary Farrell of Loughborough University, estimated in 2007 that the survey was underreporting crime by about 3 million incidents per year due to its practice of arbitrarily capping the number of crimes one can be victimised by in a given year at five. If true the error means that violent crime might actually stand at 4.4 million incidents per year, an 82% increase over the 2.4 million previously thought. Since the five crimes per person cap has been consistent since the BCS began this might not affect the long-term trends, however it takes little account of crimes such as domestic violence, figures for which would allegedly be 140% higher without the cap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
As I quite clearly said, gun violence in the US is a huge problem that needs to be fixed... and that the gun culture and too easy gun access are 2 big parts of the problem.
And the recent spike in such incidents among troubled individuals is too closely correlated to the wave of media sensationalism to be a coincidental non-factor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
I'll go ahead and call BS on that. The UK policies on reporting violent crime are published, and they show that after the 5th domestic abuse call, no more reports will be made for the next year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
In the US, every single visit gets its own CCN, and goes into the UCR.... just on that alone, hundreds of thousands of violent crimes never show up in the UK stats (and in spite of that, the UK violent crime rate is drastically higher.

Anyone who wants to, can go to YouTube and look up 'UK bouncers' or hooligan/punters, etc. and see hour after hour of 'town centers' with young people by the thousands (many of whom have been 'pre-drinking to save money) staggering from club to club, and getting into altercations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
And no one who has ever been to either the UK or Australia would try to pass off the fiction that there isn't a single privately owned gun in the entire nation. They are regulated, not banished.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
In the case of the UK, regulated so that the wealthy can keep up their hunting, and in Australia, registered and secured until used in shooting sports.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

New details emerge in Colorado school shooting

CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence.

In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building.

Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building.

“He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.”

Source

Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died.

Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Can you guess what didn't happen in approximately 98,800 other schools? That's right! No other school in the U.S. had a shooting incident yesterday.

That is nothing short of a stellar record and must bring tears of purest pride to all Americans, Dave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

It takes a real sickness to gloat over dead children. Thanks for showing how loathsome people can be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Can you guess what didn't happen in approximately 98,800 other schools? That's right! No other school in the U.S. had a shooting incident yesterday.

That is nothing short of a stellar record and must bring tears of purest pride to all Americans, Dave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US?

The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

New details emerge in Colorado school shooting

CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence.

In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building.

Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building.

“He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.”

Source

Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died.

Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher.

Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they?

Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived.

If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s.

Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents.

The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early.

An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps?

Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue.

Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior.

So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed?

Arturas and star

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they?

Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived.

If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s.

Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents.

The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early.

An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps?

Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue.

Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior.

So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed?

Arturas and star

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Some very valid points Arty - for once.

We've seen simlar behavioural problems and shit like that over here since the popularity of Social Media.
Perhaps that is one of the root causes for such outbursts?
It's difficult to quantify without some sort of properly controlled analysis - which could take years.

Fortunately for us, because of the distinct lack of readily available guns, the best the kids can do here is turn to bullying or just end up being angry at the world and being an unruly kid.

The US have such a readily available supply of guns, kids can borrow or steal a gun and go on a rampage and cause havoc.
Which just goes to show that not everyone is a responsible gun owner if kids can get hold of them so easily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Uh, freedomdwarf, just when did you live in the US?

The speed limit has been above 65 in most states since 1995, and then it went to 75 by 98. The only areas were speed is reduced is in the Metro areas due to traffic congestion.

2002-2003. So it's now a decade old.
I spent nearly 5 months on the outskirts of Raliegh, NC and the rest of the time in Jax and Tampa, FL.
And nowhere did I find any road that allowed me to legally drive more than 55mph.
Even when I went down the I4, the speed limit was 55mph and my lady driver had never in her life driven above 50mph.
Everywhere I went, everybody was just soo slow to what I was used to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
May I ask you a few questions?

1) Is there any restriction on the types or topics of books one is legally allowed to purchase in the UK?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
2) When the London transit system was bombed (sorry, I forget the year) were the explosives used commercially available or were the manufactured by the terrorists?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I have a purely ulterior motive for asking.

The truck bomb that was detonated in the first WTC terrorist attack was homemade, and the purchase of explosives is heavily restricted in the US, as is most probably in the UK.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The truck bomb used by Timothy McVeigh was for the most part composed of freely available compounds, with the exception of a few pounds of commercial grade explosives he stole from a quarry.

Now prior to both those incidents, many in government and the civilian population claimed that it was impossible for large amounts of explosives to be used in the US as weapons of mass destruction. The exception of course was the occasional pipe bomb and the Unabomber.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The two gunman at the Columbine high school constructed explosive devices out of full propane bottles used to fuel back yard bar be que gas grills. It was just pure dumb luck that while they researched every other part of their plan, they did not do much research in making bombs, neither of the devices detonated.

Unfortunately, military manuals on the making and using of improvised explosives are readily available to the general public, both US military manuals and manuals written for the Royal Army and the SAS.

Now before you say that pipe bombs and IED's are not the problem, I have to explain something. There is a sub culture of American teenager referred to as "basement" bombers. At one time this culture experimented with model rocketry and making their own propellants. The movie October Sky is the true story of one group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Although I was good at sports in high school, I was not depending on those abilities to get me to college, I was also an excellent student with a passion for physics and chemistry. Using chemicals that were legally purchased, I experimented in an unused barn on our property. I was lucky that I did not blow myself to bits during those years, but I managed to destroy an engine block, collapse an old masonry lined cistern on the property, and got very good at removing mesquite stumps from around the property.

I also dabbled in model rocketry, foregoing the kits available at the hobby shops for home made rockets and home made fuel.

Every one of the compounds are still legal to purchase at chemical supply stores in just about any city.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Then of course there is the fact that any student of history can tell you that the first chemical weapon was nothing more than chlorine gas. Gee there is no age limit on how old you have to be to purchase pool supplies...

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The instructions for other chemical agents are available online.

Do you see where I am going? It is just pure dumb luck that some kid has not decided a gun just wont do it, and steps up his or her game.

As I said before, I agree with sensible gun laws, but draw the line on bans or restrictions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

New details emerge in Colorado school shooting

CENTENNIAL, Colo. — Armed with a shotgun, a student entered Arapahoe High School and opened fire, hitting two other students before fatally turning the weapon on himself in the latest incident to confront a nation already debating the effects of repeated episodes of gun violence.

In a series of news conferences, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said the shooter entered Arapahoe High School in Centennial armed with a shotgun and looking for a specific teacher whose name the gunman called out. The student made no effort to hide the shotgun as he walked through the halls, deep into the building.

Robinson said the shooter, whom he did not identify, entered the school on the west side, apparently seeking a confrontation with the teacher. Alerted by other students who had seen the shotgun, the teacher left the building.

“He took himself away from the school in an effort to try to encourage the student to move with him,” Robinson said of the teacher, praising his decision as “the most important tactical decision that could be made.”

Source

Okay, at least this was not a mass killing and no one but the shooter died.

Still, a teenager with a shotgun got into a school to hunt a teacher.

Given that we have always had guns and kids and schools then what has changed to cause this to happen? What is new in children's lives now that did not occur earlier and caused this? Look for the change and you will find the cause(s). What are they?

Children now take drugs for various disorders, real or perceived.

If you ever went to a PTA meeting or teacher - parent meeting over the last ten or so years you will be stunned to find most parents don't go and/or there is only one parent in the family. This is the reverse of the situation prior to the 80s.

Broken homes are the norm rather than the exception. When I attended elementary there might be one kid in a 25 member class having divorced parents.

The schools themselves have changed? Is there a breakdown in discipline? Budget problems that make the school a place of stress rather than of learning? A teacher I know indicates they are baby sitting rather than teaching and afraid to discipline which makes it hell, she wants to retire early.

An attitude in today's society that for children in school "everyone wins" and so when a child does not win or is not successful in their studies they cannot handle the negative feedback when it is given and snaps?

Social media? I have a daughter who suffered online harassment from other girls over a boy, enough that she hated to go to school and she became angry and violent until we got to the bottom of this and fixed the issue.

Violent online and console games that have elementary school age kids shooting people by the hundreds while sitting for hours each day in their rooms away from family social interaction? I know my 13 year old son comes away from those games changed and almost angry and violent until I take him away from them and make him realize how bad he is acting. That for sure is a change to our children their behavior.

So, it's not guns and it's not kids nor is it schools in general since we always had these, so what changed?

Arturas and star

I have a five month old who I will not be putting into public schools and not because there are guns but because there are kids who will use guns or knives and are angry and hate enough to kill their teacher and even their classmates.

Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I agree with sensible gun laws, but draw the line on bans or restrictions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
That is strange since about the same time I drove from Montgomery, Al to Winston-Salem NC and at no time outside of metro areas was the speed limit under 70.