quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Because, what you call sex is vastly different from what someone else may call it. Much like what I call practicing religion is vastly different from what some other person may call it. According to the individual's beliefs and interpretation, they may be abstaining. Even on this site, every time the question comes up about whether or not BDSM is sex, we get lots of different answers. We can't get adults on a kink site to all agree on what is or is not sex. That gives us an idea how society in general will also have different interpretations of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Use to use, abstinence is definitely NOT more effecting than other forms of birth control. Because in between abstinence use, they will be having unprotected sex. Use to use is exactly how people practicing abstinence are getting pregnant.
Coming from the state with the highest STD, Pregnancy and infant mortality rate, I want my daughter to be fully educated on how to protect herself. As long as she is of legal age of consent and protects herself, I am not overly concerned about when she chooses to have sex. Its something I know I cannot control.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Because, what you call sex is vastly different from what someone else may call it. Much like what I call practicing religion is vastly different from what some other person may call it. According to the individual's beliefs and interpretation, they may be abstaining. Even on this site, every time the question comes up about whether or not BDSM is sex, we get lots of different answers. We can't get adults on a kink site to all agree on what is or is not sex. That gives us an idea how society in general will also have different interpretations of it.

Seriously?!? You're going to trot out this bullshit defense?!? Who do you think you are, Bill Clinton?!?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Use to use, abstinence is definitely NOT more effecting than other forms of birth control. Because in between abstinence use, they will be having unprotected sex. Use to use is exactly how people practicing abstinence are getting pregnant.
Coming from the state with the highest STD, Pregnancy and infant mortality rate, I want my daughter to be fully educated on how to protect herself. As long as she is of legal age of consent and protects herself, I am not overly concerned about when she chooses to have sex. Its something I know I cannot control.

"In between abstinence use..." means that they aren't abstaining from sex. You can't blame abstinence for someone getting pregnant when they are having sex (aka, not abstaining).

As far as you wanting your daughter to be fully educated on how to protect herself, we actually completely agree, which is something I've been saying for a week now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
You call it bullshit and you can call me Bill if you like. I call it to each his own. And I did not "trot out" anything; I mentioned earlier in this thread that people (especially teenagers) can have different definitions for what "sex" and "abstaining" mean.
How many different answers do we get on these boards when someone asks "Is BDSM sex?" For reference here is the most recent thread I can find where that question is addressed http://www.collarchat.com/m_4594174/mpage_1/tm.htm
You say they are not abstaining. They may say they are abstaining. It is THEIR belief system.
That is what everyone has been trying to get you to understand. It is not a birth control method. It is a philosophy of life based on personal beliefs. As such people (even people on a BDSM site) can and do interpret "sex" and "abstaining" in many different ways; as they do with any belief system....yes, seriously.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I doubt you can seriously show that licentiousness leads to greater teenage graduation; math or literary achievement.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
But you continue to argue that abstinence is effective at stopping pregnancy and the spread of STD's despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. The only way it is is if the people who claim to be abstinent are 100% perfect and honest. However when the same statement is made about condoms you are more than happy to bring up improper usage and people failing to actually use a condom when they claim they use it.
So why the double standard?

Where have I brought up people failing to actually use a condom?
When you use a condom during intercourse, the risk of the condom breaking or it's not being used properly goes with the territory. You can choose to use a condom, and, through no choice of your own, the condom breaks, and you have an increased risk of pregnancy and/or STD transmission.
Compare that with abstinence. If you are abstaining from intercourse, there is nothing that goes wrong without your choice. I acknowledge there is still a risk of STD transmission because kissing isn't considered sex, and STD's can be transmitted via saliva.
So, please show me how abstaining from sexual intercourse results in more pregnancies than any other non-sterilizing form of birth control.

Because, just like condom usage, practicing abstinence is not perfect. That is the point people have been making to you for many pages now.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/abstinence-4215.htm

quote:

How Effective Is Abstinence?
Used continuously, abstinence is 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy. It also prevents STDs.[/quote

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-condoms?page=2

quote:

How Effective Are Male Condoms at Birth Control?
Condoms are about 85% effective for birth control. With careful use, they are even more effective. Keep in mind that the best way to avoid getting pregnant is to not have sex (abstinence).

Note the bolded phrases. Note how that makes my point that you claim to be disputing.

They don't make your point. They support my point, even.

If you have sex, you aren't abstaining from sex. Period. There is no other way that can be decided on. As soon as you have sex, you aren't abstaining and your "continuous use" is no longer there. How do you not get this?

Also note that I have never questioned that proper condom use is a very effective method of pregnancy prevention. According to a box of condoms I have, less than 2 women out of 100 will become pregnant over the course of a year will become pregnant with correct and consistent use of a condom.

Apply that to abstinence, and just how quickly does your basis vanish (though your argument won't vanish, I'm sure)?

Right now, you're arguing that not having sex is less effective at preventing pregnancy than having sex. I can't even fathom how someone arrives at that notion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

"Age of consent" doesn't necessarily mean that a person has matured enough to be an adult. Moving on from that, who is responsible for a pregnancy stemming from two people who aren't ready to deal with the potential consequences of sex?

This is where the "personal responsibility" thing comes in. I want my boys to be ready to deal with a pregnancy before engaging in the activity that could result in a pregnancy. They don't have to be materially set for life, or be married, or have the nursery all ready to go. The responsibilities that go along with a pregnancy are such that I want my boys to be mature enough to handle them. This is one area too many men in the US weren't raised properly, imo. I went to school with a gal that had a son out of wedlock. She has raised the boy (to this point) alone and without any help from the father. From my point of view, that is a failing on his part. If my boys get a girl pregnant, I expect them to be supportive and involved in the results of that fertilization (while I hope they don't choose to abort, I will expect them to be supportive in that process, too, if it is the one chosen).

Perhaps you're okay with your kid getting pregnant (or getting a girl pregnant) and dealing with the consequences yourself. That's great; for you. I'd rather one of my kids not put me, his mom, her mom/dad, or families in that situation.

I expect my sons to accept the responsibilities of their actions. That doesn't mean I won't help them through tough times, but it does mean I'd rather them be ready for the responsibility and have reasoned their actions out ahead of time.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

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ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I doubt you can seriously show that licentiousness leads to greater teenage graduation; math or literary achievement.

True, but I can absolutely show that comprehensive sex education from a young age both reduces the rate of teenage pregnancy and raises the average age teenagers have sex.

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Both are true of the Dutch; the Netherlands has the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy in Western Europe.

So let's look at what they're doing, as it obviously works.

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They provide sex education in schools from ages 5 upwards (which you'd previously said you're against).

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That includes the physical side of sex and things like how to put on a condom. That's actually a pretty small part of the Dutch model though, although it's what gets attention in the international press. More importantly, they encourage discussion and debate on the moral and emotional implications of sex.

And, to repeat, it works. And abstinence education (as opposed to empowering young people with the right to choose to say no) has repeatedly been shown not to.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
You call it bullshit and you can call me Bill if you like. I call it to each his own. And I did not "trot out" anything; I mentioned earlier in this thread that people (especially teenagers) can have different definitions for what "sex" and "abstaining" mean.
How many different answers do we get on these boards when someone asks "Is BDSM sex?" For reference here is the most recent thread I can find where that question is addressed http://www.collarchat.com/m_4594174/mpage_1/tm.htm
You say they are not abstaining. They may say they are abstaining. It is THEIR belief system.
That is what everyone has been trying to get you to understand. It is not a birth control method. It is a philosophy of life based on personal beliefs. As such people (even people on a BDSM site) can and do interpret "sex" and "abstaining" in many different ways; as they do with any belief system....yes, seriously.

I will call it bullshit, because it is.

How is it you can't understand that by choosing to not have sex, you are preventing pregnancy? It's a choice. It's very effective.

Birth control doesn't require that one is actively engaging in sex. That's your misunderstanding. And, not surprising to me, we'd likely agree on methods of making sex safer and less risky.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux




Actually, I doubt you can show that.
For the record, I have no doubt that you can show that countries that have comprehensive sex education have lower rates of teen pregnancy.

What I dispute is the causality. That comprehensive sex education CAUSES lower rates of teen pregnancy.

It is pretty widely noted that pregnancy rates go down as women enter the workforce and as a country develops. I suspect that both sex education and teen pregnancies are trailing indicators; ie., that they both are co-related symptoms of things like labor force participation; population density; etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

Not a statistic but I won't say that high violent crime rates, high incarceration rates, high drug abure rates, teenagers that try to slaughter their fellow students on a monthly base are sympthoms of a happy and well adjusted society...

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: eulero83

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

Not a statistic but I won't say that high violent crime rates, high incarceration rates, high drug abure rates, teenagers that try to slaughter their fellow students on a monthly base are sympthoms of a happy and well adjusted society...

So when a man in norway slaughters 80 teens its a proof that sex education in action eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux




Actually, I doubt you can show that.
For the record, I have no doubt that you can show that countries that have comprehensive sex education have lower rates of teen pregnancy.

What I dispute is the causality. That comprehensive sex education CAUSES lower rates of teen pregnancy.

It is pretty widely noted that pregnancy rates go down as women enter the workforce and as a country develops. I suspect that both sex education and teen pregnancies are trailing indicators; ie., that they both are co-related symptoms of things like labor force participation; population density; etc.

Fascinating. When you are talking climate change, you DEMAND causality.


When you are talking teenage pregnancy rates, you pooh pooh the demonstrated causality that others produce.

Hypocrisy much?

Bottom line kids.

Abstinence education keeps kids from having sex as much as drivers ed keeps em from speeding.

quote:

Abstinence education keeps kids from having sex as much as drivers ed keeps em from speeding.

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ORIGINAL: eulero83

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

Not a statistic but I won't say that high violent crime rates, high incarceration rates, high drug abure rates, teenagers that try to slaughter their fellow students on a monthly base are sympthoms of a happy and well adjusted society...

So when a man in norway slaughters 80 teens its a proof that sex education in action eh?

"on a monthly base" and "rates" not one episode

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: eulero83

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Many cultures strongly dissuade sex before marriage; and sex while young. I don't think you can make the statistical case the the residents of these nations are more or less psychologically stable, well adjusted, or happy.

Not a statistic but I won't say that high violent crime rates, high incarceration rates, high drug abure rates, teenagers that try to slaughter their fellow students on a monthly base are sympthoms of a happy and well adjusted society...

So when a man in norway slaughters 80 teens its a proof that sex education in action eh?

"on a monthly base" and "rates" not one episode

But you missed my point.

Do you really think there is a significan correlation betweeen comprehensive sex education and violence.
Really?

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Do you really think there is a significan correlation betweeen comprehensive sex education and violence.
Really?

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

This is big. PUSHBACK against all the crazy religious nuts.

I don't know if it'll get any traction and go anywhere, but I like the cut of her jib!

quote:

Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-CA) has introduced a bill - Repealing Ineffective and Incomplete Abstinence-Only Program Funding Act of 2013 (HR 3774) - this week that would end federal funding of abstinence-only programs and support comprehensive sexuality education.

"We need to get serious about educating our young people about sex," said Lee. "Abstinence-only programs fail to address the challenge of unplanned pregnancies and sexually-transmitted infections among our youth, which have reached a critical level. We must ensure that we provide comprehensive sex education programs that have been proven to work, instead of throwing money away on programs that don't."

http://msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=14772