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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 1:11:07 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

... Sarah Palin ... found out the hard way is that abstinence is the least effective form of birth control.


Abstinence is charming. Furthermore, isn't it objectively demonstrable that there is a relationship between sex and rude behavior?

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 1:18:15 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		(butt) fucking awesome!
I love those two :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
This seems like the perfect time to bring up The Loophole


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaM2JTkDREI&feature=youtu.be


_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 1:36:39 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		I really didn't wanted to comment on the study as my point was that social enviroment and family enviroment have more impact than sex ed. lessons, but I could not avoid noticing some things
groups of 150 elements is not very accurate for a statistical investigation, and this is more important when the human factor is fundamental like in this case, another thing is the study says that AO reduces the chances for them to have sex but says nothing about what happens in terms of pregnancies and STDs.

now a personal consideration... half of them having sex under 14? WTF!!!!

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 1:59:04 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

I personally know several parents whose children have asked them for birth control because they were sexually active and the parents refused to allow them to get BC because "it would be like telling them its ok to have sex. They need to know its a sin." That attitude is not uncommon in the southern area.


This was pretty much my mother's attitude in the 80s, good Catholic that she used to be.

She's evolved.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 2:03:33 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

The only way abstinence could be even comparable to science is

1. to guess the outcome: which is no pregnancies or STD's will occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control.

2. then test the outcome: count the number of pregnancies and STD's that occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control.


Yes, then you'd get the Perfect Use versus Typical Use comparison which you mentioned earlier and wiki has here for everything but abstinence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table



(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 2:04:44 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Most of the studies proclaiming abstinence education does not work are published by places like Naral, planned parenthood, National Journal of Sex Research - ie., places that have a position to push.

There are sufficient studies that find abstinence education work.

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=382798
also reported here:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/02/abstinence.study/

And if you look at the NIH grant for this study, it lists other studies also supporting the efficacy of abstinence education.


Are you really arguing that this study proves anything?

Flaws with this study:
studying abstinence based solely on self reporting.
studying the outcome of abstinence only education for only 2 years in 6th and 7th graders.

A real study on the outcomes of abstinence only education:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22022362

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 2:44:07 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
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Status: offline 		Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

...Among the 48 states in this analysis (all U.S. states except North Dakota and Wyoming), 21 states stressed abstinence-only education in their 2005 state laws and/or policies (level 3), 7 states emphasized abstinence education (level 2), 11 states covered abstinence in the context of comprehensive sex education (level 1), and 9 states did not mention abstinence (level 0) in their state laws or policies (Figure 1).

...The level of abstinence education (no provision, covered, promoted, stressed) was positively correlated with both teen pregnancy ... and teen birth ... rates (Table 4), indicating that abstinence education in the U.S. does not cause abstinence behavior. To the contrary, teens in states that prescribe more abstinence education are actually more likely to become pregnant (Figure 2).



Mean teen pregnancy, abortion and birth rates by level of prescribed abstinence education.

[Rates = numbers per 1000 girls 15–19 years old: shown are means ±2 SE]. Top panel: Teen pregnancies [outliers: #28 Nevada and #29 New Hampshire]; Middle panel: Teen abortions [outlier: #32 New York]; Bottom panel: Teen births. All outliers were included in the statistical analyses. A multivariate analysis of teen pregnancy and birth rates identified the level of abstinence education as a significant influence on teen pregnancy and birth rates across states.

...Footnotes

Competing Interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.

Funding: This work was funded by the University of Georgia Research Foundation. The funders had no role in study design, data collection and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.

Read more: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 3:26:39 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

CDC shows most of the cooties down in the conservative southern states:

The kids seem a little liberal with the pussy though, hah?

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats11/figspecpro.htm


My impression is those down in the conservative Southern states take politeness seriously and I believe this accounts for why they are supportive of abstinence only sex education.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 4:41:31 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though.

Opposite of true.
The thing about human intuition is that it's often wrong, this is why checking one's assumptions against reality is so imperative.
The belligerent refusal to do so by a very opinionated portion of our country has made us the laughingstock of the first world on this and a number of other issues.


How does not having sex result in pregnancy and/or STD's?


If you are truly abstinent from sexual activity (other than masturbation, which the evangelicals and orthodox Catholics might believe make you blind, but it doesn't) then yeah, the odds of getting pregnant are zero. As far as an STD, you can get an STD if you come into contact with the blood or other serum of someone infected, you can get HIV from blood to blood contact, you could get syphillis or gonorrhea if you kissed someone who was infected in their mouth or throat (not likely, but could happen), but the odds of getting an std without sex is pretty small.

The fallacy of abstinence as a solution in the idea that you turn off sexual activity all that easily. 90% of people are not virgins when they marry, which means the drivel about being pure and no sex outside marriage in practice is a failure. People aren't saying abstinence doesn't prevent pregnancy or STDs, they are saying that Abstinence taught as the solution to STD's and pregnancy fails the effectiveness test, if 90% of people have sex before they are married. If it worked, the virgin rate would be 90%, but it isn't.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 4:58:17 PM   
njlauren


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Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Most of the studies proclaiming abstinence education does not work are published by places like Naral, planned parenthood, National Journal of Sex Research - ie., places that have a position to push.

There are sufficient studies that find abstinence education work.

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=382798
also reported here:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/02/abstinence.study/

And if you look at the NIH grant for this study, it lists other studies also supporting the efficacy of abstinence education.


I think you need to read the studies you just put links for, they kind of prove the point about abstinence sex ed.

The first study had as a sample around 700 black kids in the inner city, which as a sample is suspect, because though this is thought to be a target demographic for teen sex, it is still such a small sample. The other problem is it wasn't a long term study, it simply showed that in the short term, less kids had sex after abstinence only ed then full sex ed, but it didn't look at the long term.

The CNN study was 15000 kids, and it was long term, and what it found was that abstinence only ed delayed kids having sex, but it didn't prevent them ultimately from having it. It was about 18 months in other studies, 24 months in another, but the key fact is, it didn't stop them from having sex...and numerous studies, by university researchers, have shown that kids who had either abstinence only ed or were for example members of the promise keepers and the like with purity pledges, when they eventually had sex were more likely to not use protection and such. Worse, a lot of kids imbued with the nonsense about virginity at marriage, go out of their way to stretch the limits of what sex is, they will have oral sex and anal sex and insist since it isn't vaginal, it 'doesn't count', when anal sex especially has the risk of std's (oral does as well, if somewhat less than other forms).

The reality of people and sex is the idea that people should remain abstinent until marriage as a means of preventing pregnancy and STD's fsils the reality check.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 5:04:51 PM   
imin2bdsm


Posts: 23
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		I have not read all the posts in this thread, so if this has already been covered I apologize for the repost.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-virgin-births-pregnancy-study-20131223,0,3542250.story#axzz2odHYAUGU

My favorite quote:
"Women with “virgin pregnancy” were twice as likely as other pregnant women to have signed a chastity pledge, with more than 30% reporting they had done so. Their parents, in turn, were more likely to say they had trouble discussing sex or birth control with their children, the survey showed."

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-virgin-births-pregnancy-study-20131223,0,3542250.story#ixzz2odIYJjNR

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 5:07:56 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline 		The best form of sex ed is probably what is known as abstinence plus, where they stress that sex is a very important thing, that it has consequences, emotional and physical, and that it is best to wait until you feel you are mature enough to handle it. With abstinence plus, they also give kids real information about sex, about birth control methods, and about how STD's are spread, and it is all done with scientific backing, not moral teaching of the bible or demonizing sex, but rather that sex is a powerful thing that has responsibilities with it. The abstinence portion gets kids to thinking, rather than being the Reefer madness of the abstinence only, God will get you if you have sex before marriage that is taught in the hookworm belt, and the rest helps them hopefully prepare if they do decide to have sex. They won't, as is common with abstinence only kids, think condoms are ineffective (in one state's program, might have been louisiana, they claimed condoms failed 50% of the time, which is ludicrous), or claim having sex before marriage causes severe psychological problems and other drivel....kids who have knowledge understand having oral or anal sex has its risks and is sex, same as vaginal sex, whereas the ones who had the bible based morality thrown at them, think being virginal in the vagina is the key thing (note: being good ole Christian thinking, it is the woman who is soiled by sex, boys are nod nod wink wink, since you don't know if they are a virgin).

The problem with abstinence isn't that it doesn't work to help prevent STD's or pregnancy, it is that stressing it or thumping the bible doesn't prevent people from having sex, pure and simple, if 90% of the people are not virgins when they get married, how is abstinence effective in preventing possibilities of pregnancy or STD's? Whereas sex ed that stressed facts and responsibility works even if the person starts having sex, something you can't say for biblical morality or thumping the bible.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 8:51:38 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The poster child for ABSTINENCE is Bristol Palin, her bastard child born out of wedlock, and her absentee baby-daddy.
Now just stop embarrassing yourself suggesting that it's even a valid strategy for controlling one's reproduction.


The poster child for not engaging in sexual intercourse is someone who has sexual intercourse?!?

Boy, how does that work?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 8:53:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Abstinence is scientific. If a penis doesn't go near your vagina, it's quite a bit more difficult to get pregnant. Since we know that penis-in-vagina intercourse, including male orgasm tends to lead to pregnancy, not doing that prevents pregnancy. That's based on science.

Yes but sex is overwhelming, with my first girlfriend there was so much passion that nothing stopped us, not even an audience.


So, you didn't abstain, then?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 8:55:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
That's really your response? You claim it IS science, make a philosophical argument to prove it and then disparage the OP?
Science is based on hypothesis (an educated guess concerning a specific outcome) and facts that are provable through experiment (testing the hypothesis to see if the outcome you guess is correct.)
The only way abstinence could be even comparable to science is
1. to guess the outcome: which is no pregnancies or STD's will occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control.
2. then test the outcome: count the number of pregnancies and STD's that occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control.
Science has proven that there is no statistical difference in the pregnancy/STD rates of teens who say they practice abstinence and those who say they do not. They are statistically the same except those practicing abstinence are less likely to use condoms or any other method of BC.
So even if it was a science (which it is not), based on the scientific method it is a failure as a birth control method.


Good Lord! So, how many people who abstain from sex get pregnant or STD's?

All science has proven, is that there are an awful lot of teens who lie about abstaining from sex. If you have sex, you aren't abstaining.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 9:01:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though.

Opposite of true.
The thing about human intuition is that it's often wrong, this is why checking one's assumptions against reality is so imperative.
The belligerent refusal to do so by a very opinionated portion of our country has made us the laughingstock of the first world on this and a number of other issues.

How does not having sex result in pregnancy and/or STD's?

If you are truly abstinent from sexual activity (other than masturbation, which the evangelicals and orthodox Catholics might believe make you blind, but it doesn't) then yeah, the odds of getting pregnant are zero.


EXACTLY!! Thank you!

quote:

As far as an STD, you can get an STD if you come into contact with the blood or other serum of someone infected, you can get HIV from blood to blood contact, you could get syphillis or gonorrhea if you kissed someone who was infected in their mouth or throat (not likely, but could happen), but the odds of getting an std without sex is pretty small.


Agreed. I have noted as much in posts, too.

quote:

The fallacy of abstinence as a solution in the idea that you turn off sexual activity all that easily. 90% of people are not virgins when they marry, which means the drivel about being pure and no sex outside marriage in practice is a failure. People aren't saying abstinence doesn't prevent pregnancy or STDs, they are saying that Abstinence taught as the solution to STD's and pregnancy fails the effectiveness test, if 90% of people have sex before they are married. If it worked, the virgin rate would be 90%, but it isn't.


What people on here aren't understanding, is that I'm saying abstinence is the only way to prevent pregnancy (outside of sterilization) and, as you have noted, is pretty damn good at preventing STD transmission, too. I've also stated that I'm not for limiting sex education to Abstinence Only.

90% of people aren't virgins when they marry?!? 90%?!?!? Isn't that figure a bit low? lol

Seems like the whole "white bride's dress" doesn't stand for what it was supposed to stand for, eh?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 9:08:50 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The poster child for ABSTINENCE is Bristol Palin, her bastard child born out of wedlock, and her absentee baby-daddy.
Now just stop embarrassing yourself suggesting that it's even a valid strategy for controlling one's reproduction.


The poster child for not engaging in sexual intercourse is someone who has sexual intercourse?!?

Boy, how does that work?




Her mom promotes abstinence only sex ed, and Alaska schools as far as I know teach abstinence only, so she is a perfect example of how abstinence only fails. We are told that family environment is the best regulator of sexual behavior, yet she came from a family that is supposedly staunchly Christian, no sex before marriage, you name it, and the kid still got knocked up at 17.......which basically belies the idea that families should be responsible for teaching about sex.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 9:10:58 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though.

Opposite of true.
The thing about human intuition is that it's often wrong, this is why checking one's assumptions against reality is so imperative.
The belligerent refusal to do so by a very opinionated portion of our country has made us the laughingstock of the first world on this and a number of other issues.

How does not having sex result in pregnancy and/or STD's?

If you are truly abstinent from sexual activity (other than masturbation, which the evangelicals and orthodox Catholics might believe make you blind, but it doesn't) then yeah, the odds of getting pregnant are zero.


EXACTLY!! Thank you!

quote:

As far as an STD, you can get an STD if you come into contact with the blood or other serum of someone infected, you can get HIV from blood to blood contact, you could get syphillis or gonorrhea if you kissed someone who was infected in their mouth or throat (not likely, but could happen), but the odds of getting an std without sex is pretty small.


Agreed. I have noted as much in posts, too.

quote:

The fallacy of abstinence as a solution in the idea that you turn off sexual activity all that easily. 90% of people are not virgins when they marry, which means the drivel about being pure and no sex outside marriage in practice is a failure. People aren't saying abstinence doesn't prevent pregnancy or STDs, they are saying that Abstinence taught as the solution to STD's and pregnancy fails the effectiveness test, if 90% of people have sex before they are married. If it worked, the virgin rate would be 90%, but it isn't.


What people on here aren't understanding, is that I'm saying abstinence is the only way to prevent pregnancy (outside of sterilization) and, as you have noted, is pretty damn good at preventing STD transmission, too. I've also stated that I'm not for limiting sex education to Abstinence Only.

90% of people aren't virgins when they marry?!? 90%?!?!? Isn't that figure a bit low? lol

Seems like the whole "white bride's dress" doesn't stand for what it was supposed to stand for, eh?


I didn't think you were promoting abstinence only, and you are correct that if someone abstains from having sex, not likely to get pregnant or get an STD.....well, unless God decides to create another son or daughter:)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/26/2013 9:22:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
I didn't think you were promoting abstinence only, and you are correct that if someone abstains from having sex, not likely to get pregnant or get an STD.....well, unless God decides to create another son or daughter:)


lol

I alluded to the same in a post, too.

I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you of accusing me of accusing... shit, I got lost. lol I was hoping for someone to see how we were agreeing and, perhaps, get the understanding of what I was saying.

As far as Palin goes, farglebargle said that Bristol was the poster child for abstinence. He didn't say she was the poster child for "abstinence only" education. Had that been the comment, I'd have either posted in agreement, or not posted at all.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/27/2013 12:59:37 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Abstinence is scientific. If a penis doesn't go near your vagina, it's quite a bit more difficult to get pregnant. Since we know that penis-in-vagina intercourse, including male orgasm tends to lead to pregnancy, not doing that prevents pregnancy. That's based on science.

Yes but sex is overwhelming, with my first girlfriend there was so much passion that nothing stopped us, not even an audience.


So, you didn't abstain, then?



ok this is a rethorical question... but what's the point?

p.s. I'm talking about being 17 almost 18 not under 14 like in the study linked by Phydeaux... I mean for that age it's probably they just have really nothing interesting to do.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 120
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