RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... )

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RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 6:36:28 PM

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
This is big. PUSHBACK against all the crazy religious nuts.
I don't know if it'll get any traction and go anywhere, but I like the cut of her jib!

quote:

Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-CA) has introduced a bill - Repealing Ineffective and Incomplete Abstinence-Only Program Funding Act of 2013 (HR 3774) - this week that would end federal funding of abstinence-only programs and support comprehensive sexuality education.
"We need to get serious about educating our young people about sex," said Lee. "Abstinence-only programs fail to address the challenge of unplanned pregnancies and sexually-transmitted infections among our youth, which have reached a critical level. We must ensure that we provide comprehensive sex education programs that have been proven to work, instead of throwing money away on programs that don't."

http://msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=14772

"Abstinence-only programs fail to address the challenge of unplanned pregnancies" and STD's. Um, if you're abstaining, there will likely be few challenges from unplanned pregnancies and STD's, right?
I know what she was saying, but found it to be a bit humorous.

Something which idiots like Sarah Palin have found out the hard way is that abstinence is the least effective form of birth control.

Really? How many births have occurred when abstinence was practiced? How many births have occurred when other forms of birth control were practiced? I'm going to hazard a guess that fewer pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence than from other forms of birth control.

Call me crazy, but, there is only one case of a pregnancy when abstinence was practiced, and even that case is in question...

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 7:20:36 PM

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
I think people who post vague comments shouldn't make assumptions about another persons motivations when asked to clarify what they mean. But thanks for answering the question anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
"In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.[1] In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available."

I.e. don't apply the most idiotic possible interpretation to thompsonx's statement.

Now lets try another one, thompsonx finds that someone's used the most idiotic possible interpretation of his statement. According to the principle of charity should he assume:

A. he's talking to an idiot.

B. he's talking to someone who's engaging in a common dishonest tactic.

So hopefully it's now more clear how thompsonx arrived at his assumption.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 7:34:18 PM

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

"In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.[1] In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available."

This seems to assume one has no prior knowledge of the speaker. Many CM posters, though, are known quantities.

Charity, laudable though it is, seems an odd standard to invoke on an online forum, particularly one rooted in BDSM.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 7:40:32 PM

Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Here's a question I'd like to know the answer to...and I'll accept whatever the truth is...

...who has more unwanted pregnancies or STD infections...children of liberal parents or children of conservative parents?

Unplanned pregnancies and teen pregnancies are most common in states considered conservative, and rates have gone up since abstinence only became the norm in sex ed.
STD infection rates is more distributed but the rates in the southern conservative states are above the national average.

To be blunt, Ken, this is exactly what I'd expect you to say...but if you've got some data from credible sources (meaning, not some progressive website bullshit) I'd be happy to check it out.

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/state-comparisions.asp?ID=3&sID=18&sort=rank#table

Next time try to be a tad less insulting and use google yourself.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, Ken, but the simple fact of the matter is that in the past I've never seen you support conservatives but I have seen you spin data and use questionable sources of information just to take a shot at them. So please excuse me if I consider that in any of your responses to a post.

Other than that, I appreciate you offering up the link. Thanks. I'll take a look and if I find anything I want to post on, I'll do so.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 8:38:59 PM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Here's a question I'd like to know the answer to...and I'll accept whatever the truth is...

...who has more unwanted pregnancies or STD infections...children of liberal parents or children of conservative parents?

Unplanned pregnancies and teen pregnancies are most common in states considered conservative, and rates have gone up since abstinence only became the norm in sex ed.
STD infection rates is more distributed but the rates in the southern conservative states are above the national average.

To be blunt, Ken, this is exactly what I'd expect you to say...but if you've got some data from credible sources (meaning, not some progressive website bullshit) I'd be happy to check it out.

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/state-comparisions.asp?ID=3&sID=18&sort=rank#table

Next time try to be a tad less insulting and use google yourself.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, Ken, but the simple fact of the matter is that in the past I've never seen you support conservatives but I have seen you spin data and use questionable sources of information just to take a shot at them. So please excuse me if I consider that in any of your responses to a post.

Other than that, I appreciate you offering up the link. Thanks. I'll take a look and if I find anything I want to post on, I'll do so.

So next time use google yourself instead of demanding sources.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 9:46:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

With the exception of rape and incest those are a product of ignorance and have nothing to do with political leanings

I remain unconvinced that rape and incest are political either.

They are not the product of ignorance in most cases. But I agree that they also have nothing to do with politics.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 10:06:15 PM

Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Here's a question I'd like to know the answer to...and I'll accept whatever the truth is...

...who has more unwanted pregnancies or STD infections...children of liberal parents or children of conservative parents?

Unplanned pregnancies and teen pregnancies are most common in states considered conservative, and rates have gone up since abstinence only became the norm in sex ed.
STD infection rates is more distributed but the rates in the southern conservative states are above the national average.

To be blunt, Ken, this is exactly what I'd expect you to say...but if you've got some data from credible sources (meaning, not some progressive website bullshit) I'd be happy to check it out.

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/state-comparisions.asp?ID=3&sID=18&sort=rank#table

Next time try to be a tad less insulting and use google yourself.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, Ken, but the simple fact of the matter is that in the past I've never seen you support conservatives but I have seen you spin data and use questionable sources of information just to take a shot at them. So please excuse me if I consider that in any of your responses to a post.

Other than that, I appreciate you offering up the link. Thanks. I'll take a look and if I find anything I want to post on, I'll do so.

So next time use google yourself instead of demanding sources.

Fine, Ken. Don't reply to my posts with unsubstantiated data and I won't insult you by asking for credible sources.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 10:22:59 PM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Here's a question I'd like to know the answer to...and I'll accept whatever the truth is...

...who has more unwanted pregnancies or STD infections...children of liberal parents or children of conservative parents?

Unplanned pregnancies and teen pregnancies are most common in states considered conservative, and rates have gone up since abstinence only became the norm in sex ed.
STD infection rates is more distributed but the rates in the southern conservative states are above the national average.

To be blunt, Ken, this is exactly what I'd expect you to say...but if you've got some data from credible sources (meaning, not some progressive website bullshit) I'd be happy to check it out.

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/state-comparisions.asp?ID=3&sID=18&sort=rank#table

Next time try to be a tad less insulting and use google yourself.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, Ken, but the simple fact of the matter is that in the past I've never seen you support conservatives but I have seen you spin data and use questionable sources of information just to take a shot at them. So please excuse me if I consider that in any of your responses to a post.

Other than that, I appreciate you offering up the link. Thanks. I'll take a look and if I find anything I want to post on, I'll do so.

So next time use google yourself instead of demanding sources.

Fine, Ken. Don't reply to my posts with unsubstantiated data and I won't insult you by asking for credible sources.

You asked a question. I answered the question then you decided for some reason to insult me for answering the question you asked, perhaps the truth offended your preconceptions. But in any case you didn't just ask for a source but chose to both attack me and then demand I do your googling for you. In the future you might want to nto do that since it is kind of insulting to be told the truth isn't credible simply because you don't like the fact that it's coming from a leftist.

Also note that your claims in this thread and in most, all?, other threads you participate in are completely unsourced. So in the future you can expect me to be demanding credible sources from you.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/23/2013 10:24:29 PM >

(in reply to RottenJohnny)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/23/2013 11:45:16 PM

Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
...it is kind of insulting to be told the truth isn't credible simply because you don't like the fact that it's coming from a leftist.

I'm not questioning the data because it came from a leftist. I'm questioning it because it came from you. That's what happens when people think you're not always honest. Sorry if that offends you but I call 'em how I see 'em.

quote:

Also note that your claims in this thread and in most, all?, other threads you participate in are completely unsourced.

And what claims would those be here, Ken? That some of my friends got the clap when we were teenagers? Just how would you like me to source that? Do you think I can find that with Google?

quote:

So in the future you can expect me to be demanding credible sources from you.

Have at it, dude. But you're probably gonna get bored trying to nitpick everything I talk about after you realize most of what I say is based on personal opinion or experience and any other claims I make, I typically source right away.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 7:04:42 AM

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
And what claims would those be here, Ken? That some of my friends got the clap when we were teenagers? Just how would you like me to source that? Do you think I can find that with Google?

Maybe not, but the NSA probably can.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to RottenJohnny)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 8:37:06 AM

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
And what claims would those be here, Ken? That some of my friends got the clap when we were teenagers? Just how would you like me to source that? Do you think I can find that with Google?

Maybe not, but the NSA probably can.

LOL! Thanks for a welcome chuckle on a sleepy day.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 9:32:36 AM

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Something which idiots like Sarah Palin have found out the hard way is that abstinence is the least effective form of birth control.

I'm going to hazard a guess that fewer pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence than from other forms of birth control.

You'd be dead wrong. This yet another of the many instances I've pointed out to you where it's imperative to actually look at the data instead of just assuming. The data has been around for decades, instead of spreading ignorance ACTUALLY GO AND LOOK.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 10:29:20 AM

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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Should someone being so gullible as to believe that kids won't have sex disqualify them from participation in the discussion? I mean, if they're that out of touch with reality, what's the chance they're valid contributors and not just trolling ( or perhaps deranged by their religious dogma, which is the same thing effectively )?

"Oh, Now you're just being silly!" and then get back to the grown-ups talking.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/24/2013 10:30:09 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 10:59:13 AM

Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
And what claims would those be here, Ken? That some of my friends got the clap when we were teenagers? Just how would you like me to source that? Do you think I can find that with Google?

Maybe not, but the NSA probably can.

Probably. But you'll need security clearance level "VD" to see it.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 1:36:26 PM

Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

"In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.[1] In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others' statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available."

This seems to assume one has no prior knowledge of the speaker. Many CM posters, though, are known quantities.

No, I'd like people to use their brains more, I'm certainty not advocating for less.

I'm asking (as someone who's spent years trying to explain to the people around here that they don't get to inform me of my position and as someone who's watching people here generally talk around each other) that you entertain the possibility that perhaps your fellow posters aren't quite the known quantities that one might assume.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Charity, laudable though it is, seems an odd standard to invoke on an online forum, particularly one rooted in BDSM.

Not charity, "the principle of charity" two different things. I'm really just asking "guys can stop it with the fucking strawmen already, it's a waste of everybodies time!"

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/24/2013 8:39:57 PM

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Something which idiots like Sarah Palin have found out the hard way is that abstinence is the least effective form of birth control.

I'm going to hazard a guess that fewer pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence than from other forms of birth control.

You'd be dead wrong. This yet another of the many instances I've pointed out to you where it's imperative to actually look at the data instead of just assuming. The data has been around for decades, instead of spreading ignorance ACTUALLY GO AND LOOK.

How many pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence? How can any pregnancies happen from practicing abstinence?

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/25/2013 4:18:03 AM

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Something which idiots like Sarah Palin have found out the hard way is that abstinence is the least effective form of birth control.

I'm going to hazard a guess that fewer pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence than from other forms of birth control.

You'd be dead wrong. This yet another of the many instances I've pointed out to you where it's imperative to actually look at the data instead of just assuming. The data has been around for decades, instead of spreading ignorance ACTUALLY GO AND LOOK.

How many pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence? How can any pregnancies happen from practicing abstinence?

The same way we can "practice" going to church but miss a Sunday or two or practice going to work but a take a day off. The same way a lawyer practices law but doesn't do legal work everyday. Just because you slip up, take a day off, or have a moment where you give in does not mean it is not your "practice." It may be an inconsistent practice but it is a practice. Since part of the definition of practice is that it is meant to "improve or maintain proficiency" it stands to reason that results will vary. An individual can have a good practice or a lousy practice. That is why people practicing abstinence (without a backup plan) often do get pregnant.

prac·tice /ˈpraktəs/ verb

1. perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to improve or maintain one's proficiency.

2. carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly.

https://www.google.com/#q=practicing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/25/2013 4:47:17 AM

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The same way we can "practice" going to church but miss a Sunday or two or practice going to work but a take a day off. The same way a lawyer practices law but doesn't do legal work everyday. Just because you slip up, take a day off, or have a moment where you give in does not mean it is not your "practice." It may be an inconsistent practice but it is a practice. Since part of the definition of practice is that it is meant to "improve or maintain proficiency" it stands to reason that results will vary. An individual can have a good practice or a lousy practice. That is why people practicing abstinence (without a backup plan) often do get pregnant.
prac·tice /ˈpraktəs/ verb
1. perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to improve or maintain one's proficiency.
2. carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly.
https://www.google.com/#q=practicing

Abstinence is one of those things, though, that is pretty black and white. If you're having sex, you're not abstaining. Thus, you're not "practicing abstinence."

And, just to add a general FYI, I'm not for "abstinence only" sex education. Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/25/2013 5:50:05 AM

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The same way we can "practice" going to church but miss a Sunday or two or practice going to work but a take a day off. The same way a lawyer practices law but doesn't do legal work everyday. Just because you slip up, take a day off, or have a moment where you give in does not mean it is not your "practice." It may be an inconsistent practice but it is a practice. Since part of the definition of practice is that it is meant to "improve or maintain proficiency" it stands to reason that results will vary. An individual can have a good practice or a lousy practice. That is why people practicing abstinence (without a backup plan) often do get pregnant.
prac·tice /ˈpraktəs/ verb
1. perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to improve or maintain one's proficiency.
2. carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly.
https://www.google.com/#q=practicing

Abstinence is one of those things, though, that is pretty black and white. If you're having sex, you're not abstaining. Thus, you're not "practicing abstinence."

And, just to add a general FYI, I'm not for "abstinence only" sex education. Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though.

Calling abstinence birth control is like calling bald a hair color. (no offense) If you don't have any (or are not getting any) then you are really not part of the target demographic (ie- you don't need birth control.) Birth control is to prevent pregnancy in sexually active people.

But if abstinence is to be compared as a birth control method it would have to be evaluated the same way every other birth control method is. "Perfect use" vs "typical use." Perfect use effectiveness (that is using it correctly and without fail 100% of the time) for abstinence may well be 100% but its typical use is most likely not even close to that.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it'... - 12/25/2013 5:57:11 AM

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How many pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence? How can any pregnancies happen from practicing abstinence?

Ask of the mighty prophet google that the scales may fall from your eyes.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

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