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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 5:15:31 AM

Posts: 8641
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Let's hope that you don't confront others with a gun; that might be a good start.

This story illustrates how gun ownership punishes the owner and the victim. There's downside risk all around.

Mr. Westbrook is a victim of his own actions.

Mr. Westbrook was probably not competent enough to be responsible for his own actions.

However, what is wrong with the precaution of staying in one's home behind closed and locked doors until law enforcement arrives?
And why wouldn't you have lightsby your doors to see at night?
He couldn't see him in the dark.
Had a light been switched on they would have seen it was a flashlight.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 5:25:43 AM

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From: Missoula Montana
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Speaking as a certified firearms instructor who has over 25 years experience teaching proper use of lethal force to civilians, I believe that according to GA law the prosecutor made the correct decision. Hendrix was on his own property where he had a right to be. Westbrook advanced on him with a weapon in hand (yes, a flashlight can be a deadly weapon, can be used as a bludgeon and some are even marketed as such) after being warned repeatedly. He had no way of knowing that Westbrook was mentally diminished.

However there may still be legal consequences for Hendrix. There will almost certainly be a lawsuit, which will probably bankrupt him even if he doesn't lose. Which he might, as the standards of proof are very different, and good lawyers are very expensive. He can't afford a "dream team" like OJ, and OJ lost the civil trial.

Hendrix made 2 tactical errors, which I am sure will haunt him forever. With proper training he might not have made those errors. He left the relative safety of his house for the unknown of his yard. And he failed to clearly identify his target. He should have had a flashlight of his own. A 100+ lumen flashlight shined in the eyes is a non-lethal weapon by itself, serving to both identify the threat and often to eliminate it as the person reflexively closes their eyes and turns away from the light.

Under Georgia law, tactical errors made in the heat of the moment do not disqualify one from standing their ground if a "reasonable person" (legal term) might have made those same errors under the same circumstance. Thus they do not rise to the level of negligence.

He cannot be faulted for not firing a warning shot. They are always a bad idea and may open one to prosecution for negligent discharge, as well as providing a prosecutor with ammunition for arguing that the shooter knew that he did not really need to use lethal force and was not truly in fear of his life.

GrizzlyBear

"Get off my lawn." --Clint Eastwood, in Gran Turino

(in reply to joether)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 5:58:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Is there no limit to the misrepresentations some people will descend to?

Yes.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 6:10:18 AM

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I would like to tell a story.

My nephew has paranoid schizophrenia. He was young and hadn't been regulated with meds, not really even diagnosed yet. He had an episode and ended up walking into my neighbors house in broad day light and just went and sat down on a chair in their livingroom but he didn't have anything in his hand. THe neighbors wife was alone, she didn't know him, came out of the bedroom to find a total stranger sitting in her living room. When he saw her he got up and left. She had went back to get a gun but he was gone. Now how scarey is that!!!??????
HE is a big kid too. Now If she had shot him I could have barely blamed her, how terrorizing, this was a very rural area too. Thankfully she didn't, I love my nephew and he is doing great now but the thing is, How did she know who he was, what he would do??

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 7:35:36 AM

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Some Gun owners seem to have an us v. them view of the world combined with an inner hatred and distrust of others. SYG laws make these types especially dangerous people.

It remains alien to me to approach another person with a loaded gun, ready to use it, especially when I don't know anything about the person I'm confronting.

I see cowardice, insecurities, paranoia, and impaired judgment on full display.

--------

Heretic:

The thing with Alzheimer's is the patients just don't understand what's happening to them in many cases. For instance my dad just thinks he's lost his memory and gotten old. Now that I've seen him go though this, I share your sentiment. In some ways this guy was spared, but that should not matter to most right-to-life conservatives who regard all life as "god given." (Unless of course you mistakenly wander into their yard.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/2/2014 7:37:16 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 7:47:43 AM

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quote:

So let's see what you left out. Sometime around 4am Westbrook tried to open Hendrix's door. Alarmed, Hendrix's fiancée called 911. Westbrook, after failing to gain entry by the front door, moved to the back of the house. At this point, Hendrix stepped out and challenged him. But Westbrook did not respond and instead advanced on Hendrix with what appeared to be a cylindrical pipe-like object in his hand.

That's the paranoid, I feel threatened and am armed with a gun view. Gun owners now, to exonerate themselves, are always going to tell a tale reflecting how they felt "threatened." Combine this defense with a dead witness -- then mix and stir.

The actual facts are that a young man in his 30s shot a lost 70 seventy year old man who was carrying a flashlight and afflicted with dementia.

It is exactly as GOTSTEELE inferred in his thread.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/2/2014 7:52:30 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 8:11:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Some Gun owners seem to have an us v. them view of the world combined with an inner hatred and distrust of others. SYG laws make these types especially dangerous people.

It remains alien to me to approach another person with a loaded gun, ready to use it, especially when I don't know anything about the person I'm confronting.

I see cowardice, insecurities, paranoia, and impaired judgment on full display.

--------

Heretic:

The thing with Alzheimer's is the patients just don't understand what's happening to them in many cases. For instance my dad just thinks he's lost his memory and gotten old. Now that I've seen him go though this, I share your sentiment. In some ways this guy was spared, but that should not matter to most right-to-life conservatives who regard all life as "god given." (Unless of course you mistakenly wander into their yard.)

You should read post 22. That sums it up quite well. You are right only in the sense that the shooting was avoidable. The rest is a lot of crap. There is no us vs them. In a state without SYG laws the same shit happens. It's just in a state with SYG it's one more excuse among all the rest of them for some dumbass to grasp for. If the juries are going to suck for it then what are you going to do ? Should we eliminate the insanity defenses along with SYG ?

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 8:16:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

That's the paranoid, I feel threatened and am armed with a gun view. Gun owners now, to exonerate themselves, are always going to tell a tale reflecting how they felt "threatened." Combine this defense with a dead witness -- then mix and stir.

That's just more if your crap. You paint everyone who owns a firearm with the same brush. I get it, you hate guns and especially their defensive use.

_____________________________

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 8:18:58 AM

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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

So let's see what you left out. Sometime around 4am Westbrook tried to open Hendrix's door. Alarmed, Hendrix's fiancée called 911. Westbrook, after failing to gain entry by the front door, moved to the back of the house. At this point, Hendrix stepped out and challenged him. But Westbrook did not respond and instead advanced on Hendrix with what appeared to be a cylindrical pipe-like object in his hand.

That's the paranoid, I feel threatened and am armed with a gun view. Gun owners now, to exonerate themselves, are always going to tell a tale reflecting how they felt "threatened." Combine this defense with a dead witness -- then mix and stir.

The actual facts are that a young man in his 30s shot a lost 70 seventy year old man who was carrying a flashlight and afflicted with dementia.

It is exactly as GOTSTEELE inferred in his thread.

Our gunuters believe that there is indeed a price to be paid for their "rights" and are quite willing to have our kids, ill people and the innocent pay it.

This fuck-up could have killed a baby holding a sippy-cup and the reaction from our gunuteria would be the same......

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/2/2014 8:20:41 AM >

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 8:52:29 AM

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From: California, USA
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Not that it is going to matter to the gundiots (those who are proud of their ignorance regarding firearms) but SYG has nothing to do with a case like this. It's castle doctrine, and that typically comes with immunity from civil lawsuit. The dead guy wasn't just in the yard, he had previously tried to gain access to the house at the front door

Here might be another shocker of a reality check. Alzheimer's victims are not automatically poor helpless creatures who just need pity and understanding. Some of them are flat out dangerous, and finding strangers in "his" home could easily be a trigger for violence.

It sucks that the cops took their own sweet time to respond to the call of an intruder trying to force entry to a home. It sucks that the patient escaped his care provider. It sucks that the shooter is going to have to live with it.

Case closed.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:01:03 AM

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maybe the shooter will suffer more than the family of the dead guy....
doubtful but I live in hope
killing an old man with a flash light shouldnt be treated like a misdemeanour

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:03:53 AM

kdsub

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quote:

So let's see what you left out. Sometime around 4am Westbrook tried to open Hendrix's door. Alarmed, Hendrix's fiancée called 911. Westbrook, after failing to gain entry by the front door, moved to the back of the house. At this point, Hendrix stepped out and challenged him. But Westbrook did not respond and instead advanced on Hendrix with what appeared to be a cylindrical pipe-like object in his hand.

Why the hell not call the police! Yes keep the gun handy in case he breaks in before the police get there but .... call the damn police and let them do their job... the dumb asshole.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/2/2014 9:04:17 AM >

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:06:13 AM

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It is amazing the efforts of anti gun nutters go to obfuscate an issue.
Attempting to equate a dark silhouette holding an item usable as a bludgeoning weapon that refuses to answer calls to identify themselves and advances on one in a threatening manner with an infant.... nuff said

I'm reminded of training in physical security. One of the items under the heading of
Deadly force is authorized when:

When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offense, one that involves imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm or injury (e.g., sniping), including the defense of other persons where deadly force is directed against the person threatening to commit the offense (e.g., murder, armed robbery, or aggravated assault).

The current wording is a bit more confused than when I was active duty but that is taken from DoDD 5210.56, April 1, 2011.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:10:19 AM

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From: Dirty Jersey
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"maybe the shooter will suffer more than the family of the dead guy....
doubtful but I live in hope
killing an old man with a flash light shouldnt be treated like a misdemeanour"

Or as if he had run down the old man with his car after seeing him from blocks away.....

What kind of charge would that bring?

Somehow killing someone through reckless shooting is different from killing someone through reckless driving.......in the minds of the lunatic fringe....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:12:13 AM

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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So let's see what you left out. Sometime around 4am Westbrook tried to open Hendrix's door. Alarmed, Hendrix's fiancée called 911. Westbrook, after failing to gain entry by the front door, moved to the back of the house. At this point, Hendrix stepped out and challenged him. But Westbrook did not respond and instead advanced on Hendrix with what appeared to be a cylindrical pipe-like object in his hand.

Why the hell not call the police! Yes keep the gun handy in case he breaks in before the police get there but .... call the damn police and let them do their job... the dumb asshole.

Butch

According to the lunatic fringe.....walking out into the night seeking strangers and confronting them is ok.....a good idea even....even if you kill someone innocent.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/2/2014 9:33:35 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:14:12 AM

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quote:

A lot.

Can you flesh that out a bit? It sounds as if Westbrook wasn't making much headway in his effort to enter the house. As long as he was outside and Hendrix was inside, what was the threat? And if Hendrix felt threatened, why venture out into the dark to confront a stranger?

quote:

Haven't seen you in awhile, does this mean you are doing better?

About the same, though I've finally gotten some decent pain management. Next adventure is scheduling what I hope will be my final surgery. Thanks for asking!

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:19:06 AM

kdsub

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Yea... its more like... Look at me honey ...I'm a big brave man with a big bad gun... watch me drill this sucker... This is what happens when you make guns readily available to people with inferiority complexes.

Yes I am going overboard... but damn how many senseless deaths do we have to endure before we take steps to stop this vigilante culture that gun happy fanatics are enabling?

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:33:14 AM

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they are just collateral damage to the 2nd amendment
they dont matter.

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(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:33:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
killing an old man with a flash light shouldnt be treated like a misdemeanour

Nope. In these circumstances, it shouldn't even be treated as an infraction.

Maybe the widow could sue the cops? Oh wait, never mind. They have no liability for not protecting people.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/2/2014 9:44:36 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So let's see what you left out. Sometime around 4am Westbrook tried to open Hendrix's door. Alarmed, Hendrix's fiancée called 911. Westbrook, after failing to gain entry by the front door, moved to the back of the house. At this point, Hendrix stepped out and challenged him. But Westbrook did not respond and instead advanced on Hendrix with what appeared to be a cylindrical pipe-like object in his hand.

Why the hell not call the police! Yes keep the gun handy in case he breaks in before the police get there but .... call the damn police and let them do their job... the dumb asshole.

Butch

They did call the police but the police took their own sweet time answering the call.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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