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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/12/2014 6:23:34 PM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

How about a little comic relief?

K.

(in reply to Tkman117)
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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/12/2014 6:59:02 PM   
Tkman117


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LOL

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/12/2014 7:11:11 PM   
BenevolentM


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GotSteel in reply to chatterbox24. GotSteel feels that I am too far gone to be saved by the devil, but there is hope for chatterbox24.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

What do you have? Claims that gods a bigot?


Recall what I have said on the devil. The devil speaks in half truths. As I pointed out earlier in a sense God is a bigot in that the devil, his progeny, and his fallen angels are discriminated against.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 1:02:13 AM   
BenevolentM


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On Free Choice of the Will by Saint Augustine
page 5-6

What must be believed about God.

E. Since you force me to acknowledge that we do not learn to do evil, then tell me why we do indeed do evil.

A. You propose a question which disturbed me exceedingly when I was still a youth, one which wearied me and drove me into heresy, and indeed caused my downfall. So hurt was I by this fall, and so buried in a heap of empty myths, that, had my love for discovering the truth not won me divine aid, I could not have arisen from my fall, or recovered my breath so as to use even my previous right to inquire after truth. And since my case was so zealously argued that I was acquitted in this trial, I will follow with you the very arguments by which I escaped. For God will aid us and will make us understand what we believe. This is the course prescribed by the prophet who says, "Unless you believe, you shall not understand," and we are aware that we consider this course good for us. We believe, moreover, that everything that exists is from God and yet that God is not the cause of sins. Yet it perplexes the mind how God should not be indirectly responsible for these sins, if they come from those very souls that God created and if, moreover, these souls are from God.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 2:37:07 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

Baptismal Vows http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02275a.htm

According to the Roman Ritual, at present in use, three questions are to be addressed to the person to be baptized, as follows: "Dost thou renounce Satan? and all his works? and all his pomps?"


Dost thou renounce Satan? and all his works? and all his pomps?

I do renounce.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 2:44:56 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

http://padrepiodevotions.org/prayers-of-padre-pio/

Prayer for the Intercession of St. Pio of Pietrelcina

Dear God, You generously blessed Your servant,
St. Pio of Pietrelcina,
with the gifts of the Spirit.
You marked his body with the five wounds
of Christ Crucified, as a powerful witness
to the saving Passion and Death of Your Son.
Endowed with the gift of discernment,
St. Pio labored endlessly in the confessional
for the salvation of souls.
With reverence and intense devotion
in the celebration of Mass,
he invited countless men and women
to a greater union with Jesus Christ
in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

Through the intercession of St. Pio of Pietrelcina,
I confidently beseech You to grant me
the grace of (here state your petition).


Say the Glory be to the Father prayer below three times, then say Amen.

quote:

Glory be to the Father prayer http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/glory2.htm

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 3:00:27 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Dost thou renounce Satan? and all his works? and all his pomps?


Discrimination against Satan is in the very baptismal vow which means there are limits to how anti-discriminatory you can be. Do not delude yourself. If you are a purist as anti-discrimination is concerned, you are a Satanist and you have disavowed God.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 4:00:57 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

While I agree with what you're saying man, you should have just let this thread die

The trouble is, BM won't let it die until he's moderated.
I thought we'd got rid of him once.
Now we have to put up with him dominating the scroller.
It's bloody mad that we still see posts on the scroller for people we've got on hide.

And it looks like CB is slowly being converted/brainwashed into this crap.
Or is CB a sock for BM?? Cuz it sure looks like it.

He's kept this one going for over 1,000 posts in one month already!


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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 4:20:33 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Why does what others believe bother you so much? Does it really matter?

As far as "a scroll dominated by people we have on ignore", welcome to my world.

I understand that you hate anything to do with religion but isn't that kind of antithetical to free speech?

Maybe some people hate some of the things you say? The guy's not hurting anyone.

Live and let live. No?







Screen captures still RULE! ya feel me?





_____________________________

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 4:49:16 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

Saint Augustine

buried in a heap of empty myths


Saint Augustine puts the cherry on the top there.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 6:14:00 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Why does what others believe bother you so much? Does it really matter?

As far as "a scroll dominated by people we have on ignore", welcome to my world.

I understand that you hate anything to do with religion but isn't that kind of antithetical to free speech?

Maybe some people hate some of the things you say? The guy's not hurting anyone.

Live and let live. No?






Actually, I don't hate anything to do with religion.
If you had read my posts you'd have known that I'm a Pagan.

What I hate is someone incessantly preaching it in a public place.
Whether that is a public forum, in a park, or on a street corner.

Surely I have as much right NOT to see and hear it as he has to spout it??
If I don't have the ability to permanently hide a person they should have enough respect of other people to not monopolise the facilities.
BM just rambles on and on and on, answering to himself.

Plus the fact that if a "normal"(!?) person should happen upon these boards, if the the main thing they see on the scroller is nothing but religious incoherent ramblings of someone who is obviously unhinged and talks to himself, what on earth are they going to think of the site??
I think BM and CB are misusing and abusing the boards.
By not engaging in any serious discourse of a subject (which is what the forums are for. No?), he is using it as a one-man tirade and soap-box.

So in my mind, not only is he consistently harrassing me by shoving his religion in my face, he is doing a disservice to the site and other potential members.


ETA: This is supposed to be a kink site isn't it??
If you saw the scroller you'd think it was a religious nut's personal website.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 4/13/2014 6:21:28 AM >

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 5:02:38 PM   
BenevolentM


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freedomdwarf1 are you prepared to show that the myth of political correctness has moral superiority over the teachings of the Church? The Church has been very careful over the centuries to ensure that its teachings are genuine and not grounded in the fashion of the day.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 7:04:33 PM   
BenevolentM


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It is unclear to me if freedomdwarf1 would be willing to take up the challenge since he has provided evidence that he prefers to cry like a baby. Shall I dry your tears?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Actually, I don't hate anything to do with religion.
If you had read my posts you'd have known that I'm a Pagan.


A Pagan atheist? or a Pagan Pagan?

I am reminded of a scene in the film Mars Attacks (1996) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116996/ where a man who was once the World Champion in boxing took on a platoon. He was manly and his purpose was moral. In the film it was the boy who ran to save his grandmother, a moral purpose that was even more noble, who defeated the Martians. The Martians laughed at us proclaiming that they were legion.

I have been weaving a web. Naturally you are a humble gardener who is unaware of such things.

As rambling is concerned. I think you freedomdwarf1 ramble as I have found nothing especially meaningful in anything you have written.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 7:32:34 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

freedomdwarf1 are you prepared to show that the myth of political correctness has moral superiority over the teachings of the Church? The Church has been very careful over the centuries to ensure that its teachings are genuine and not grounded in the fashion of the day.

Not necessarily, the problem with church teachings is that they often lie on a foundation that basically boils down to 'this is the way it always has been, so it should be". The problem is that church teachings at their root often are not based in scripture for example, but rather in the cultural mores of those who wrote them, and it can paint the church into a corner or lead to, quite frankly, a church where the teaching is promoted from the alter while church officials basically tacitly admit it doesn't work. The church is against artificial birth control (which is not scriptural, it is based in concepts of natural law and of the nature of sexual intercourse that are rooted in the cultural background of those who wrote it), yet in practical reality they know damn well few Catholics, at least in the industrial west, pay attention to it, yet they don't ask people if they use contraception, they don't shun a family that has no or 1 or 2 kids....

Likewise, the church is against divorce, they say it is a sin, goes against Christ's teachings and is a teaching of their own, yet the church has basically done just that by making annulments almost trivial (in the US alone, the church grants 50,000 annulments a year....that is not an annulment, that is divorce). Annulment is supposed to literally make it as if the marriage never happened, and it is supposed to be used only where there are serious issues in the marriage, like a spouse refusing to have the children to grow up catholic, refusal to perform intercourse to try and procreate, outright fraud (ie spouse presented himself/herself as Catholic, turns out they weren't), it is very limited scope (and I will admit that the grounds for annulment I have given may not apply to the church, some of these are valid in civic law, like the fraud one)....but then you have something like Newt Gingrich, on marriage number 3, where the church granted annulments to two marriages, including one that had produced kids, which is a no no if annulment means the marriage never happened (what happens to the kids? In the church's eyes are they bastards?). In a time and place where people lived into their 30's, a marriage might last 10 or 15 years for the most part, in a modern world where people are living into their 80's, just not as easy to have "til death do you part"..then, too given how many marriages split up, rigidly hanging onto the no divorce thing would end up costing them members. So they took annulment and made it almost but not quite as easy to get as a civic divorce, for all the talk of how difficult a process it is, the 50,000 annulments a year say it isn't that difficult.


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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 7:57:27 PM   
njlauren


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To answer the original question as framed in the header,morality is in some ways ingrained into us as human beings. The altruism that is supposed to be part of religious teaching (the golden rule, the teachings in charity and helping others comes to mind) is apparently hard wired inside human beings, the instincts to help someone else, especially a child, and it is about survival as a species. The problem with morality is when it cannot pass a rational test on helping human beings thrive or otherwise move forward as a species. The morality around sex before marriage once meant something, in a time and place where disease would be unchecked, where an unmarried mother was a disaster to the cultural structure, when not knowing the provenance of child was a bad thing, that moral law made sense, because it protected against real ills. However, today, where marriage is not contract where the bride is purchased and virginity is part of the bride price, but rather where marriage is done in love, having sex before marriage can help insure the couple stays together (sexual incompatibility is a big cause of divorce and issues in the marriage).

The morality of not eating pork in Judaism or shellfish and such were driven both by health concerns and also that nomadic life doesn't work well with keeping pigs, there was a practical reason for those rules that today from that standpoint don't make sense.

In Islam, the rules against interest were put in place to keep bankers and the well off from making money off the poorer people by charging interest that basically kept the lower classes in debt to the rich, it was a moral law that was designed to try and make the lives of the poor more easy and stop the greed of the well off from hurting the poor. Whether it is the best solution is debatable, but it had a real reason in preventing harm.

The misogynistic stuff in morality about women is likewise cultural. The harsh rules against women in Islam is an example of cultural law,that was more than likely Bedoin nonsense grafted onto the faith, which has parallels with women's roles in Judaism. There is religious morality that says women cannot be priests (Catholic Church, Anglican churches outside England), that they don't have what it takes and to have female priests is blasphemy (which if you understand the origin of certain words, like Testimony, comes down to women not having the balls, literally, to be a priest....don't believe me? Friend of mine kept her ordination with the Presbyterians after SRS, they wanted to take away her ordination, arguing that when she took the oath of ordination, that the power of that came no shit from having male genitals, until she cited scripture that said Eunuchs were above them all..the word "Testimony" literally comes from the same root as testes, and it is rooted in ancient tradition that men gave 'testimony' while grabbing their your know whats, which meant swearing on his balls......

So how do you differentiate on which morality is useful and which is not? You apply a needs test to it, and ask what harm does it prevent, what good does it do? You look at Catholic morality of not using birth control, and what you see is no proven benefit and a lot of ills, including people having a lot of kids they cannot afford or educate, and issues like run away AIDS in heavily catholic countries like Uganda (the biggest irony, of course, if that this supposedly moral law can lead to something they claim is a bigger evil, abortion)......Women as priests? Last I checked, churches have women priests and bishops and the world hasn't come to an end. Same sex marriage? Some churches are perfectly fine with it, and as far as I can tell, in the 10 years Mass has had same sex marriage, God hasn't unleashed the end of days or created a giant plague of white castle hamburgers upon the land...


Whereas morality like helping your fellow man, whether privately or through government, has led to a world where most people are not starving to death (far too many are, I realize, but compared to what the good ole days were like, no) or where old people have some hope of dignified life; the morality of Charity has touched many people's lives and made it better, that is easy to see (tell that to a douchebag like Paul Ryan, I am still hearing crickets instead of the screams I should be hearing from the Catholic Bishops about him and his ideas). Morality that has measured effects to improve people's lives or help someone in trouble or prevent harm, like the morality of not stealing or killing, helps keep people going; morality based in silly syllogisms or simply saying "That is what God wants" are generally cultural and therefore are usually either never useful or represent something once useful but today historical baggage, like no sex before marriage or artificial birth control bans.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 8:05:43 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Regarding your first point; you are free to ignore anyone you wish.

As for your second point, I have to admit that is a concern, to a degree.

As far as you being a Pagan, I will take you at your word on that but, answer me this: I have seen you spew absolute hateful words at Christianity/Christians. Is that part of the Pagan dogma; to hate any religion that isn't Paganism or is that just you, hating any religion other than your own?









quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Surely I have as much right NOT to see and hear it as he has to spout it??
If I don't have the ability to permanently hide a person they should have enough respect of other people to not monopolise the facilities.
BM just rambles on and on and on, answering to himself.

Plus the fact that if a "normal"(!?) person should happen upon these boards, if the the main thing they see on the scroller is nothing but religious incoherent ramblings of someone who is obviously unhinged and talks to himself, what on earth are they going to think of the site??






Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 8:28:43 PM   
BenevolentM


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At least someone is willing to fill the vacuum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Not necessarily, the problem with church teachings is that they often lie on a foundation that basically boils down to 'this is the way it always has been, so it should be".


The reason for this assertion is as I explained the teachings of the Church are orthodox and so you are right when you say that it boils down to. You are, however, putting a slant or as Bill O'Reilly would say spin on it. As I pointed out when it boils down to it Christianity does not condone radical anti-discrimination and so it could be said to be in a sense a hypocrite. But as I pointed out in my post on the Wolf of Wall Street. It is good to be a hypocrite when you are in the service of that which is good. It is better to be a hypocrite in the service of that which is right and good than one who exhibits a total absence of hypocrisy in the service of evil.

For example, it is one thing to be unable to fathom the position of the Church and another to stand against the Church and to encourage others to stand against it. If you are unable to fathom the position of the Church have you spent much time studying the teachings of the Church or have you simply assumed that your righteousness was self-evident?

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

The problem is that church teachings at their root often are not based in scripture ...


This is an argument that was put forth by the Protestants which has weakened the moral authority of Christianity. The Protestants felt they did not need to prepare for the final battle. The Church is an intellectual due to the prophecy. Man is to bruise the head of Satan and establish His intellectual superority, a thing many Protestants have all but abandoned. They have made peace with Satan.

The Church is vulnerable to attacks that it finds things in its Holy scrolls that are not plain to see much like the U.S. Supreme Court finds things written in the U.S. Constitution, but it remains to be seen if the U.S. Supreme Court has been as diligent as the Church. The U.S. Supreme Court is a professional, but so is the Church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

yet in practical reality they know damn well few Catholics, at least in the industrial west, pay attention to it, yet they don't ask people if they use contraception, they don't shun a family that has no or 1 or 2 kids.


Like I said it is better to be a hypocrite in the service of God, than one who is not a hypocrite in the service of Satan. Your analysis, however, is worldly. It assumes there is no other reality. The Church draws a distinction as I've already pointed out between its teachings and the ability to uphold them. The Church is in the business of making Saints. It is not in the business of showing you how to be Sinful and how to lead a Sinful life. Christianity as a whole nor the Church in particular is a hypocrite in that we fully acknowledge that man is a Sinner. What the Church is interested in is your desire not to be a Sinner. Goodness is priceless. Sinners on the other hand argue, what does a little more Sin matter?

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

making annulments almost trivial


The Church is doing the best it can under the circumstances. What do you do when society has made divorce trivial? You did use the word almost. The asymmetry as I pointed out is significant.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 8:35:29 PM   
BenevolentM


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Man was not a dumb cherub that pranced about in the Garden of Eden.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 8:56:09 PM   
BenevolentM


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Padre Pio, Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, I do ask for a sign as who am I next to you? Help me pierce the many falsehoods. Help me humble the Protestants.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 4/13/2014 9:11:09 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Help me humble the Protestants.


Look at the moral decay that you have brought to society.

(in reply to BenevolentM)
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