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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 1:46:29 PM

bounty44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Really, is this the answer, and Americans are OK with it - armed security guards surrounding gigs, schools, kindergartens ... anywhere where people gather?

urban schools all around America already have an armed presence in them and some have metal detectors for the students.

Israel and Australia do also, and I presume so does the UK and parts of Europe.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 1:51:16 PM

bounty44

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tear gas wise I was referring to the drones.

counter sniper wise, I know ideally its best for a shooter to have a higher position than his target, but that's not always possible and that doesn't necessarily mean that a counter sniper cannot be effective.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 1:55:44 PM

JVoV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Really, is this the answer, and Americans are OK with it - armed security guards surrounding gigs, schools, kindergartens ... anywhere where people gather?

No it is not an answer, and I am not ok with it.

I'm OK with an increased police presence at our schools, to protect the children from the multitude of extreme situations possible, as long as school officials handle the situations the children create themselves (outside of extreme situations, where police would already get involved). I don't want to see more 7yo felons.

I'm also OK with cops getting off-duty shifts working security at movie theaters, shopping malls at peak season, sports events, concerts, etc.

At what point do we start blaming the venues themselves for a lack of security?

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 1:59:16 PM

JVoV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

there might be movement towards having counter snipers present at large open air events.

Now that's a brilliant idea, let's turn every gathering into a fire fight!

smh

um, over-watch snipers are already parts of organized athletics, civic events (like concerts) and governmental activities.

sooooooo...

Really? Where?

If you coud see then they wouldn't be effective.

So you're saying that there's absolutely no actual facts to back the statement up, we're just supposed to take people's word on that? Sorry, that's not how it's done.
The claim was made there should be some citation for it. I doubt that your average event requires Special Operations Security or anything else that might need to remain classified. I would like to have the information.

I've never seen anything like that at a concert or any other venue that wasn't political, and in terms of it being more effective I would think that it would be a deterrent having people know.

https://deadspin.com/5883203/this-looks-like-a-fortified-snipers-nest-at-the-super-bowl

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:01:19 PM

JVoV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tear gas wise I was referring to the drones.

counter sniper wise, I know ideally its best for a shooter to have a higher position than his target, but that's not always possible and that doesn't necessarily mean that a counter sniper cannot be effective.

I just don't see any angle that a sniper could have used to hit Paddock. Sure, snipers are already in use for security at major events, but Vegas was totally open air, which proved to be a security nightmare.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:23:16 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

tear gas wise I was referring to the drones.

counter sniper wise, I know ideally its best for a shooter to have a higher position than his target, but that's not always possible and that doesn't necessarily mean that a counter sniper cannot be effective.

I just don't see any angle that a sniper could have used to hit Paddock. Sure, snipers are already in use for security at major events, but Vegas was totally open air, which proved to be a security nightmare.

Which would be part of the reason he chose this venue.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:24:31 PM

bounty44

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snipers have been used in recent super bowls, an international rugby competition, the macy's thanksgiving day parade and most recently at a playoff game in yankee stadium this past week.

they are regular measures employed by the secret service when the president is at certain venues.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:27:08 PM

bounty44

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that could be, but I think its difficult to speak definitively from just a photograph.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:35:30 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

that could be, but I think its difficult to speak definitively from just a photograph.

That is why I called it a possibility not proclaiming it a fact.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:40:58 PM

JVoV

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No it's not. Paddock was shooting from 400 yards away, and 32 stories up. There is absolutely no placement or angle available for a counter sniper to have been able to have taken him out. You can see in the pic, that the only other hotels around don't provide the right angle to hit his room.

The only viable possibility would have been to have police snipers positioned at the Mandalay Bay, in the far end of each wing (or whatever you call it), on a high floor. That's certainly a possibility for future event security, I suppose.

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Post #: 830

RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 2:57:46 PM

bounty44

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I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional.

if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene.

as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away.

it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 10/9/2017 3:11:44 PM >

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:06:07 PM

Wayward5oul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Really, is this the answer, and Americans are OK with it - armed security guards surrounding gigs, schools, kindergartens ... anywhere where people gather?

No it is not an answer, and I am not ok with it.

I'm OK with an increased police presence at our schools, to protect the children from the multitude of extreme situations possible, as long as school officials handle the situations the children create themselves (outside of extreme situations, where police would already get involved). I don't want to see more 7yo felons.

I'm also OK with cops getting off-duty shifts working security at movie theaters, shopping malls at peak season, sports events, concerts, etc.

At what point do we start blaming the venues themselves for a lack of security?

I was reacting mostly to the idea of having snipers at every event.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:07:44 PM

Wayward5oul

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

there might be movement towards having counter snipers present at large open air events.

Now that's a brilliant idea, let's turn every gathering into a fire fight!

smh

um, over-watch snipers are already parts of organized athletics, civic events (like concerts) and governmental activities.

sooooooo...

Really? Where?

If you coud see then they wouldn't be effective.

So you're saying that there's absolutely no actual facts to back the statement up, we're just supposed to take people's word on that? Sorry, that's not how it's done.
The claim was made there should be some citation for it. I doubt that your average event requires Special Operations Security or anything else that might need to remain classified. I would like to have the information.

I've never seen anything like that at a concert or any other venue that wasn't political, and in terms of it being more effective I would think that it would be a deterrent having people know.

https://deadspin.com/5883203/this-looks-like-a-fortified-snipers-nest-at-the-super-bowl

The idea of something like that at a huge event like the Superbowl doesn't surprise me, but that is by no means the norm.

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Post #: 833

RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:33:33 PM

BamaD

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FR

You have a problem.
Some people think the problem is A.
Some people think the problem is B.

You divide into three areas.

Area one attacks both A and B problem goes way down.
Area two attacks A no improvement
Area three attacks B problem goes way down.

What was the problem?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Post #: 834

RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:39:59 PM

JVoV

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Joined: 3/9/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

there might be movement towards having counter snipers present at large open air events.

Now that's a brilliant idea, let's turn every gathering into a fire fight!

smh

um, over-watch snipers are already parts of organized athletics, civic events (like concerts) and governmental activities.

sooooooo...

Really? Where?

If you coud see then they wouldn't be effective.

So you're saying that there's absolutely no actual facts to back the statement up, we're just supposed to take people's word on that? Sorry, that's not how it's done.
The claim was made there should be some citation for it. I doubt that your average event requires Special Operations Security or anything else that might need to remain classified. I would like to have the information.

I've never seen anything like that at a concert or any other venue that wasn't political, and in terms of it being more effective I would think that it would be a deterrent having people know.

https://deadspin.com/5883203/this-looks-like-a-fortified-snipers-nest-at-the-super-bowl

The idea of something like that at a huge event like the Superbowl doesn't surprise me, but that is by no means the norm.

It's the norm for huge events anymore. Likely at marathons in major cities, major sports events (NBA finals, MLB World Series, major NASCAR events, etc).

Every event and venue should undergo a threat assessment beforehand, or daily/regularly in the case of theme parks, based on known variables, with unknown variables keeping the threat level a minimum of one notch higher.

When concert tickets can cost $75 to $250, and theme park tickets can cost $90 to $105, it is reasonable to expect additional security measures to be taken, for the safety of guests.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:40:58 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

seems like tear gas would have done the job in a situation like las vegas, and maybe blinding lights as well.

speaking of lights then---I wonder about lasers being able to be used to target the shooter's weapons.

thinking more---if something like las vegas happens again, there might be movement towards having counter snipers present at large open air events.

Instead of guns to protect against guns... why not just get ride of the guns that can do this type of mass killing. What are we coming to when people want lasers and counter snipers to protect us at recreational events.

Butch

Opioids are killing a lot more people then guns.

Oh that makes a lot of sense...so because drugs are killing people its ok to kill them with guns too... I mean does THIS make any difference to you?

Butch

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:43:27 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

seems like tear gas would have done the job in a situation like las vegas, and maybe blinding lights as well.

speaking of lights then---I wonder about lasers being able to be used to target the shooter's weapons.

thinking more---if something like las vegas happens again, there might be movement towards having counter snipers present at large open air events.

Instead of guns to protect against guns... why not just get ride of the guns that can do this type of mass killing. What are we coming to when people want lasers and counter snipers to protect us at recreational events.

Butch

Opioids are killing a lot more people then guns.

Oh that makes a lot of sense...so because drugs are killing people its ok to kill them with guns too... I mean does THIS make any difference to you?

Butch

Don't you thinkthe greatest threat deserves the most attention?

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:47:58 PM

kdsub

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Why not both?... did you check out the link... it is very enlightening.

ps... less attention is a lot different than no attention.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:48:26 PM

JVoV

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Well pharmaceutical lobbyists have politicians bought and paid for, on both sides of the aisle, and pretty much run the FDA. The NRA likely only financially supports twu believer politicians, that already agree with most of their ideals.

Either way, overturn Citizens United, and pass serious campaign finance reform, and a lot of problems will fix themselves.

But that doesn't change the Second Amendment.

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Post #: 839

RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now - 10/9/2017 3:49:31 PM

JVoV

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