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Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 1:56:51 PM

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Joined: 5/12/2005
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My novice sub is still trying to understand the idea of punishment, and so I thought perhaps some female subs/slaves here might be able to help her out by expressing it in ways she may understand better. Here is how she talks about it:

"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant. What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment? YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well. i agree with that, but don't understand where the punishment fits in and how the boundaries do not become blurred. In a normal relationship, YOU would not "punish" YOUR wife. i thought the whole point of D/s was that it was enjoyable. i know that the relationship is unequal, but that is where the fun lies - so why would the punishment be truly unpleasant when the rest of it is supposed to be fun? i really don't understand! : )"

Any thoughts to share?

Master Lark

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 2:17:22 PM

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People in regular relationships punish each other all the time. Part of that wonderful back and forth process called head games. Always wrangling for control. When you do something wrong as a submissive you usually know you're doing something wrong at the time, because usually things are laid out pretty clearly. And punishments aren't always sexual, so they're not always "fun". Not being allowed to do something you like, chores, or doing something you dislike, once I had someone make me listen to the entire CD of a band I DETESTED.

Even when you compartmentalize your relationship into vanilla and d/s there's always this respect there. you snap your gum, he hates it. he tells you, you do it again (for whatever reason, even force of habit) he's going to do something to make sure you learn not to snap your gum. I would hope (and have experienced) that these punishments (when non sexual) that are on the vanilla side of your relationship are done with good humour and without malice. creating some story to look back on and laugh about...but you learn, and that's the point.

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 2:17:31 PM

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quote:

"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant.

Life is usually inpleasant for almost everyone at some point. Ds doesn't change that.

quote:

What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment? YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well

Then you've got communication and understanding problems which need to be settled and agreed upon before you start any training regimen which would include rewards and punishment.

quote:

i thought the whole point of D/s was that it was enjoyable.

The point of Ds is to be who you are.

quote:

i know that the relationship is unequal, but that is where the fun lies - so why would the punishment be truly unpleasant when the rest of it is supposed to be fun? i really don't understand! : )"

Some people DON'T use punishments at all- for the reasons that we ARE adults and do not need to be punished in those terms to change our behavior.

So if it doesn't work for you, then don't use it. It's not necessary.

But for those who DO use it, it can be a valid and useful tool. Not everyone is in this just for the fun bits, for some it is an ongoing dynamic with harsh edges to it, and they want those harsh edges as much as they want the fun.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training? Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 2:38:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleMissSub

People in regular relationships punish each other all the time. Part of that wonderful back and forth process called head games. Always wrangling for control. When you do something wrong as a submissive you usually know you're doing something wrong at the time, because usually things are laid out pretty clearly. And punishments aren't always sexual, so they're not always "fun".

I am so glad you were able to crystalize this idea because I was not. I think I got so caught up in thinking about the submissive being quoted's orientation toward relationships and D/s, the idea that everything within the D/s relationship is for the sake of "fun" that I had a really hard time coming up with a concise way to express what you just did. So, thanks.

My dom and I have a lot of fun together. We sail. We make music. We cook together. We play games with the elfen creatures. We go for walks. We laugh. A lot. I would not describe what we do in terms of overt expression of our D/s dynamic as "fun", but I am not a person who believes that everything should be fun or that anything that is not fun should be avoided.

It does not sound as though the person being quoted in the OP has the same sort of orientation toward D/s as I do, and therefore I don't know how much value my insight on punishment would be. My particular relationship uses D/s as a means for intimacy and personal growth. We discussed very explicitly in the beginning that there would be an underlying D/s dynamic at all times and that it would be either turned up or down as the situation required. I don't have a sense of what place D/s has in the relationship referred to in the OP. I would advise that the OP discuss with his submissive her orientation toward their power exchange. If I am reading her correctly, given her references to "blurred boundaries", it could be very possible that she is not interested in a relationship with a D/s foundation, but rather a somewhat vanilla relationship with kink in the bedroom.

I find it quite comforting that Im in a relationship where any punishment inflcited is going to be overt, explicit and finite, as opposed to the ongoing passive-aggression often used when vanilla couples punish one another.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to LittleMissSub)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 3:40:05 PM

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From: Tampa, FL
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Since when is any relationship 'supposed' to be all pleasant and sweet? punishment is an opportunity for growth and intimacy that isn't provided in the dysfunctional relationships where couples "fight". IF she is submissive, then her job is to provide as much peace to His life as she can (in my way of thinking) and if she disturbs this peace, punishment allows the Master to release this negative energy while at the same time provide the sub/slave with an opportunity to improve herself. Punishment, in D/s in the way i've experienced it was never done without the Dom telling me in detail what had been done (or not done) which disturbed His peace. When couples "fight" that kind of progress is never accomplished.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to justheather)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 4:00:14 PM

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I don't like punishment and i don't look for it. Master uses displine more. Sometimes its needed in my relationship at least it is because sometimes i don't listen to Master ansd is know i should. So sometimes punishment and displine has its place.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 4:31:25 PM

kitty2MLoneWolf

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If your sub is always right, then why would you punish her?

Does she truly feel she never does anything wrong? Why was this dynamic not clearly consented to at the time you took her on a submissive? Are you changing the rules by expecting to punish her now? These are the questions that come to my mind...

If she is not ready or willing to accept the concept of punishment within a relationship, then I hardly expect that telling her my feelings as a slave are going to make any sense to her. This is something the two of you really need to figure out together.

_____________________________

used to be jessieme but I got a life <grin>

Dont worry about what other people think....they dont do it very often!

(in reply to littleone35)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 4:31:46 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I do not understand punishment either, and I do not really think of myself as a novice. My Daddy does not understand it either, and he has been doing this for several years himself. He will discipline me sometimes if he feels it is necessary for my learning, and to serve him better. It is a tool to help me be a better submissive, it has nothing to do with "wrong doing", it is not punishment to us because it is not punitive. So I have the same question as she does, why punish? When I was still looking the words "strict" and "punish" would usually cue me in on the fact these people would be inappropriate for me. If I were to meet someone in real life this would have also been something I asked of them, how into punishment they are.

Also, for some people D/s is primarily a bedroom thing that is all about pleasure, and then there are some people that take it a little further than that, and then there are some people like Daddy and I that feel if it isn't fun and pleasurable and natural.. well it isn't something we would want to engage in. It is about fulfilling ourselves and being who we really are. For some punishment is a way to keep balance in their relationship and is necessary. What one person needs another does not. What one person can tolerate another cannot. This is why it is crucial to know yourself and your boundaries and your needs before accepting a collar from someone (or long term commitment) because it is important to know whether someone who punishes you will be doing something damaging to you, or fulfilling your needs.. some submissives really need this, others like me do not.

It does not mean that you are not a submissives that the idea of punishment makes no sense to you, it just may not be your cup of tea. Others I am sure will give another view, or say if there is no punishment, there is no D/s... I do not believe that is true at all. I obey because I want to, and there are many like me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 5:09:19 PM

Casie

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For one if you are giving yourself to someone. It should be your pleasure to serve your top. And if you knowingly disobey than yes punishment is nessisary. It isn't ment to be pleasent it is ment to teach you. To show what happens when you disobey. It's cause and effect it happens in everyday life as well. You drive drunk and get caught you get fines or worse. I know as a Submissive when I disobey I feel a deep sence of guilt which isn't relieved until I'm punished in some way. Even if I do something that I'm not suppose to and he doesn't find out I feel so much guilt I tell him. D/s isn't suppose to be all fun and pleasent. It's suppose to be full filling.Mutual gradification. It is like any relationship as in it's not perfect and always fun. As for what d/s is about. D/s is about filling that desire deep inside of you that raw human desire. To give in to the nature that you were born to whether that is top or bottom. For a sub expessially it is about freeing yourself. And expessially for female sub/slaves to feel that deep womanhood I have felt in no other kind of relationship. Giving your life to someone is something very special perhaps the deepest act of love. You find someone that your trust, love and honor enough to give your life to them and ask them to mold you and guide you to be a better person for yourself and for them. And nothing makes you happier than pleasing that other person. Good luck!!! I hope she is more able to understand. And that you guys build a beautiful gradifing relationship full of all the things you wish.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 6:03:03 PM

rien

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First of all, D/s isn't intended to be fun or pleasant. It's a way of life that both the dominant and submissive parties need. They yearn for it, and without acting out on those needs, they'll feel incomplete.

Besides that, no-one is right all of the time. When you're wrong and you fail your master, then you need to be punished. For me, I feel that I get punished for my actions when I fail Master for a number of reasons. One way of explaining it that I have for one of my vanilla friends is that I have a very hard time in letting go of the guilt that comes with failing him. Punishment helps restore things, helps me move on.

It's a whole lot better than screaming at one another all the time, or those "discussions" in a car while the kids stare through the blinds. My parents used to do that sort of thing. This way, it's all done in private, pretty simply. I can discuss things with Master to a point, and beyond that point, it's his decision.

_____________________________

“Sometimes you have to do what you don't like to get to where you want to be”

(in reply to Casie)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 6:21:04 PM

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Do you always live D/s, or are there times that your lives are vanilla? one thinks that it would be very difficult to not have it one way or the other.

Discipline is milder, it is used to teach the submissive. Punishment is not for teaching, it is to correct an action that the submissive did knowing full well that she should not do it. No, it isn't pleasant - it can be anything from removing a privilege to ignoring to a beating. Regardless of what method is used it is not done when the Dominant is angry, but when He has cooled down and has thought out a punishment that fits the infraction.

Punishment in a D/s relationship is actually much better than what happens in a vanilla relationship. There is better communication, the punishment is given and then it is over and done with, the slate is clean. In a vanilla relationship there is fighting over control of the situation, there are passive/aggressive acts done very frequently, it is one person wearing down the other. In D/s there is none of this - it is very clear the Dominant is in charge and control of the relationship, it is very clear the submissive is to serve and obey her Dominant - and if she doesn't there will be negative consequences. If the submissive wants positive attention? Then she will be respectful and obedient - and no, this does not mean being a doormat. Opinions can be voiced, discussions can be had, but the final decision lays with the Dominant, as it should be.

one hopes this helps !!!!!

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 6:57:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

My novice sub is still trying to understand the idea of punishment, and so I thought perhaps some female subs/slaves here might be able to help her out by expressing it in ways she may understand better. Here is how she talks about it:

"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant. What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment? YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well. i agree with that, but don't understand where the punishment fits in and how the boundaries do not become blurred. In a normal relationship, YOU would not "punish" YOUR wife. i thought the whole point of D/s was that it was enjoyable. i know that the relationship is unequal, but that is where the fun lies - so why would the punishment be truly unpleasant when the rest of it is supposed to be fun? i really don't understand! : )"

Any thoughts to share?

Our comments won't change the application or reality of what this means to you. It isn't the concept of punishment that she needs to comprehend, but your reasoning and application behind it. If you take the D/s element out of the conversation and present scenarios in a case study fashion. You may find your opportunity to foster greater discussion and understanding of the merits and detriments of corrective behavior that would be of tremendous benefit to you both. By engaging in this manner you remove the emotional aspects from the act and take the focus from her and apply it to another person. In this way you both can approach the situation from a logical unattached mindset. In essence she will come to realize how the dominant handles these things.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 8:35:41 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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fast reply,

I see a lot of judgment against vanilla ways of handling conflict within a relationship. I saw my parents have a happy vanilla marriage of over 20 years before he passed away. My mother then had another over 20 year relationship. My sister has a successful vanilla marriage. Many other people I know have successful vanilla relationships where no one gets "punished" for disobeying. Handling conflict like an adult and with respect is the only way to have a successful relationship between adults in my mind. Some vanillas have it right., and the respect their show in their communication defines the success of their relationships.

Not all dominants think that punishment is the only way to establish equilibrium when things are wrong. And to the person that posted a dominant "should" punish, and a submissive "should pay" if she "disobeys" her dominant. Well that for the dominant to decide what "should" happen. Some of us feel we should obey because we want to, and no amount of punishing is going to make me want to obey, it may make me want to leave, but not want to obey. I am inspired to obey, and I realize if I disobey I am negating his dominance... this is not something I want to do, and if I did it often or seriously he would dump me. That is far worse than any "punishment" he could think up.. and he also knows just the thought of disappointing him gets me to do just about anything he wants within my limits.

No one should think that a relationship is all happiness and sunshine or not work... and D/s is work, as much as any other sort of relationship dynamic. It should also be fun and rewarding and fullfilling, or why do it? At least this is how I see it, if having kids was nothing but total drudgery, and hard work, I would have not wanted to do that either.. parenting is fun, rewarding and natural to me... why would I pick relationships where there was no joy there? Where one derives their joy, if that be through service or kink or having someone directing their life... that is where their joy is derived from.

I think that there is an appropriate dominant for every submissive, the yin to the yang, and a submissive that needs strict structure with firm boundaries with some micromanagement thrown in would not be happy with my Daddy for example. At the same time a submissive like me would not feel comfortable with punishments, strictness or micromanagement... it does not mean there is no power exchange because punishments are not necessary, it just means that dynamic functions in a different way and the dominant has found ways to discipline and train a submissive without this tool.... punishment is only a tool after all, it is not the only one a dominant possesses to get a submissive to be obedient... there are others

Just an opinion and a different perspective.

For some people punishment within their relationship makes sense and restores balance, and that is wonderful because it works for them, but it is not absolutely necessary in a relationship. In all relationships if they do not feel comfortable for both people involved they are probably not going to work. It is not unusual to have different relationship styles.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/5/2006 10:00:35 PM

diamonddreamlove

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It sounds to me that it is not just punishment that Your submissive does not understand but the whole concept of D/s. It might be a good time for her to do some reading to increase her understanding. Also part of my own D/s is that my Dom makes the decisions and it does not matter if i agree that i have done something wrong or not nor does it matter if anything was done right or wrong, if He wishes to punish me it is His decision. Luckily i chose my Dom carefully and when He choses to punish it is with the intent to educate me and yep even to have fun since tickleing could be considered punishment. It is all in the understanding of the verbal or written contract. Again i suggest she read to help her understand more or atleast to be able to understand her needs more. As she understands those she should be able to handle the relationship much better.

_____________________________

"Many attempts to communicate are nullified by saying too much." Robert Greenleaf

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 1:59:46 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

My novice sub is still trying to understand the idea of punishment, and so I thought perhaps some female subs/slaves here might be able to help her out by expressing it in ways she may understand better. Here is how she talks about it:

"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant. What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment? YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well. i agree with that, but don't understand where the punishment fits in and how the boundaries do not become blurred. In a normal relationship, YOU would not "punish" YOUR wife. i thought the whole point of D/s was that it was enjoyable. i know that the relationship is unequal, but that is where the fun lies - so why would the punishment be truly unpleasant when the rest of it is supposed to be fun? i really don't understand! : )"

Any thoughts to share?

Master Lark

I think these things are often clearer in a practical sense.

Does she understand the idea of *someone else being in control* completely?

Maybe she doesn't understand the *idea* of punishment because it hasn't arisen, nor has she experienced a situation where it may be applicable.

It may never arise. She may never have to be punished.

Her *what-ifs* might be better addressed over time, especially if she is very new to the concept of D/s.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 5:05:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark
...Any thoughts to share?

generalizations about D/s relationships rarely help the discussion along, as each pairing is individualized...some use punishment as a tool to modify undesirable behavior, some only "play" punish - some don't punish at all. never assume ANY D/s relationship is a carbon copy of another--what works for some in their relationship would be the death knell of that relationship for others.

to some, a normal, enjoyable relationship for them IS a D/s pairing where punishment is but one tool used to create a desired outcome and for them, a vanilla relationship would be a "game", more "work" than pleasure and horridly unfulfilling.

adults punish adults all the time in their interpersonal relationships and in the society we live in...i.e. withholding sex from a partner who has upset them, filing a police report on an abusive partner so that society will punish them, etc... therefore this slave doesn't see the absence of punishment as the defining line between an "adult" relationship and one that isn't.

(in reply to MasterLark)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 6:51:05 AM

Mavis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
if I did it often or seriously he would dump me. That is far worse than any "punishment" he could think up..

i know we talk differently on this Julia, but i think we feel the same.. although i would consider "would dump me" as punishment. Not corrective, but punative. Which, as i recall, is the way you have defined punishment in prior discussions.

"Barmaid, can i get more semantics here?" <grins>

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 7:52:35 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark
...Any thoughts to share?

generalizations about D/s relationships rarely help the discussion along, as each pairing is individualized...some use punishment as a tool to modify undesirable behavior, some only "play" punish - some don't punish at all. never assume ANY D/s relationship is a carbon copy of another--what works for some in their relationship would be the death knell of that relationship for others.

to some, a normal, enjoyable relationship for them IS a D/s pairing where punishment is but one tool used to create a desired outcome and for them, a vanilla relationship would be a "game", more "work" than pleasure and horridly unfulfilling.

adults punish adults all the time in their interpersonal relationships and in the society we live in...i.e. withholding sex from a partner who has upset them, filing a police report on an abusive partner so that society will punish them, etc... therefore this slave doesn't see the absence of punishment as the defining line between an "adult" relationship and one that isn't.

Gosh, why couldn't I have said it as succinctly as this, thanks beth...

The only place I would differ is that when adults are being their mature best punishment is unnecessary and not all adults need to be punishing toward each other. The examples of punishment you described are of dysfunctional people in vanilla relationships... not all vanilla relationships use punishment as a tool for control, many are mature and functional. (probably took a lot of work and communication to get there though). I am NOT saying punishment makes a couple immature, do not misunderstand, I think that it works for some and is more honest in D/s than in snarky vanilla relationships.. and is a basically more honest upright tool for those it works for.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/6/2006 8:06:59 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 8:00:47 AM

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
if I did it often or seriously he would dump me. That is far worse than any "punishment" he could think up..

i know we talk differently on this Julia, but i think we feel the same.. although i would consider "would dump me" as punishment. Not corrective, but punative. Which, as i recall, is the way you have defined punishment in prior discussions.

"Barmaid, can i get more semantics here?" <grins>

Okay, I will bite, smiles...I have been punished in a few vanilla relationships..Ha Ha. If I dumped a dominant I would hardly be punishing him. That would not be my intention. It just means it is over, nothing more. My point above is that knowing that I am displeasing is enough to keep me in line, and no punishment could equal being dumped. You can consider it the ultimate punishment, but for it to be that then when the submissive leaves is she punishing the dominant? hmmm... these sorts of semantic discussions should only be taken with asprin... thanks for making me think Mavis!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mavis)

RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 10:40:21 AM

Mavis

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Joined: 2/8/2004
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it really is semantics in a lot of it, but like you say, it's a snarky behavior in nilla at best! Hubby is just getting to a handle on His dominant side, and for years he would "punish" me in snarky ways without telling me what the infraction was.. offering me a tip to correct anything, or even known why he expected things i couldn't mind-read about.

He couldn't even articulate that He had certain expectations for me, because it felt socially wrong to have parameters for women. "I'm withholding sex because the house is messy, and I feel like you're not keeping up with your end of the unspoken deal here, my needs are not being met." Was what He meant, but all He could say was "I'm only horney when the house is perfect." Well then give up, house isn't going to be perfect. Once He got working with Master, and realised it wasn't socially unacceptable within D/s to have those expectations spoken, it's like He has permission to say all those things a Dominant thinks, but don't fly in nilla relationships. That has lead to a lot less "punishing behavior" for sure, so i would agree on maturity being a factor.

It still doesn't splain why i need punishment in a D/s relationship if there is a known infraction. i may outgrow that, but for now, i think it's because i need to see and experience controlled logical consequences that validate the relationship without being destructive to me as a person. i understand just being displeasing is enopugh for most, but in my history, i've done displeasing without knowing how or why, so now i need to see / experience atonement? <shrug> different life stage, i may have completely different answers.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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