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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/5/2006 1:12:00 PM   
agirl


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If you were ridiculed and criticised I'd have to say that it couldn't have been by *Christians*....I certainly am not sure what *God* has to say about bdsm but I'm at least FAIRLY certain that intolerance of that kind isn't *Christ-like*. ( I am not a christian, nor do I have any *faith*)

agirl



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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/5/2006 5:05:44 PM   
chrstnmalesub


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Someone wrote: "If you were ridiculed and criticised I'd have to say that it couldn't have been by *Christians*...."
 
Hmmm...  wondering if you're being sarcastic here- lol.

Seriously, i get ridiculed and criticised quite often by Christians for saying that i'm a male sub.  At least they say they're Christians or are widely believed to be Christians.  The overwhelming majority of Christians who accept BDSM reject femdom.  i've been in i don't know how many debates with these people.

One of the other big debates in Christian BDSM circles is whether or not it's ok to scene if you're single.  Many believe that it's only cool to play if you are married and then only with your spouse.

But i don't think Christians who actively participate in BDSM scenes are hypocrites because most Christians think it's wrong.  i think each person should be judged independently according to his or her own beliefs.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/6/2006 5:58:20 AM   
SirLordTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrstnmalesub

Sir,

It seems that you're lumping all those who call themselves Christians into one mold, one personality.  alan



If it seems that way its simply not, as that was/is not My intent. Ive gained much insight from the many views since starting this thread and I thank each person who posted, irregardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with their opinion.

What sticks out most in My mind, is the poster who stated along the lines of that the ones who point fingers, thump bibles and stand around at our events in protest are but a small number in comparison to the ones who do not, and/or are involved in our lifestyle.

What prompted Me to start this thread was I had seen a great many people on here using biblical quotes on their 'signatures'. So I thought what a perfect time to get various opinions as well add to My own. Thanks for your response.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 2:36:18 AM   
SirLordTrainer


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The bible does point to or make references to D/s structure of sorts. Honor, obey. Even self-flagellation to 'cleanse' oneself of sins. Although I find that one more conducive if Im doing the flogging on them. hah

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 3:44:34 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrstnmalesub

Someone wrote: "If you were ridiculed and criticised I'd have to say that it couldn't have been by *Christians*...."
 
Hmmm...  wondering if you're being sarcastic here- lol.

Seriously, i get ridiculed and criticised quite often by Christians for saying that i'm a male sub.  At least they say they're Christians or are widely believed to be Christians.  The overwhelming majority of Christians who accept BDSM reject femdom.  i've been in i don't know how many debates with these people.

One of the other big debates in Christian BDSM circles is whether or not it's ok to scene if you're single.  Many believe that it's only cool to play if you are married and then only with your spouse.

But i don't think Christians who actively participate in BDSM scenes are hypocrites because most Christians think it's wrong.  i think each person should be judged independently according to his or her own beliefs.



Not sarcastic, no. It's an observation. I'm saying that calling yourself a *christian* means very little....behaving like one does.

I don't think that ridiculing others is very *christ-like* behaviour, personally.

I don't believe in God or gods at all but if someone is calling themselves a *christian*, it's not too much to expect to see a smidgen of tolerance, kindness and love for their neighbour.........lol

agirl



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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 4:01:58 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

The bible does point to or make references to D/s structure of sorts. Honor, obey. Even self-flagellation to 'cleanse' oneself of sins. Although I find that one more conducive if Im doing the flogging on them. hah


Yes, I know that the bible makes reference to those things.  There's a lot in the bible that can be interpreted in many ways too and depends on who's doing the interpreting. I had a tract from the Jehovah's Witnesses through my door a few days ago........who's to say they aren't fully *right on* with their interpretation of gays and God's thinking concerning them? What if YOU think it's perfectly fine to be gay yet your *God* says it isn't?..........Who does your thinking for you if you're a *christian*?.........lol

agirl









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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 4:10:10 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrstnmalesub


One of the other big debates in Christian BDSM circles is whether or not it's ok to scene if you're single.  Many believe that it's only cool to play if you are married and then only with your spouse.

But i don't think Christians who actively participate in BDSM scenes are hypocrites because most Christians think it's wrong.  i think each person should be judged independently according to his or her own beliefs.



Well, I tend to think that it's best to judge someone by their behaviour, not their beliefs. I couldn't care less if someone believes in flying unicorns if they are a decent kind of chap, kind to children and animals etc, 'tis all fine by me.

The problem with a religion that's based not only on a book, but on each individuals *personal relationship* with a God, means that it's open to almost anything.

agirl

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 4:33:09 AM   
SirLordTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
 I had a tract from the Jehovah's Witnesses through my door a few days ago........who's to say they aren't fully *right on* with their interpretation of gays and God's thinking concerning them? What if YOU think it's perfectly fine to be gay yet your *God* says it isn't?..........Who does your thinking for you if you're a *christian*?.........lol

agirl



What I think is Im uncertain which is one reason I started this thread, to get other perspectives. I think for Myself girl. What spiritual higher power, if any, does your thinking for you. Or do you believe that when you die, your just gone.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 5:57:56 AM   
agirl


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Yes, I think that when I'm dead, I'm dead.  I think for myself and am not *guided* by a *higher power*, no.

agirl

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 6:26:29 AM   
zumala


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Personally, I'm thinking of trying to do a little more research. I am going to examine the Bible thoroughly, both Old and New Testament, as well as see if I can't find literary works contemporary to the Bible.  Since it was written over a long span of years, I imagine I should be able to find a few things.
 
Here's what I find a little difficult.  I was raised by Christian parents (and I know no one is perfect) who had some flaws that were glaring to me. So when I grew up and left home, I started thinking hard about myself and my beliefs. I do believe in the Word of God, but I also noticed something... the MAJOR theme is a relationship with God. The New Testament is all about Christ, His sacrifice and His lessons.  So, it seems to me that this is the main sticking point.  Beyond that, some things are uncertain.  Back in the Dark Ages, the Catholic priests were the only ones who had Bibles (in Latin) and could read.  In my opinion (and I don't mean to flame Catholics, honestly) there are some things that they believe now that I think is incongruant with what the Bible says. I have heard some people state that they think the Catholic priests may have re-written some of it to suit themselves.   Now... whether or not that is true, I don't know.  But here's a thought I've been chewing on lately.
 
The New Testament talks about a man being the husband of but one wife. Monogamy seems to be a major thing. Now... why is that so in the NT when it wasn't true in the OT? David didn't get in trouble because of his many wives. He got busted because he coveted someone else's wife, commited adultery with her, and then murdered her husband. Solomon didn't get in trouble because of his plethora of wives, either.  He went afoul by taking up with non-Jewish girls who talked him into following their gods instead of God. So while I personally am not poly, I am not entirely certain that it is wrong if done honestly, openly, and with the consent of all involved.  I just don't know.  As for homosexuality... I haven't a clue. I remain silent on that issue and neither endorse it nor condemn for it.
 
The bottom line is that it isn't my place to judge other people.  I can and should judge actual sin, but not people.  And if I'm not sure something is a sin, who am I to say a word against it?  The issue is living like Christ and striving to please God because you love Him and He is your Master.  Christianity was never meant to be about pointing fingers or being "holier than thou".  It breaks my heart to see that sort of behavior so prevalent.
 
Sorry... I know that was long-winded.
 
zuma

< Message edited by zumala -- 11/7/2006 6:28:38 AM >

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 7:00:23 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zumala


The New Testament talks about a man being the husband of but one wife. Monogamy seems to be a major thing. Now... why is that so in the NT when it wasn't true in the OT? David didn't get in trouble because of his many wives. He got busted because he coveted someone else's wife, commited adultery with her, and then murdered her husband. Solomon didn't get in trouble because of his plethora of wives, either. He went afoul by taking up with non-Jewish girls who talked him into following their gods instead of God. So while I personally am not poly, I am not entirely certain that it is wrong if done honestly, openly, and with the consent of all involved. I just don't know. As for homosexuality... I haven't a clue. I remain silent on that issue and neither endorse it nor condemn for it.



Well I think that quote is about men holding a particular religious office, not all men.

Where does that leave women? Does it mean that women can't hold offices or that the marriage limitations don't apply to them? Or does it mean that the disciple who wrote those letters (it wasn't Jesus folks) was responding to a particular church with particular issues?

For me, Christianity is about Jesus and if Jesus didn't say it and didn't do it, then it is nothing but interpretation and each person who has a relationship with Jesus will have their own interpretation.

That said, first, why am I writing in blue?

And second, while I don't follow the other parts of the bible and I can still be inspired by them. Thus Fox's ear piercings to mark our 7th anniversary and his stated committment to be my slave for the rest of his life (that's an old testament, jewish tradition we were inspired by).

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 11/7/2006 7:01:50 AM >


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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 7:17:26 AM   
zumala


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Well I think that quote is about men holding a particular religious office, not all men.

Where does that leave women? Does it mean that women can't hold offices or that the marriage limitations don't apply to them? Or does it mean that the disciple who wrote those letters (it wasn't Jesus folks) was responding to a particular church with particular issues?

For me, Christianity is about Jesus and if Jesus didn't say it and didn't do it, then it is nothing but interpretation and each person who has a relationship with Jesus will have their own interpretation.

That said, first, why am I writing in blue?

And second, while I don't follow the other parts of the bible and I can still be inspired by them. Thus Fox's ear piercings to mark our 7th anniversary and his stated committment to be my slave for the rest of his life (that's an old testament, jewish tradition we were inspired by).

 
It could have been a response to a particular church.  There's a lot that isn't discussed in the Bible that can leave you wondering.  I wouldn't say that women can't have positions of authority, though.  Look at Deborah.  She was a great judge and responsible for leading the jewish people.
 
Jesus did tell the lady who was with a man who wasn't her husband to 'go and sin no more'.  But that was clearly a case of adultry.
 
Ear piercing.  That would be when a slave had his ear nailed to the doorpost to signify that he would be a slave for life? I didn't go and look it up, so I may have that one wrong.
 
zuma

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 7:44:08 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrstnmalesub

Someone wrote: "I tend to think that the Christian opposition to sex..."

i think this is a misconception.  Very few Christians opposes sex in and of itself.  Many believe it should be reserved for within the context of marriage, but very few "oppose" sex altogether.


Hello chrstnmalesub,

I was the one who wrote that.  I thought I also included a caveat that I meant it more as a comment on organized religion, rather than a comment on individual followers of any particular religion.  If that was not clear from my post, I apologize.

I personally think there are people of all religions who take what is useful for them from their belief system, and listen to, learn from, but ignore the rest.

I still consider that a correct statement, although I would point out that it seems to be something common to most / all organized heirarchical religions.  This would include Buddhism, Mormonism, Christianity, Scientology, Islam, etc.  In most of these we see taught precepts or the followers are given strict guidelines about how to actualize the biological imperative that is sex.

What I attempted to point out was that organized religions tend to have control issues with people acting out their biological urges, such as sex, bdsm, etc., and attempt to denigrate and/or control them through their spiritual precepts.

The guidelines tend to be weighted in favor of the male being the Dominant member of the relationship, which is why so much was written about it during the Second Wave of Feminism, but I imagine that is a topic for another thread.

Just me, yadda yadda yadda,

Sinergy

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 2:42:43 PM   
SirLordTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Yes, I think that when I'm dead, I'm dead.  I think for myself and am not *guided* by a *higher power*, no.

agirl



Then Im surprised you even bother with this thread at all, quite honestly. I find it sad you feel that way. I wouldve thought you believed in something if not christianity.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 3:59:41 PM   
sublizzie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zumala

Jesus did tell the lady who was with a man who wasn't her husband to 'go and sin no more'.  But that was clearly a case of adultry.

zuma


What I find the most interesting in that particular story is that only the woman was brought to Jesus for judgement. According to the Law, both people were to be condemned and stoned since Jesus was told they were "caught in the very act". Makes me wonder what Jesus wrote in the dust. Maybe the Law that pertained to the situation?

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 4:05:55 PM   
heartfeltsub


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Some people think that He was writing down the sins of the people who wanted to stone her, and that each one saw the things that he was guilty of, they dropped the rock they were holding and walked away in shame. The point He was making is that no one is righteous enough to condemn someone else.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 10:24:58 PM   
XianDominSJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie
What I find the most interesting in that particular story is that only the woman was brought to Jesus for judgement. According to the Law, both people were to be condemned and stoned since Jesus was told they were "caught in the very act". Makes me wonder what Jesus wrote in the dust. Maybe the Law that pertained to the situation?


Sublizzie,
First, a couple of things about this story (John 7:53-8:11).  The most notable is the fact that it does not occur in many early manuscripts prior to several hundred years A.D., and where it does appear usually occurs either after the 21st chapter of Luke or in its current place at the end of John 7.  Nor did the early Christian writers (e.g., Tertullian, Origen) cite it in even when discussing cases or matters in which it made perfect sense to do so, although that in itself is not proof of anything.  There are many reasons why a Christian writer may wish to avoid citing certain Scriptures which may not do well in the case are trying to present. This just simply means we must know our Bibles so as not to be led astray by those who may not tell us the full story.

But let's assume the story is accurate. You are correct that under Old Testament law both parties were to have been stoned, upon proper conviction of course.  That leads to the first problem with this story: this was a trial wherein only one adulterous party stood charges.  Also, under the law, two witnesses had to be presented and they could not contradict one another (contradictory witness statements were grounds for automatic acquittal; a major reason why the Jewish leaders could not convict Jesus in their own court).  Further, the Jewish leaders were trying to get Jesus to condemn this woman to be stoned to death.  While this may have been permissible under Jewish law, it was not allowed under Roman law.  Roman rule had stripped the Jews of the ability to execute citizens.  Thus, the Jewish leaders were setting up Jesus to try and get him to sentence a woman to death when in fact such a pronouncement was illegal under Roman law.  They were trying to get Jesus to simultaneously violate Old Testament law and Roman law in hopes that if he didn't he would appear lax on the issue of adultery.  Bottom line: no two guilty parties at trial, no two substantiating witnesses, and no legal means by which to enforce the sentence.  The whole thing was a sham, just like the trial He would later phase.  Of course, 2000 years later the dynamics of ancient Roman and Jewish legal procedures are sometimes lost on the modern reader.

As for what He was writing in the sand, we have absolutely no idea. As heartfeltsub mentioned, he could've been writing about the sins which they had committed themselves.  Or, he could have been recounting for them the provisions of their own Law which they were violating. When He said, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her," Jesus was not necessarily making a statement against the death penalty or trying to say that none of us can hold an opinion on the behavior of another.  Rather, each one of them was seeking to judge, condemn, and execute this woman apart from the authority of Law and thus do so on their own authority -- only God, who alone is without sin, has that power.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 10:30:50 PM   
XianDominSJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

The bible does point to or make references to D/s structure of sorts. Honor, obey. Even self-flagellation to 'cleanse' oneself of sins. Although I find that one more conducive if Im doing the flogging on them. hah


Actually, the Bible makes absolutely no mention of self-flagellation to cleanse oneself of anything.  In fact, such a concept violates the entire basis of Gospel that Christ died once and for all for all sins. We can do nothing to add to it and to do so is an insult to the sufficiency of all that He is done. The misunderstanding or outright denial of that basic tenet of Christian faith is what led one segment of the "Christian" church to engage in that practice for a period of time.  Indeed there is a lot of flogging in the New Testament, but it's Christians (or Christ himself) on the receiving end.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/7/2006 10:45:10 PM   
MistressGayle


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to "agirl"... regarding the tract you received from the JWs....

Not one single prophecy they've spouted has come to pass EVER; as a matter of fact, they change their tenets quite frequently. They used to say that a blood transfusion was against the laws of God, so many died due to this useless act of control. Scriptures say that "eating" blood was not allowed -- goes through the digestive tract, not the "circulatory tract" as in a transfusion.  These people's own version of the Bible is polytheistic, yet many of them have no clue.... they are truly lost and don't come close to comparing with Jesus or Christianity. Jehovah's Witlesses are a horrible, abusive, guilt-ridden cult. I have helped many to escape it's clutches and they are scarred for life, mentally, and more often than not, physically...

However, the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible have been, and are rapidly coming to pass...

Do some research and you will find that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life....

Be well.

Mistress

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 11/8/2006 12:33:39 AM   
XianDominSJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zumala
Ear piercing.  That would be when a slave had his ear nailed to the doorpost to signify that he would be a slave for life? I didn't go and look it up, so I may have that one wrong.

You're correct, and it's from Deuteronomy 15 and also a nearly identical provision in Exodus 12... regarding a slave who has served his 6 years of service and is now, having fulfilled his obligations, due to be released from service: "But if he [the Hebrew slave] says to you, 'I will not go out from you,' because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. And to your female slave you shall do the same." [Deut 15:16-18] or more fully: "If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever." [Exodus 21:4-6]

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