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"Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 1:21:44 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I had originally written this post in a response to another thread, but I'm cutting and pasting two posts from the nonconsentual-consent thread as this is an entirely different topic in my opinion. So, for what it's worth, this is why I say I have 'no limits' and **warning** it's long, so one of those 'skipable' posts for people who hate to read.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl I believe that people who call themselves "no limits" really mean that they impose no limits on their owners that their owners do not hold for themselves. I think it's a disingenuous way to say it, but it's as close as people can come.
 I'm going to answer the gist of this in my response to adaddysgirl and her response to daddysprop. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl But i don't hear anyone here saying that they would allow their kids to be taken away or allow their Master to set them on fire just because that is his will...period.

It's funny that you should happen to pick these two extremes as examples as I both gave up my children (for a time) and my first Master set me on fire. (Himself has also set me on fire, but he did so by accident. ::laughs::) I also slit my wrist on his order because he wanted to watch me bleed, submitted to water torture via a garden hose, starved (which worked really well with the coke addiction actually), was forced to drink too much tequilla which resulted in alcohol poisoning, overdosed on prescription pain meds (his meds, not mine) because he thought it was funny when I was high and a whole lot of other shit that I don't need to go in to on a message board. The behavior eventually landed me in a loony bin for for almost a month.  
I don't know how far he would have gone or how far I would have gone. I was 25 years old and there was simply nothing that I would not do if Master told me to do it and over the course of our three year relationship, things got progressively more intense and dangerous. It seemed to be that one or the other of us was going to die. He happened to be the one who died first.
Being really dumb and naive but academically gifted, having zero in the way of self-esteem and coming out of a home where what Master did to me seemed like child's play, well it can do things to your head. It fucks with you, ya know? I don't think it's possible to completely get over some shit that can happen to you, but you can get close enough for it not to matter anymore.
When I say I have no limits, it's because "I" don't. It has nothing to do with Himself (and it has nothing to do with liking the way it rolls off my tongue although I do like that line ::chuckles::). He's a good man, a caring man, an honorable man and I am extrodinarily fortunate to be allowed to call him Master. He protects me from myself and he loves me. He knows I have no limits and it's one of the reasons that he's pretty careful with how he speaks to me because I do take him literally and he knows if he gives me a command, I'm going to do exactly what he says. I was trained that way a long time ago and the training took. It was beaten into me on a daily basis - first by someone who was supposed to love me .. then by someone who didn't give a shit about me. They seemed pretty much the same to me. To this day I flinch. 46 fucking years old and I still flinch. And sometimes I cry. Not always, not even often, but sometimes I think about it and I cry. 
For people who want to believe that 'everyone' has limits .. keep believing it. You don't have to think about how harsh life can be and the blinders can keep you pure. I'd trade what I know for your blinders in a heart beat to have some limits myself. I just don't know how. I just don't fucking know how, ok? You know, Moms really do beat their kids with wire hangers. That's not just something from a movie. Moms use metal rods and bats and belts and their fists and sometimes they really do cut all your hair off ..  and they scream at you over and over.. "Don't you dare say no to me. Don't you dare say no." You get to a point where you actually can't say no anymore. Not won't, not don't.. can't. Get it? Not everyone who jumps into the leather vats does so from a healthy place. If we're lucky, we can get fairly healthy again, but sometimes there are things you can't ever get back .. like the word no or having someone move their arm suddenly and you not flinch or having a panic attack over a hairbrush or a pair of scissors. (Ever go ape shit in a hair saloon? ::laughs::) Just casualities of war though, you know? I got into BDSM because lust, thrill and risk were easier than facing demons. I didn't know that BDSM was going to force me to face those demons anyway but it worked out and considering some of the other consequences which could have surfaced, what I've lost doesn't seem all that bad. So I flinch once in a while, I cry on rare occasions (like now, but I'm two days away from my period and menopausal) ... and I don't have any limits. Big deal. Himself doesn't flinch, I've never seen him cry, he has plenty of limits and as far as I know, he's never, once, gone ape shit in a hair saloon..  so it's all good. Celeste http://www.collarchat.com/m_470070/mpage_2/key_outside%252Cpain/tm.htm#471796

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:07:38 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		People can mostly only see through their own experience and perspective. I think its basically foolish to make statements that *must* apply to everyone. There is always that wild card where nothing, "as people usually/generally experience something" applies.

The statement "everyone has has limits" may very well apply to most of the populous, I believe that to be true...but there are always a few here and there that live outside the box, however that has happened for them.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:08:10 AM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

That was pure stupidity.

I think that was a pure sadistic person who probabley knew he was dying and had no disregard for other people.


< Message edited by imtempting -- 11/5/2006 2:09:15 AM >

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:18:44 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		greetings
 
this mad me cry we had a small on no one saw so beaten no friend family father neighbors no one saw this you were so abuse and hurt no wonder you flinch at a loud voice or hurt yourself but letting someone hurt you yes it makes sense because the demon of you childhood come back to hurt you. when someone tells me they have not limits i stay away. i am so sorry you hurt so bdsm is not to be like this at all. i hope you doing wel now
 
mons take care

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:21:16 AM   
Fitznicely


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		My girl was treated badly by a parent. These dasy they'd call it "grooming". Back then, she just thought she was an early developer. There was physical non-sexual abuse, too, but that was nothing compared to the mental shackles she still wears to some extent.

I spent nine years working on those shackles, helping her to see herself as an innocent victim, that no six year old should understand what a blowjob is and more. Only under the whip have her final defences come down. Only under the cane has her healing truly begun.

In truth, my girl fears a lot of things, she fears opening up and allowing the "real" her to emerge, the emotional barriers placed in her by her father have been virtually impossible to pierce until I took her as slave. She has, perhaps, reacted to her abuse in the opposite way to you and shut herself inside. It's been my job to peel away those barriers and reveal the person she could be. sometimes it's traumatic, sometimes there's anger and tribulation and harsh words and actions, but always at the end there's peace, understanding, gratitude. I feel like I'm living The Pygmalion sometimes...

Nothing I know could compare to what you've endured, Celeste. I know on an intellectual level that such things go on and as I do empathy well, I believe I have some understanding of how you came to be where you are now. I won't risk your scorn by offering pity. Instead, let me offer my gladness that you've found a place where you are at peace.

What my girl went through doesn't compare, and she is perhaps too ready to say "no" as a result of it, but the net result is the same. She has found peace in a lifestyle that most people would call barbaric.

We know better, and "beautiful" is a pisspoor way of describing it, but it's all I have.


_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:21:54 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting



That was pure stupidity.

I think that was a pure sadistic person who probabley knew he was dying and had no disregard for other people.



Yes, pure stupidity. Yes, absolutely a sadist (which was not a problem) .. I think you mean he had no 'regard' for people, and I do believe that is also true but no, he did not know he was going to die. He burst a blood vessel in his brain and it killed him. That said, he had high blood pressure and smoked three packs of cigs a day, so, perhaps he did know and just didn't care.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:24:42 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

People can mostly only see through their own experience and perspective. I think its basically foolish to make statements that *must* apply to everyone. There is always that wild card where nothing, "as people usually/generally experience something" applies.

The statement "everyone has has limits" may very well apply to most of the populous, I believe that to be true...but there are always a few here and there that live outside the box, however that has happened for them.


Exactly why I posted this.. thank you, Jali. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:26:22 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

greetings
 
this mad me cry we had a small on no one saw so beaten no friend family father neighbors no one saw this you were so abuse and hurt no wonder you flinch at a loud voice or hurt yourself but letting someone hurt you yes it makes sense because the demon of you childhood come back to hurt you. when someone tells me they have not limits i stay away. i am so sorry you hurt so bdsm is not to be like this at all. i hope you doing wel now
 
mons take care


I have no complaints, Mons. Truly. I am blessed, know I'm blessed and am very grateful. Thank you for the post, but there is no need to cry. It's all good now.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to mons)
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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:35:38 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

My girl was treated badly by a parent. These dasy they'd call it "grooming". Back then, she just thought she was an early developer. There was physical non-sexual abuse, too, but that was nothing compared to the mental shackles she still wears to some extent.

I spent nine years working on those shackles, helping her to see herself as an innocent victim, that no six year old should understand what a blowjob is and more. Only under the whip have her final defences come down. Only under the cane has her healing truly begun.


I understand this so well. It's why I posted the link to the note I had written about pain. I thought it would be understood with a bit of background. Pain, for me, was what helped me to, well, not get passed things so much.. but, not allow them to rule me anymore.

quote:

In truth, my girl fears a lot of things, she fears opening up and allowing the "real" her to emerge, the emotional barriers placed in her by her father have been virtually impossible to pierce until I took her as slave. She has, perhaps, reacted to her abuse in the opposite way to you and shut herself inside. It's been my job to peel away those barriers and reveal the person she could be. sometimes it's traumatic, sometimes there's anger and tribulation and harsh words and actions, but always at the end there's peace, understanding, gratitude. I feel like I'm living The Pygmalion sometimes...


Actually, in a lot of ways, I did the same thing. I shut everyone and everything out and just presented this .. mask.. to everyone. It was easier. ::shrugs::

quote:

Nothing I know could compare to what you've endured, Celeste. I know on an intellectual level that such things go on and as I do empathy well, I believe I have some understanding of how you came to be where you are now. I won't risk your scorn by offering pity. Instead, let me offer my gladness that you've found a place where you are at peace.


Thank you, Fitznicely. I appreciate your words very much. I am, indeed, at peace, but, you know, there are still some residual odd things that float around and I can't help but notice them and know I still have more growing to do because of them.

quote:

What my girl went through doesn't compare, and she is perhaps too ready to say "no" as a result of it, but the net result is the same. She has found peace in a lifestyle that most people would call barbaric.


Yeah.. it's sad, because I do believe that ultimately, it actually saved my life and I doubt that would ever be seen by someone who wasn't part of M/s or BDSM and perhaps not by everyone who is a part of it.

quote:

We know better, and "beautiful" is a pisspoor way of describing it, but it's all I have.



I think it describes things perfectly. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Fitznicely)
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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 2:50:30 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
You know, Moms really do beat their kids with wire hangers. That's not just something from a movie. Moms use metal rods and bats and belts and their fists and sometimes they really do cut all your hair off ..  and they scream at you over and over.. "Don't you dare say no to me. Don't you dare say no." You get to a point where you actually can't say no anymore. Not won't, not don't.. can't. Get it?


This made me cry.  They burn their children too, and lock them in closets, and tie them up, and tell them they're stupid, and ridicule them in public.

I hear ya, Celeste, I really hear ya.

You flinch in hair salons.  I jump when someone comes home and I happen to be sitting.

This was a great post, and certainly made sense to me.  But I agree with Jali - people can only relate to what they know.  Most can not expand their minds enough to understand there is more in life outside their comfortable walls of thought.  Some of it is too unpleasant for them to think of.  And so they close it off - therefore it doesn't exist. That doesn't just occur with comments about limits, but in opinions on how others ought to be, etc.

In my case, Master set limits for me because I was out of control and about to go down a path which you described.  You cry on occasion.  And I go through phases where I am convinced that anyone who claims they love me is really telling a huge lie to manipulate getting what they want from me.  Makes for some interesting exchanges...heh.  Fortunately those are fewer and farther between.

Thank you for posting this. For what it's worth, I believe some people really do have no limits.

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:22:18 AM   
Gem


Posts: 100
Joined: 2/11/2004
Status: offline 		Brightest Blessings Celeste
 
I am not sure I am going to answer this as elegantly as you but here goes.
 
I hear you and I understand and have been there, I also do not have limits because of the world I grew up in. Where fathers visit their girls in the middle of the night, and where they think it is fun to put their heads thru concrete walls or try to and everything inbetween.
 
I finally learned to cry 6 years ago the word No still is a tricky one for me. I have Man's limits for a reason because I have none of my own. I am not a masochist, however I need pain, sometimes it is the only was I know I am alive, sometimes it allows me to dance with the demons who roam free in my mind, but most importantly it allows me to heal, to fight and to understand.
 
Same as age play, Man is my Daddy, I am his little girl, because I had to understand I had to heal that child who lived in me.
 
Some days and some months I am healed, others well my grip with sanity I am sure is in question especially my temper. However I am 10 times better than I use to be, thanks to Man, and to S/m and living as a no limits, consenual non-con relationship.
 
Thank you so much for bringing the darkness to light, for letting those of us who never have nor ever will fit inside the box can speak. They can call us crazy or self destructive or anything else that makes them feel better, we know the truth and we understand it and accept it .
 
 
Blessed Be
Gem
 
But pain... seems to me an insufficient reason not to embrace life. Being dead is quite painless. Pain, like time, is going to come on regardless. Question is, what glorious moments can you win from life in addition to the pain?
Lois McMaster Bujold, "Barrayar", 1991

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:55:37 AM   
ChaOz


Posts: 98
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Um ok, to heal you need counciling and professional help. You dont get that by revisiting it until it doesnt matter anymore, you learn to survive that way but not to face it and deal with it all. I just feel it needs to be said. 

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:05:20 AM   
Gem


Posts: 100
Joined: 2/11/2004
Status: offline 		Brightest Blessings
 
Been there, did that ,bought the tee-shirt did the band. Thearpy is a great thing for most people, some of us though it does not help. I don't revisit it until it doesn't matter anymore, that's what I use to do that is why I was so destructive and out of control .
 
I face it, I understand it and I learn to heal from it. I do not recommend it to anybody else, but  when I find a kindered soul share and understand.
 
Again sometimes you have to work outside the box, as well as think outside the box.  It's not for you I understand that, it's not for many folks but that is what makes a horse race.
 
Blessed Be
Gem
 
 

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:09:20 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Celeste,

I feel for you.  I can't even begin to say that I understand it or can even pretend to understand because I'm not in and have never been in that place.  However, just reading your post helps me understand the concept of "no limits".

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:40:49 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Awe inspiring post Celeste.........
I hope that everone takes the time to read your words.  There's so much to learn
in them even for those who've lives havnt made exterior scars. 

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 5:14:58 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		ChaOZ: The point of this post is that we so often see the world through our own eyes, not allowing any one else's reality in, and how misguided and limiting that can be....your comments seem to illustrate that idea.
 
I know first hand that one can heal themselves in a myriad of ways, faith, a supportive partner, self evaluation, immersion into the experience, a special pet, essential oils, massage, mediation, shamanisn...to name but a few.
 
I have had all of the above healing types of experiences, so to me they are a "knowing" something that can not be taken away....you only have one "knowing" yours involves psychotherapy, which i am not knocking btw,  and therefore your reality is there is only one way to heal.
 
 
 
Celeste, thank you for sharing, i too "know" that i would do anything for a man that i served if the connection and bond and well, brainwashing was as deep as two of my former masters.
 
I know this in my heart and in fact it was why i steered clear of the submissive part of me for so long and why all my bdsm relationships are always with me in control.... sub or Dom.
 
I am very scared of the no limit part of myself, not scared of the no limits....but scared of the sort of man that triggers my no limit self, he is always a frightening person who i loose myself completely with and all the text book complications that ensue form that.
 
Thank you for this post, it offered me a chance to become really clear on some things...and heal them just a little bit more.
 
I am so happy that you have found a way of healing that works for you too.

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 5:30:20 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for sharing that. I felt a bit of purging energy there, through your words and I hope that is true - that each time, it allows you to stand up and take a deep breath.

To your original intent, to show that there are those without "limits", I suspect those who are already open minded accept that there are no truisms, only a personal journey in all this. Those who don't will no doubt point out your trauma is what has shaped you to have "no limits" and will postulate to their heart's content about their own narrow POV.

Being a survivor of abuse, as is my girl, I 've found that we both feel that it has shaped us to who we am today, it still plays on our minds and it is something that never ends. No regrets and no sympathy needed, just accept us for who we are and "understand" what has shaped us.

Warmest regards to you and "Himself",
EO



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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 5:36:23 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for this post. It helps me understand some things about other people and myself.

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 5:56:12 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I am one of those who say that everyone does indeed have limits. It’s simply part of the human condition. We are imperfect and fallible beings and no matter what our intentions or motivations, we are limited by our physical capabilities. If given an order that supercedes our physical capabilities each and every one of us would fail, regardless of our desire to comply. We may make the attempt….and we may die trying...but death in itself would limit us to complete the task at hand. If any one of us were given an order today to scale the Empire State Building, naked and with no climbing gear….we would fail…every one of us. If we were given an order to hack off our legs at the knee and then run a 4 minute mile…we would fail…every one of us. Because as human beings we are limited as to what we are capable of.

I also believe that the vast majority of those who use the “no limits” moniker, do so in ways that reflect a sentiment that is very close to the one expressed in the quote by ImpGrrl. They are saying that they trust in their partner to define the limits and boundaries. I know that these are not the aspects you were addressing with your post though Celeste.

I am very sorry for what you have had to endure in life, although I don’t think that was what you are seeking here. I’m also very happy that you have someone in your life who has the integrity and sense to understand and interact with you in a positive way while taking into consideration the perspective from which you come. These sentiments for you are heartfelt.

But this is the point at which I am probably going to piss some people off. You are not alone Celeste and as some others have already pointed out, you will find those here whose Master’s or partners and this lifestyle have been their saving grace. And for each and every one of you out there I cannot begin to say how happy and grateful I am that your experience has been positive. But….for each and every one of you that has had that positive outcome, I believe there are just as many, if not many, many more…who become further injured and victimized by what they find here. And that is where my concern lies.

Those who come here and hear the term “no limits” and have no understanding of what exactly that may mean here….or worse yet, think it is something that they have to proclaim to find a partner here. It is for those who come here broken and seeking. Those who think that Dominants in this lifestyle might just be Saviors….or who are immediately scooped up by those who profess to be. Those who come here lacking the self-love that makes good decisions for themselves possible. Those who come in here emotionally bruised…and end up emotionally devastated.

I have said this more times than I can count and my feelings on it aren’t likely to change anytime soon...BDSM should NOT be viewed as a replacement for therapy. While it is indeed true that some are fortunate and find experiences here that help them….no one should come here with that as the ultimate goal. No one should come here looking for someone to fix them and be their Savior.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 11/5/2006 6:01:59 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 6:14:18 AM   
Gem


Posts: 100
Joined: 2/11/2004
Status: offline 		Brightest Blessings
 
I actually agree, nobody should come looking for a savior, I never looked for one. I actually don't think of Man as my savior, he is just Man, he can plug into me and offer me healing, hope and laughter and the means to achieve this.
 
Much the same way a thearpist is not a savior, but offers the means to heal.
 
However I do disagree on the first part of your post about no limits. In my opinion no limits does not mean that you acomplish the task necessarily, but that you obey the command. Yes death limits the completion of the task, however a no-limits slave would obey and follow thru with the order until death occured stopping them, where as somebody with limits would not even attempt the order because they would not cross their limits of no death or possible harm.
 
I believe that obedience is the differance and perhaps is actually the discussion rather than no-limits or limts.
 
Okay they are just my ramblings with one cup of tea so take it for what is worth :)
 
Blessed Be
Gem

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