quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

References are information sources.  Are you seriously advocating that less information is better than more information?  I suspect your position is hypocritical, in that you use references regularly in your daily life.  Everyone does.  You ask friends, family and business associates about people you do not know.  You either use references when applying for a job, or ask for them from potential employees.

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Sorry, mate, but we make people's personal history our business all the time.  If you have prior convictions for rape (literal, not play), a reputation for nonconsensually touching people you don't own, are married but telling potential partners that you're single... it surely is the business of anyone that might be interested in knowing the real you (at the very least for their own protection).  If you have a good reputation, there's nothing to worry about.  But if you're worried about your reputation, then avoiding groups is probably a good strategy.

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Who said anything about play?  I surely did not.  Relationships, control, consistency, etc. are also skill sets.  And while you may be living your relationships real time, please tell me where you learn what you know?  If you're not attending demos, munches, workshops, events, etc... just where is it that you have learned what you know?  Those questions are equally valid for B/D S/M skill sets as well.  Did you learn wax play from a video?  Did you learn fire and needle play in an online chatroom?  I'm not saying it invalidates you if you did, but don't you think potential partners have the right to be informed that your "Mastery" of fire play doesn't mean you've actually done it with a real human before?  What does informed consent mean to you?

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To have a good reputation within a group speaks well for anyone.  There's no flaw in that.  Don't hold it against someone that they are well thought of by others.  That's convoluted logic to the extreme.

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If I have an interest in socializing with other lifestylers (which I do), and an interested partner does not, it is most certainly a red flag regarding our compatibility.  That's undeniable.

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I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, so I won't even hazard a guess.  If you'd like to make another stab at it, feel free.

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I grasp the dynamics of power exchange relationships rather well, thank you.  I've even been known to present on the topic to groups, workshops, etc.  And while there may be some who need to "strut about" for personal validation, neither I nor the people I know fall into that category.  Though judging by how sensitive and defensive you are about this topic, you might benefit from a little personal validation yourself.
 
As for my (or anyone else's) references, they remain a valuable source of information when making the acquaintance of others.

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ORIGINAL: untamedshysub

well just because they have references does not mean much. I have seen people create whole companies and provide proof of income that never existed because they knew how to play the game. Know somoeone who purchased two BMW with fake references so no its not the reference that makes the Dom and even if they know the person that does not make me less crazy behind closed doors.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: Focus50
The inference has been that if I don't do it (references), I have something to hide - that I'm untrustworthy!  *pffft*
 
Focus.

The inference that you clearly make is that you're insecure about this issue.  Really, you're beyond having an intellectual discussion about the issue and are simply having a public hissy fit.
 
John
 
P.S. - Lots of very fine folks are interested in and participate in B/D S/M, without an interest in power exchange relationships.  Why do you continually besmirch them?  It is a personal challenge to be diplomatic with you, when you demonstrate such contempt for others and their kinks.  No wonder you are not part of any local community... frankly, bigots like you generally aren't welcome.

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ORIGINAL: Focus50

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ORIGINAL: Rover

References are information sources.  Are you seriously advocating that less information is better than more information?  I suspect your position is hypocritical, in that you use references regularly in your daily life.  Everyone does.  You ask friends, family and business associates about people you do not know.  You either use references when applying for a job, or ask for them from potential employees.

No, I'm advocating that my personal relationships are not nor ever the business of third parties - it ain't rocket science yanno!  Your suspicions are wrong, I do NOT use references in my everyday life nor even on a regular basis beyond a simple "Do you know a good plumber/electrician/mechanic" etc when such need arises; maybe once every few years....

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ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Focus -
 
Please do not ever use references...
 
I would hate for people to:
 
1. Have to vouch for you
2. Believe that you have people that will vouch for you
3. Have that additional ability and tool to use in order to ensure that they are safe if they ever meet you
4. Know 'your business'
5. Become "intimate" with you, but not THAT "intimate".
 
Is it too difficult to grasp that meeting someone can be rather tenuous and that this might place this person whom you shall "love, cherish and protect" at ease - knowing that you are the grand person you claim to be on the web?
 
I find that oddly silly.
 
But - I will tell you what -
 
The fact is, it does not matter whether you use them or not.
 
If someone else chooses to because they feel that it is yet another means of meeting people safely, then they will not be meeting you - 
 
But, what does it matter?
 
I just think "the lady doth protest too much" (and, too vehemently) about something that will not affect you...
 
Analogy:
Why would you deride people that choose to lock their houses at night - simply because you choose to not own a door?

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ORIGINAL: Rover

Your profile says you're employed.  If so, you might be a union member, where your union card is your reference.  Or you might be in management, in which case you would encounter the use of references daily for suppliers, equipment, computers or programming, etc.  Of course, it's always possible that you're a sheep herder, and might only need reference for an effective sheep dip.
 
You probably had a reference for a good dealership when buying a car (presuming you own one).  Perhaps the gent who services and repairs your vehicle also came to you by recommendation.  Maybe you had a reference for a real estate agent when buying a home.  Certainly the home inspector gave you a reference for the property before you were able to secure a mortgage, from the bank that was probably recommended to you by a friend. 
 
You might eat at a restaurant that come highly regarded by some family or friends who have eaten there previously.  Or shop at a store with a reputation for selling quality products for fair prices.  Your neighbor may have recommended the lawn service to you, since they do a good job for him as well.  Consumer reports might have given a good reference for the computer you use to connect to the internet and write insanely silly things on bulletin boards.
 
Or you could be the one idiot in all the world who do does not use references at all (my money is riding on you... you're very convincing).

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ORIGINAL: slavejali

This is my reference:

"Slave Jali is the most awesome amazing being in the entire world. If you don't believe it, your loss"

hehehe

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ORIGINAL: slavejali

Im blond too, I never realised you were from Australia lol

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ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

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ORIGINAL: Focus50

Protest too much (and, too vehemently)?  Can't I just be offering an alternate opinion?
 
Like the opinions of many others in this thread, your analogy assumes there's only one "right way".  Another analogy is that the wagons are clearly circling yet I'm the solitary indian.... lol  <puffs the chest wayyyy out>
 
Yorta get outside more....
 
Focus.

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ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

John:  I'm not gonna requote you because it would run too long, and you quoted me with some out of contexting which I don't want to perpetuate, but suffice it to say that if you "asked a recognized group" about the individual in question, you might get a GLOWING report because he funds and controls a local B/D/S/M group!  If you ask another group you'd get the message he is poison -- they actually took legal action against him.  In between, you'd get in between.  Your reliance on "organized" B/D/S/M groups to be honest, ethical or even organized is naive.  I agree with you regarding references not being all bad or all good, however.

E.