Rover
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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:
My assumptions aren't that everyone is, or should be, limiting their searches and only establish relationships based on these (or other) factors. My concern is this: That the objectives of such a relationship are no longer social in nature, but more closely resemble a service contract.
You seem like a genuinely nice guy, Stephan. And I've enjoyed reading many of your posts. But what business or concern is it of yours what someone else's relationship objectives are? I hope not to be the first to tell you that some folks want to be objectified in their relationship. Others want an emphasis upon service. Not everyone is seeking a relationship based upon the "traditional" social values. We're not all the same, nor are we all seeking the same relationship dynamic. You can't persist with this point of view without appearing to be incredibly short sighted, or a devotee of "the one true way".
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What's next? Someone who fabricates references being sued in a civil suit for falsification of references?
Like it or not, we live in a litiguous society, and people sue for any reason at all. I have already heard of successful lawsuits regarding personal relationships in which material facts were misrepresented. The only new aspect of your example is that it would involve a lifestyler, most of whom wouldn't want the public scrutiny.
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How about establishment of an International BDSM Registry, the kink version of the Better Business Bureau? Showcasing advertisements on Alt.com - "Top quality sub, USRA rating A, ready to ship!"
There are some people who claim to be able to do just that. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the recently deceased Jon Jacobs. There was even a recent effort to establish some sort of online "BDSM Certification". I think it's all quite silly, but people are regularly known to be silly. Doesn't stop them though, nor you and I (evidently) from having (or expressing) an opinion about it.
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The major complaint is the amount of time "wasted" in someone who is a fraud. If, as you suggest, distance and finance aren't considerations for some, then how much time is actually wasted? A week, chatting an hour or two a night at most?
I think you'll find that most women who meet someone online desire a more substantial "getting to know you" period before meeting real time. There's no standardized time frame, of course. When I was new to the net, I was an advocate of "not rushing" things, as I heard of all the awful things that seemed to happen regularly to poor defenseless submissives meeting crazed lunatics from the internet. It only made sense.... until such time as I realized that it didn't make sense. There were no accompanying newspaper articles or expose on 20/20 or Primetime Live, no corresponding string of real time victims in any of the (many) places I traveled, no death notices, no police investigations... you get my drift, don't you?
Point is, genuine or fraud, many folks are influenced to take an inordinate amount of time prior to meeting. Often this influence is from less than honorable sources.
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If it doesn't phase you to drop a $1000 on airfare, hotel for a couple nights, dinner, and what not (for either myself or my prospective 'date') then why all bru-ha-ha?
Because a bunch of online do-gooders has convinced her that she should wait months before meeting, since Dominants are frequently axe murderers. You know another good reason for references? Anyone out in the community knows this is utter BS, and simply uses good judgement about where and how to meet.
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On the other hand, if you're investing a serious amount of time (several weeks, months, or years) attempting to 'cultivate' an online relationship with the end objective of finally meeting, that's a different matter. I would say your time was wasted not because of lack of references, but by your own unrealistic expectations that everyone online shares the same interests you have in meeting and having a relationship.
It's true that many folks claiming to desire a real time relationship are just fibbing in hopes of manipulating someone into an online relationship that they can draw out for an extended period of time. If your expectations are genuinely for a real time relationship, whose expectations are unrealistic? What is unrealistic is to take people that you meet online at their word because... hold on to your seat... people on the internet lie about themselves and their intentions (*gasp*). Knowing that someone is out there in the community, is single, gender appropriate, etc. goes a long way to ensuring that your not the victim of someone who might fabricate the truth.
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This is the same as the real world example of meeting someone in a bar, and getting their phone number. You play phone tag for a few weeks, having great conversations now and then, but the other person never seems to really have time to meet, usually making work or personal related excuses. After about three to five weeks of this, isn't it frustrating to realize that the real reason is that they don't really want a relationship with you?
There are a few fundamental flaws in your example, Stephan. In your example you know the woman's gender, what she really looks like, have spoken to her on the telephone, can reasonably ascertain that she is single (no one else answers, she doesn't ask you not to call in the evening or to leave messages that unwanted ears might hear, etc.), you know something about her personality, decorum, how she dresses, interacts with others, etc. And despite the fact that there are no guarantees that she (or you) will want a relationship with each other, you can reasonably assume that she wants a real time relationship with someone.
Contrast that with meeting someone online who may require weeks of tedious emails and IM's before speaking on the telephone (it's ok to give out your number to a stranger in a bar, but a Dominant you meet online could be an axe murderer), assuming that they actually want a real time relationship at all (versus an enjoyable online fantasy), you don't know their actual gender or whether the photo received in email is actually her, whether she is single or married with three children, whether she has overpowering BO, brushes her teeth or hair, wears clownish clothing, swears like a stevedore... are you catching my drift?
To equate meeting someone face to face with "meeting" them on the internet is flawed at the outset.
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That either they are already in a committed (monogamous) relationship, or for whatever reason they don't mind having a 'phone friend' but they don't want to hurt your feelings by simply saying "You're not my type." Obviously, the person would have done you a big favor in letting you know this up front, but you do yourself a bigger favor by reading the signals up front - that if you don't meet in a reasonable amount of time (either online or off) you probably aren't going to meet. It isn't their fault for not having references, it's yours for having unrealistic social expectations.
Really, you sound a bit jaded. Now I'm not suggesting that I would intentionally ignore obvious signals, but like most people who have run into interesting potential partners online, I have surely been strung along only to find out that it was all a fabrication. And for every time I've been strung along, the effort to do so has been made twenty times. I'm not complaining, mind you. I realize this problem is inherent to the internet (and given that I am "out there" regularly, and over a rather substantial geographic area, the internet is far from my sole source of potential partners).
Now, define for me what is a "reasonable time" to meet? Ask ten people and you'll get ten answers. If your first meeting is simply to "authenticate the basics" (ie: gender, appearance, etc.) then a reference can do so much more easily and quickly.
Personally, I prefer to meet sooner rather than later for many reasons, some of which have been mentioned in this post. If I'm interested in someone, I have no problem flying out to spend the weekend somewhere to share some good food and conversation. If they're active in their local community, I enjoy attending a munch, workshop, etc. with them and to meet their friends. Seriously, what is so unrealistic about that?
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Simply put, if you just want to buy a kink date, why not just fly to Las Vegas?
Why would you assume such a thing? Who said anything about a kinky date? Are you inferring that anyone willing to travel to meet someone of interest is simply looking for a "kinky date"? Are you saying that such a person should hire the services of a prostitute? Really, Stephan... that sentiment is more than a little objectionable. In fact, it's downright offensive and says quite a bit about you.
John
P.S. - I've been to Vegas twice this year, and will be back again in January.
< Message edited by Rover -- 12/17/2006 6:26:40 AM >
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