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RE: References - 12/17/2006 5:47:10 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I cannot be completely certain, but I do seem to recall that TES requires references in order to attend their annual TES Fest. At least, that is my recollection based upon my last attendance a few years ago. Kinda negates your misapplication of their policy, doesn't it?

Interestingly, I have at my disposal someone who was in New York for Tesfest last July. She just informed me that all you have to do is pay a fee to get in. No references required.

As I said, I cannot be entirely certain that TES Fest requires references, though that is my recollection. The point is that many events do require references for your registration to be approved. Clamor all you want about privacy, you're not getting in without them.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to aSlavesLife)

RE: References - 12/17/2006 5:49:16 PM

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That has nothing to do with the DMV. That's the Texas Department of Public Safety. And so what? Like it was news that criminal records are public? Film at 11!

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I used to do criminal background checks at a previous job, but called a highway patrol friend of mine on this one just now. He says that each state has different procedures, but that it is possible to be obtained in any state. The one for Texas is https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/DPS_WEB/APP_SUPPORT/index.aspx?PageIndex=CreditInfo

(in reply to aSlavesLife)

RE: References - 12/17/2006 5:55:40 PM

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Is this the enforcement arm of the TIC thingie again, or what?

John Fuckin' Doe

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: References - 12/17/2006 5:57:51 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I take it from your misplaced ridicule that you are unfamiliar with law enforcement officers preferring to not place their lives in undue danger. The DMV database is nationally linked in order to provide officers with quick data on any traffic stop. The officer needs to know not only if the person has any outstanding trafic warrants, but also if the person is a criminal with convictions other than moving violations. Perhaps the mass murderer sees fit to obey traffic ordinance. For this reason, their database contains all criminal records.

This information can be obtained by any civilian at any police agency in America due to the freedom of information act. I mentioned the DPS only because you will get the fastest results with them. The link below is a DMV.org site which makes it quite easy.

Your sincere apology is graciously accepted.

http://www.dmv.org/criminal-records.php

It's not often that someone is so anxious to display their ignorance so publicly.

This information is not provided by any state or government agency. It's from a private company that simply wants you to part with $ 100 (or whatever the going fee is) for them to provide what limited information is legal for them to access, possess, and forward to you (which probably ain't much). There are a thousand such companies available on the net.

Just proof that a fool and their money is soon parted.

John

I used to do criminal background checks at a previous job, but called a highway patrol friend of mine on this one just now. He says that each state has different procedures, but that it is possible to be obtained in any state. The one for Texas is https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/DPS_WEB/APP_SUPPORT/index.aspx?PageIndex=CreditInfo
The other link looked legit, and not having the rolodex from my last job handy, was unsure of the name other than knowing that it involved dmv/dps.

By the way, I do so love the way you floated a banner attributing to your own ignorance concerning tesfest. Are you sure that you are active in your community? lol

I think that I might be more inclined to check my own claims before bashing others. Oh, but no ridicule and derision from the cult of references, is there?

Seriously, if you can't see the multiple posts of ridiculing Focus50, I don't think that a bumper jack could pry your eyes open enough to see it.

Ok, so now you're correcting the record. Good boy. It wasn't a government site you sent. It wasn't available through the DMV. It was a for profit online company of dubious origin that intentionally seeks to deceive the naive into thinking it's "official".

Now let's check your latest "source". Ooops, it says that "Access is restricted to authorized entities" for the Criminal History Conviction Database. Sorry, it's not open to the general public. But thanks for playing our game, here are some neat departing gifts and best of luck to you next time.

John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to aSlavesLife)

RE: References - 12/17/2006 6:49:11 PM

ModeratorEleven

Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
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Ok folks, it's "pretend you're an adult" time again. If the participants in this discussion cant or won't continue without the juvenile commentary and personal attacks, it's going to get shut down and some of you might win an all expense paid vacation from the forums.

Play nice.

XI

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This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 12:06:17 AM

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Joined: 12/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That has nothing to do with the DMV. That's the Texas Department of Public Safety. And so what? Like it was news that criminal records are public? Film at 11!

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I used to do criminal background checks at a previous job, but called a highway patrol friend of mine on this one just now. He says that each state has different procedures, but that it is possible to be obtained in any state. The one for Texas is https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/DPS_WEB/APP_SUPPORT/index.aspx?PageIndex=CreditInfo

DMV and DPS are in the same buildings here. But didn't someone else here accuse me of making up the fact that criminal records were avaliable to the public? I was just trying to show that there was a much more reliable method of obtaining personal information than by relying on references. Oh, and by the way, the last link I dropped works perfectly. Anyone who wishes to verify that only need to go to the site and check for themselves. But hey, if you aren't really concerned with helping people stay safe, why bother, right?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 2:20:30 AM

Posts: 2798
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From: Tampa, FL
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Disclaimer: i'm not posting in reply to anyone in particular!

Look, this discussion has gotten out of hand. Wow, people are supposed to get background checks on others just to meet them? The odd thing is, the few people i could call upon to give me a reference originally met me without references. If people need references, great, but there are plenty of fine, upstanding and honest people who don't have them. It goes back to the statement that was made to me years ago that if i wasn't willing to play in public i could not be trusted. Which to tend to make me think that all shy newbies cannot be trusted? Insist on references and background checks if you must. But if you are going to rely on references and background checks only well that's like having only one screwdriver in your tool box.

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(in reply to aSlavesLife)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 1:01:44 PM

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I am injured to the quick...

Your less than kind words have made me reconsider my position - and, I see that you were indeed not in the right

You've had to *reconsider* to now conclude I'm wrong ("not in the right")? So all your previous arguments on the board were merely about expelling hot air?

quote:

If sophistry is the most sincere form of insincerity, then you have sincerely been true to that ideal.

In the immortal words of the 'Bard'* "Dissemination, your name is out of focus to mere mortals and beggars of all stripe!"

What? This is because the Moderator is now involved? Your way of calling me even more names on a public board in the belief very few will see through your fog?

quote:

Time passes -as it is designed to do- and one day, I am sure that I will look back on this and laugh; but for the moment, I need to relax, as all of this giggling has given me a side ache...

One day you'll look back and laugh; but right now you're sore from laughing? Talk about people who like to hear themselves speak....

quote:

If ever we do meet, please do have those references we spoke about available... as I know you would have the ability to provide them if asked.

Finally, back on topic.... And I was under the impression references came *before* meeting, to decide if even a meeting would take place? But whatever, they're not my realm....

And you've missed my point about references.... I certainly could provide them in a physical sense but I'm against them for philosophical reasons, so I have not nor ever will provide references (read: involve 3rd parties) when it comes to personal relationships. A world of difference between 'can't' and 'won't'!

quote:

Tell the cricket team that I said "Hi"

You've had a real thing for my beloved cricket team - which has what to do with the topic? But they're not taking calls - busy celebrating another power-house victory. Or another analogy might be that the opposition ran out of puff, as have you....

Merry Christmas.

Focus.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 1:19:21 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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~Fast Reply~

Umm... I can give you the phone number of the first guy to tie me up. If he didn't mind talking to you. Other then that, I really don't think anyone in the community "knows" me. Naja and MakeMe can attest to the fact that I exist but they haven't seen me "in action". I mean, what sort of references are you looking for? Frankly, I'm rather shy in huge groups and the big guys in the groups that I do attend don't know that I exist. I stay in the corner with my dominant, drinking my appletini. Not everyone is gutsy enough to make the contacts that would be able to give references.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/18/2006 1:21:02 PM >

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(in reply to Serenityy)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 1:27:02 PM

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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

mnottertail: Who is TES and why would I care?

Dude, you don't remember Tes? She was the hot little subbie with the frenem piercing, the third nipple and the mohawk "down there" that we met at the Minnesota Ice Fishing and Shibari Annual Snowblow Fest last year!

I cannot believe you forgot her. You are getting old, Ron.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 2:53:49 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That has nothing to do with the DMV. That's the Texas Department of Public Safety. And so what? Like it was news that criminal records are public? Film at 11!

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

I used to do criminal background checks at a previous job, but called a highway patrol friend of mine on this one just now. He says that each state has different procedures, but that it is possible to be obtained in any state. The one for Texas is https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/DPS_WEB/APP_SUPPORT/index.aspx?PageIndex=CreditInfo

DMV and DPS are in the same buildings here. But didn't someone else here accuse me of making up the fact that criminal records were avaliable to the public? I was just trying to show that there was a much more reliable method of obtaining personal information than by relying on references. Oh, and by the way, the last link I dropped works perfectly. Anyone who wishes to verify that only need to go to the site and check for themselves. But hey, if you aren't really concerned with helping people stay safe, why bother, right?

The last few posts I've been teasing you because of my perception of your attitude. But I don't want my sarcasm to overshadow some good information.

1. You're absolutely correct that background checks can be a valuable source of information, though it is limited to those things that have risen to the level of involving the authorities and there is much to know about a person that does not involve an arrest or conviction. As a result, while background checks are a valuable piece of the information puzzle, it is not the entire picture by far.

2. It's my understanding that what constitutes "public access" differs from state to state, and background checks may be more or less complete depending upon where you live.

3. References can fill the gap on information that has not resulted in an arrest or conviction. There is much to know about a person that does not involve illegalities.

4. The more information available to us, the more informed (and presumably "better") decisions we are able to make.

I have used background checks on occasion, and even hired a private investigator a time or two, to confirm what someone (without references) had told me about themselves. I've never found anything in a background check that gave me reason for concern, but on the several occasions I used a private investigator I learned plenty. Of course, in retrospect there were red flags that prompted me to utilize the services of an investigator.

Bottom line is that there is a substantial difference between what we are "told" by an individual, and what we "know" about them. Any source of information, whether it be references (friends, family, lifestyle, etc.), background checks, private investigators or any other means helps bridge the gap between what we are "told" and what we "know", and that's a good thing.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to aSlavesLife)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 3:40:33 PM

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Mmmm if I learned someone I had been talking to on the internet had run a background check on me or hired a private investigator without my consent, I would not meet them. Period. It doesn't respect my right to my own privacy, and suggests the person is obsessive, and possibly dangerous.

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(in reply to Rover)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 4:16:03 PM

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Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline

So angry... yikes.

Can't we all just agree to disagree? I'm personally of the opinion that if you feel like you need more information, that you should discuss it with your potential Dom. If they resist without reason, that'd be a red flag for me personally, and I'd politely back off. If they offer some, check them out. If they seem legit, decide for yourself, but don't base your decision to meet on strictly references.

But this may not be everyone's idea. And that's ok. We need a BDSM Mr. Rogers to come in and calm everyone down, I think.

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(in reply to Voltare)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 4:18:50 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

Mmmm if I learned someone I had been talking to on the internet had run a background check on me or hired a private investigator without my consent, I would not meet them. Period. It doesn't respect my right to my own privacy, and suggests the person is obsessive, and possibly dangerous.

And that's your right to feel that way. I provide ample personal information for someone to run a background check on me (name, address, phone number, etc), offer to provide references, and suggest that they gather as much information on me as will help them ascertain my truthfulness. And I also indicate that I will do the same. So it's all out there in the open.

And anyone claiming to desire an intimate relationship with me, but claiming a "right to privacy", is waving a big red flag anyway. There is no such thing as "intimacy" at an arm's length.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Voltare)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 4:22:27 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

References are good to eliminate someone. Whether in the business world or relationship world they rarely are the penultimate make or break issue. How many give business or friend references of someone they consider an enemy, or someone they had a problem, or someone they stole? With that in mind, when I make calls to the references I am given for business purposes I'll call and listen to the 'glowing' report. Infrequently you can glean some insight, but rarely of something meaningful. I think the worst reference I ever got was something like; "He's a great worker but gets distracted if given an office instead of a cubicle." References are a good sifting process as long as you keep in mind the holes in the sifter are big.

When it comes to relationships the holes are not only big, but made to sift differently. A sub calling another sub about a Dom may report that he was good, but spanked too hard. Defining "hard" is subjective. Here again you can rely on generalities. "I've seen him at Munches." "I've seen him at clubs". "I've seen him play and the sub didn't die." All these are valid. I guess all these are "references". Are they worthy of staking your life upon? That an individual decision.

I used a reference when I first came out to LA to gain entry to a club. I was told that someone from the LA verified I was a member of a NYC group, but if I wasn't I bet I would still have been allowed to join. After all, new to the scene I would have been.

It's best to use all the resources when you are seeking. Why discount or eliminate any resource? You need to trust first and foremost. The requirement is taking personal responsibility and considering the source of the information. Most important - trust your instincts, trust yourself.

(in reply to Voltare)

RE: References - 12/18/2006 5:08:42 PM

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Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme
Uni, perhaps I am telling on my advanced degree of decripitude here, but a lot of ~cringe~ true Doms and Masters do not play in public, or have not played in public in a long time. They are private about their private lives.

Exactly. I have never been to a munch or dungeon and I never will. In my line of work I cannot. I've had a few SAS's challenge me on how "real" I am because I'm not open and out about this part of my life. I really don't have anything to prove. Just because I don't show this side to the world doesn't make it less real.

Further, I won't send pictures until I know that I don't already know the girl and she doesn't work in my field. There's just too much to risk.

(in reply to MmakeMme)

RE: References - 12/19/2006 12:02:50 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

Mmmm if I learned someone I had been talking to on the internet had run a background check on me or hired a private investigator without my consent, I would not meet them. Period. It doesn't respect my right to my own privacy, and suggests the person is obsessive, and possibly dangerous.

I have to agree with this. If I found anyone had run those sort of checks on me they would certainly not get any further. Hiring a private investigator to check someone out is the craziest thing I have ever heard. It would suggest paranoia to me and make me run a mile. Can you imagine meeting someone at a party or bar and saying to them that you could not have a relationship with them until you have hired an investigator to check them out??

(in reply to Voltare)

RE: References - 12/19/2006 12:25:57 AM

Posts: 223
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Minnenipples, Minnesnowta
Status: offline

~Fast Reply~

Tempest in an awfully large teapot, here.

I always recommend that people ask for, and check, references. One of the references I give is my ex - who knows that I despise her. I'm awfully public in a pretty large community - it's easy for me.

Not everybody can give, or easily check, references - they don't have access to that set of tools.

This has to become a flamewar?

(On the other hand, I knew someone who openly despised the use of 'references' - mostly, he was a non-con SOB who had a great sales pitch, but little respect for consent, and less understanding of the d/s dynamic other than "now I get to fuck her". He was barred from my corner of the community, but he did some damage before he was gone. I always think of him when I run into someone who not only doesn't want to bother with references, but objects when other people do. Just sayin'.)

Midnight Writer

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(in reply to susie)

RE: References - 12/19/2006 3:35:23 AM

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub

(On the other hand, I knew someone who openly despised the use of 'references' - mostly, he was a non-con SOB who had a great sales pitch, but little respect for consent, and less understanding of the d/s dynamic other than "now I get to fuck her". He was barred from my corner of the community, but he did some damage before he was gone. I always think of him when I run into someone who not only doesn't want to bother with references, but objects when other people do. Just sayin'.)

You share this little anecdote immediately *after* asking: "This has to become a flamewar?"
From page 1, the insinuations of the pro reference lobby have been that those of us who don't believe in them would fit loosely around your example - that *all* have something to hide! <sheesh>

Seems like only yesterday that it was cool to be anti "big brother".... Not being a smart-arse here but has American culture changed that much since the towers fell down?

Focus.

(in reply to emdoub)

RE: References - 12/19/2006 3:42:05 AM

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

If I have say I'm not being a jerk, there's a good chance it's because I am.

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"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to Focus50)

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