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RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 8:57:00 AM

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Joined: 11/22/2006
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Juliet, I think you answered your own question. It doesn't matter what the OP meant by "damage". Damage is whatever she says it is. As you pointed out in your story, it is the subs responsibility to speak out if things are getting too rough for her. It is the Dom's responsibility to honor that. But the key is experience. A beginner sub often does not know enough to know she has an obligation here. Many beginners feel that since they are the submissive one, they have to take whatever the Dom dishes out. And there are a whole lot of beginners and wannabe's in the lifestyle these days.

If I am playing with a beginner, I am always particularly cautious for this very reason. In the end it is both people's responsibility, but the primary responsibility should go to the more experienced player.

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 10:23:22 AM

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Joined: 9/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave
WOW that is why safe words are importent.. if something is going to far the salve should say something actualy any good Master should know he is going to far.. if she says something and the Master doesnt listen then the slave really needs to leave said "Master" because he aparently doesnt really care for the girls safety.

Magik's slave

MSlave, I'm not sure how long it's going to take you to realize that bdsm isn't all puppies and rainbows, but not all couples use safewords and not all masters will respond in a soft and cuddly way when a slave is in distress. It depends on if the distress is intentional or not, it depends on whether the master thinks the slave can handle more or not.

It's not at all necessarily a sign that the master isn't a great lover/master just because he doesn't follow how the slave thinks he should follow.

Hmm dont recall saying it was puppys and rainbows but Im not in the mood to argue so Ill leave that be and just adress where she sais something about bringing in the cops HMM seems to me that she is talking gneuan distress and NEED for him to stop for her own safety meaning he is going to far period and it is no longer a consentual thing. Then again you do like to defend everyones choises even if they arent safe sane or consentual.. not everything falls under the unbrealla of OK just because they claim its BDSM but whatever.. Me and Master DONT have a safe word but Master would never and has never hurt me like that if he did and didnt stop when i said it was really really too far I would be re avaluating him owning me.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 11:01:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So some women actually agree to no safeword the first time they scene with a guy before getting to know him? Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

it maybe dangerous... if a person was stupid about who they choose to play with..

kyra never had safewords the first time she play with me... it was also the first time she ever played.... last time I checked she is alive.

just a sec (( reaches over pinches her)) yup still alive.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 11:23:47 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Dear MLskajira, Ladies and Gentlemen;

When a person cannot take any more pain, this or that --it is time to tell the Master/Mistress/Dominant; "...my mind, spirit may want more but my body is screaming no more, it quits."

`Tis the truth, more often than not, where you want to go beyond physical discomfort in an act of pleasing. This holds true with going fine in the physical side but, your mind, spirit are screaming--no more, it quits.

First thing, is recognizing you're human. Second, a slave. If a Master, regardless what style or such does not recognize your plea for compassion; then it is time to go. You're not some unfeeling plastic punching bag.

Hopefully, he will go to softer. If he doesn't, hopefully he'll go from whatever he uses to bunny fur.

Question that needs to be asked from within -- is it really worth my life? permanent injuires that may affect/effect my abilities to live, to work, to be slave?

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 12:59:20 PM

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Distress does not equal revoking consent.

I am glad you said this. I have been in distress before while in Master's usage. He put me there intentionally as part of a learning process. I did not want to be there, but did not ask him to stop, either. He kept me there until he deemed it necessary to pull me out.

The result was phenomenal, and about 6 months later something happened in my life that was absolutely more than I could bear (having nothing to do with my Master at the time) - or so I thought. When I thought I would crumble, I drew upon that time of distress and realized my incredible strength at going through it....and not only did I not crumble but I faced what was happening dead-on.

In some relationship dynamics, the Master really does know what the slave needs, more than she does.

As for the OP, I'm not sure why simply communicating with her Master wasn't listed as an option. There is a lot of room for speculation in your hypothetical. Just how hard were the blows? I receive blows that I think are too hard but that are not damaging at all - I'm just a pain wimp. If I think I am actually in danger, my reaction to him changes in that I shriek and panic (like once when I thought my ankle was breaking). If going into a "scene" with him I am afraid of something, he will absolutely know that fear before he starts on me.

However, in my dynamic, I do not have the option of stopping a session. I do have the option of communicating to him during the session however, and he decides from there. If it got to the point where I considered calling the police on him and/or threatened to, my CM name would probably have to change to "unownedgirlie."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 1:05:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So some women actually agree to no safeword the first time they scene with a guy before getting to know him? Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

kyra never had safewords the first time she play with me... it was also the first time she ever played.... last time I checked she is alive.

Heh...The first time I was used by my Master was the first time I was ever experienced BDSM play, also...and I had no safewords. And this is not the ghost of me writing this post...lol.

The thing is, everything in life is potentially dangerous. Given my car accident rate in the last year and a half, it was more risky for me to actually drive to see my Master than it was for me to be used without a safe word.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 2:31:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Juliet, I think you answered your own question. It doesn't matter what the OP meant by "damage". Damage is whatever she says it is. As you pointed out in your story, it is the subs responsibility to speak out if things are getting too rough for her. It is the Dom's responsibility to honor that. But the key is experience. A beginner sub often does not know enough to know she has an obligation here. Many beginners feel that since they are the submissive one, they have to take whatever the Dom dishes out. And there are a whole lot of beginners and wannabe's in the lifestyle these days.

If I am playing with a beginner, I am always particularly cautious for this very reason. In the end it is both people's responsibility, but the primary responsibility should go to the more experienced player.

Now see, I don't think that at all. New or not, there is no such thing as "primary responsibility." I am responsible for myself. The dominant is responsible for himself. The thing about this stance is that it accomplishes the very thing you're talking about. If a dominant is responsible for himself, he's going to be cautious. If a submissive is responsible for herself, she's going to be cautious, and when there are Ooopses, both of them stand a better chance of getting through them intact - without the spectre of sirens and flashing lights.

And I say this from the point of view that my very first experience within bdsm was with someone who is precisely like what was described by the OP.

That night, I knew NOTHING. Not one damn thing. By your estimation, the onus was on him to treat me in a manner that was appropriate to my level of experience (more aptly referred to as inexperience). And you're probably right - but not because he had to take care of me. He should have been more cautious because he should have taken bettr care of HIM.

I got hurt. I got hurt badly. Badly enough that I was unable to speak for much of the time following the things we did. I can, to this day, recall the grain in the headboard because focusing on that grain as I kind of stepped out of myself was the only thing I could do.

In the days and weeks following that time, I was in bad shape as I came to some definite conclusions.

First of all, yep, he was out of line. There were some things he did that even more experienced people would have had issues with.

But secondly, and more importantly, it was ME who was out of line. I didn't know anything. I had NO business putting myself in that position. I didn't understand anything that he was saying and I didn't "get" what my responsibilities were. Those were not HIS issues. They were mine. They also were valid enough for me to say that despite how much I got hurt, the responsibility for me even being there rested solidly on me.

And I did what was necessary - what I SHOULD have done first. I stepped back, slowed down, and spent some valuable time learning where I'd gone wrong, where he'd gone wrong and just whose responsibility what was. I didn't take on his, but I certainly didn't abbrogate mine.

The very fact that I was sorting things out and asking questions told me a LOT. It told me I wanted to learn; it told me that I had a long way to go; and mostly, it told me that I was here to stay because after that situation, if I wasn't, I'd have been running hard in the opposite direction. Now, I'd have liked it if I didn't get hurt in order to learn those things, but just because I did, didn't change the lessons.

And yes, given what happened that night, calling the police just may have been an option if I hadn't taken the stance that there was more to learn here than "ooh, he's a big bad meany guy - lock him up!!"

So yes, it's her right...it's anyone's "right" to call the police. However just because they have the "right" to do so, doesn't make it right...y'know?

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 1/1/2007 2:34:23 PM >

(in reply to SirDominic)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 2:32:33 PM

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Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
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That is where trust comes in. There has to be trust there or bad things can possably happen. Most of the time their due to lack of communication.

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 2:35:29 PM

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

That is where trust comes in. There has to be trust there or bad things can possably happen. Most of the time their due to lack of communication.

Oh heck! Bad things can happen even when trust is right smack there with them. It's not about trust. It's about knowledge. It's about taking one's time and it's about making decisions about what each of us want to do and then standing by those decisions.

juliet

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 3:10:28 PM

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Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So some women actually agree to no safeword the first time they scene with a guy before getting to know him? Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

Why are you assuming that the people scene before getting to know one another?

Ive never been a casual player, so I cant speak to the OP from that perspective.
But goodness gracious, if my partner is so out of control that I am considering calling the police, something went wrong a long time before the blow that I decided was "too hard".

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 4:46:24 PM

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Juliet, I think you answered your own question. It doesn't matter what the OP meant by "damage". Damage is whatever she says it is. As you pointed out in your story, it is the subs responsibility to speak out if things are getting too rough for her. It is the Dom's responsibility to honor that. But the key is experience. A beginner sub often does not know enough to know she has an obligation here. Many beginners feel that since they are the submissive one, they have to take whatever the Dom dishes out. And there are a whole lot of beginners and wannabe's in the lifestyle these days.

If I am playing with a beginner, I am always particularly cautious for this very reason. In the end it is both people's responsibility, but the primary responsibility should go to the more experienced player.

Now see, I don't think that at all. New or not, there is no such thing as "primary responsibility." I am responsible for myself. The dominant is responsible for himself. The thing about this stance is that it accomplishes the very thing you're talking about. If a dominant is responsible for himself, he's going to be cautious. If a submissive is responsible for herself, she's going to be cautious, and when there are Ooopses, both of them stand a better chance of getting through them intact - without the spectre of sirens and flashing lights.

<edited for brevity>

juliet....

I have always enjoyed your postings even when I did not agree with them. I find your viewpoint very refreshing and clearheaded.

If you dont mind, I would like to save this post and use it if necessary as I think it is the most clearly rational advice anyone can give someone new to this lifestyle.

Thank you for sharing your experience~

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 4:57:25 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2006
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ditto for me about juliets POV, thank you juliet for being so honest. It takes more courage to look deeper into yourself and your own actions then shovel all the blame onto the other party. We all have an equal share of responsiblity in our relationships I do not care what dynamic it is, both sides are equally responsible for every accomplishment as well as every failure.

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 5:00:13 PM

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira

if a girl finds herself in a situation with her Master where the blows are becomming too hard, does she have the right to stop the session and even tell Him she will involve the police if He does not?
not just because she does not feel like haveing a session, but because she is afraid He will do actual damage if not checked.
or should she wait it out and talk to Him afterwards?

Good evening. ~smiling~

Seeing that you are a karjira, I am not certain if you wanted a submissive's take on this situation since subs, slaves, and kajirae are all very different. I've seen everyone's thoughts here and a lot of them revolve around the use of safewords, which kajirae do not use. Many posts point to open communication, and I do agree with that and believe it is something agreed to across the board; however, I would ~love~ to see thoughts from kajirae and more Gorean Masters, as well as opinions of Free (Gorean) Women. Very interesting post, MLskajira.

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 7:50:08 PM

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juliet, I think we are basically saying the same thing. Not totally, but essentially. I'm big on personal responsibility, taking responsibility for one's actions, so I''m sure not going to debate to the contrary. I do, however, believe that responsibility is not always equal. If one person is supposedly "experienced" and another is not, I do believe the experienced one has more of the responsibility. Not all of it, just more of it.

In your first example, where the girl got in over her head with a Dom she was not ready for, for example. It was her fault for taking on more than she was prepared for, despite the advice of others. But my question is where was the Dom? His first time playing with her, why wasn't he checking with her periodically to make sure she was okay? That is part of his "job" and if really was experienced, he should have known that. So I do fault him more than the sub.

As for the police issue, I made no comment about that at all.

Sir Dominic

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: going too far - 1/1/2007 11:11:24 PM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

The answer to the original question, to my mind is an unequivical yes; the sub has the right to stop the session at any time. Period. If a safe word is being used, and a sub uses it and the Dom ignores it, that is simply not acceptable within the safe, sane and consensual nature of the lifestyle. Any Dom who will not honor a safe word is not someone I would ever have dealings with again.

As others have pointed out, extensive communication between the two is very important, and for experienced players, can often be sufficient. For beginners, that communication is even more important, and a safe word should be included as well.

Besides any Dominant who knows what they are doing should be monitoring the scene anyway, and they should know before the sub when things are nearing the edge. Some subs are easier to read than others though, so again, a safe word is not out of line in case the Dom does not catch the signals.

We also have to make the distinction between subs and slaves, the former having a LOT more control of their situation than the latter. That being said, a slave is only a slave as long as they consent to being one. If their master is abusive, they have the right to leave. If they are refused this right that is criminal behavior and the law will come down heavily if they find out.

Some of the points I think are very important include:

How experienced is the sub in the lifestyle? (and taking their word for it is not good enough).
How experienced is the Dom? (and taking their word for it is not good enough).
How comfortable are the two with each other? There should be a good chemistry between the two before they even begin playing.
How long have you known each other? The less time, the more communication up front is needed.

As for the Dom, as you get to know him (again before play begins), is he in control of himself and his life? Does his actions match his words? If not, be very careful; those are either players or doms who are not in control. If they can't be in control of themselves, you sure don't want them to have control over you.

Finally you have to know yourself well enough to know what you want, on both sides of the chains. If you do, less restrictive play is acceptable, if you do not, you have to go more slowly as you work your way into what activities you are comfortable with, which ones you are not. This is a journey the Dom/sub take together.

Sir Dominic

I agree with this posting...frankly it said better than I, my own personal take on it all....One IMO must and should have both good communication and safe words set up, just in case...I know many are not proponents of the "safeword" but eh, when have any of us in this site fully agreed upon anything?..~g~...Tempting

(in reply to SirDominic)

RE: going too far - 1/2/2007 5:47:05 AM

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I've always thought safewords are best, then discussion after the scene is over. Come on, how can anyone expect to get into a complete and rational "communication mode" while in head space? Why, I've known some masochists who can barely utter a "color" let alone a complete thought. And as far as being a Sadist, the last thing I want is a distraction to take away my focus on the safety of my submissive. Besides, who wants to break the flow of energy from one to another during a scene.

The first time a Sadist goes too far, whether one uses safewords or "talks themselves silly" during a scene, that needs to be the last time until some serious limits are set. Afterward, if limits are broken, fun like Hell and feel free to mention names.

LBO

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: going too far - 1/2/2007 5:49:59 AM

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Joined: 9/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne

I've always thought safewords are best, then discussion after the scene is over. Come on, how can anyone expect to get into a complete and rational "communication mode" while in head space? Why, I've known some masochists who can barely utter a "color" let alone a complete thought. And as far as being a Sadist, the last thing I want is a distraction to take away my focus on the safety of my submissive. Besides, who wants to break the flow of energy from one to another during a scene.

The first time a Sadist goes too far, whether one uses safewords or "talks themselves silly" during a scene, that needs to be the last time until some serious limits are set. Afterward, if limits are broken, fun like Hell and feel free to mention names.

LBO

that's run, not fun

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)

RE: going too far - 1/2/2007 5:56:05 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
If the sub or slave is in distress and the master doesn't stop, doesn't that mean consentual has now become nonconsentual?

No.

If the slave withdraws consent and the owner doesn't stop, *then* it is nonconsensual.

But just being in distress doesn't necessarily signal nonconsent.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

RE: going too far - 1/2/2007 5:58:12 PM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: simplewhispers
actual damage to someone that adores him does not stay with the description of "safe,sane and consentual "

How do you define "damage"?

On top of that - not everyone follows "safe, sane, and consensual".

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: going too far - 1/2/2007 5:59:17 PM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I think of any Master who won't allow a safeword in the beginning of a relationship as potentially abusive.

I think you're not thinking widely on this one. Not all relationships allow, or desire, safewords. Not even in the beginning.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

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