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"Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:14:30 AM

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I "get" the idea of "punishment" as a means to add spice and fulfill fantasies as part of BDSM. "You've been a bad girl now drop your pants and come over here". Punishment scenes can be really fun and very hot. I don't get the idea of punishment though when there is a sincere attempt to change behavior, deal with emotional issues or overcome conditioning. The main reason I don't get it is because we are all supposed to be adults here and I can not understand why adults should need to be punished. Instead I would hope that as adults we should be mature enough to be responsible and accountable. Now as I said....if the end goal is to get hot and kinky and fulfill a fantasy....I'm right there with it.

I believe that life issues are better solved with communication, education, support and positive affirmation or in some cases, professional help. As I said in another thread, if putting clothespins on your nipples, sticking a beer can up your twat and spanking your clit with a wooden spoon on web cam was an effective method of resolving issues or changing thought patterns or behaviors......mental health professionals would be prescribing it. There is a reason they're not.

Here on collarme we have an endless string of "I need punishment ideas " threads. I think that somehow, somewhere along the line these concepts got linked to this lifestyle to the point that some think that's what this is based on or about.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:28:06 AM

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quote:

Punishment scenes can be really fun and very hot. I don't get the idea of punishment though when there is a sincere attempt to change behavior, deal with emotional issues or overcome conditioning. The main reason I don't get it is because we are all supposed to be adults here and I can not understand why adults should need to be punished.

Yup. This is exactly where I get tripped up.

The only positive function I can imagine any kind of positive impact corporeal punishment to have is to quickly and radically alter a person's frame of mind, kind of like a reset button. This isn't really punishment, though, but intervention, like slapping someone to prevent them from going into a hysterical fit. Personally, I could see how it could set the stage for clear-headed communication. Somebody once gave me a paddling to arrest a panic attack and I can bring myself out of a really funky headspace by slapping myself really hard.

But, I'm with you. Punishment shouldn't be necessary with adults and I wonder how it could be effective.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:32:41 AM

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punishment is a valid part of the D/s lifestyle for many, tho it's not mandatory and certainly not for everyone. mistoferin i'm actually at the opposite end of the spectrum from you (as usual lol) in that i don't understand those who engage in play punishments. to me the very concept is an oxymoron and makes no sense. if something is intended for mutual fun and kink, why not just call it that, why give it the label of punishment? but that's another topic.

as for real punishment, as a correction for disobedience or poor behavior (i've never heard of punishment being used in the other 2 ways you mentioned)...people do it because it can be very effective. punishment does not relieve one of personal responsibility or accountability, nor does it equate to a lack of open communication, discipline, and other valuable tools.

when i am physically punished (not all punishments are physical, but thought i'd focus on that for the purposes of this thread), it's never just a beating/spanking then send me on my way. we sit down and talk about it. we discuss what went wrong and how to prevent the same thing from reoccuring in the future. if there was an emotional or psychological reason for the poor behavior, we get into that as well. the physical punishment itself serves a myriad of purposes...it serves as further incentive for not repeating the poor behavior, it serves as a release for my Master in case my actions caused him irritation or anger, it serves as an emotional and mental release for me, helping to ease the guilt somewhat and feel as if my "sins" have been washed away for the time being. it allows me to move forward from that point with a positive "i can do better" focus, as opposed to a negative "i'm a failure, can't do anything right" focus. physical punishment also serves to instill and maintain fear of my Master in me, which we both feel is an important, crucial element of our dynamic.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:41:49 AM

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I have found that subs punish themselves for transgressions long before I'd ever have the chance. A good sub or slave feels so badly about screwing up that he mulls it over in his head until he's completely unwound about it. Also a good sub or slave doesn't try to get in trouble to simply be punished.

So I'm right there with you...punishment for play! woo hoo. When I do feel something needs to happen my words always speak louder than any action would.

D~

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:41:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

punishment is a valid part of the D/s lifestyle for many, tho it's not mandatory and certainly not for everyone. mistoferin i'm actually at the opposite end of the spectrum from you (as usual lol) in that i don't understand those who engage in play punishments. to me the very concept is an oxymoron and makes no sense. if something is intended for mutual fun and kink, why not just call it that, why give it the label of punishment? but that's another topic.

Because it's the idea of it being a punishment that's arousing. In my experience both people are quite aware that it's just for fun, but it takes all the energy out of the moment if you say it.

Valyraen and I do both. We have the not-fun punishments and the yummy-yummy kind. We don't do a lot of the not-fun punishments because it's just not needed. We both agree that I'm an adult, not a child, but we also agree that he has the control. So if I mouth off for real, not to amuse him, I get sent to the corner. When something needs to be talked about, we talk about it. When just I lost control of my mouth, there really isn't much to talk about.

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It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:43:54 AM

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If punishment does not work on adults, why do we have prisons? Why do the police give speeding tickets? Why do employees try to avoid letters of reprimand? Of course punishment, or rather the fear of punishment, works to change adult behavior. We can argue whether it is the best way to change behavior. We can hope all adults are mature and responsible but experience teaches otherwise.

Of course, to be effective, punishment must be unpleasant. A light spanking of someone who enjoys it will reinforce the bad behavior. Making that same person sit in the cornor for an hour or do extra chores may be very effective.

Just because punishment is a fantasy for some of us does not mean that real punishment is ineffective. Take away something I like or make me do something I hate and you can punish me in a very real way and change my behavior.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:45:46 AM

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I will agree that positive reinforcement and simply talking about things is a much better effective way to correct behavior.

I disagree, however, that punishment has no place in adult relationships because in many contexts of our society and vanilla life, we, as adults, are subject to consequences for our actions.

If we speed, we get tickets. If we steal, we get sent to jail. These are punishments that grown adults are subject to by the police (authority figure).

Even at work...if I am more than 20 minutes late, I can be sent home for the day by the boss. If my boss simply used positive reinforcement all the time and sat down and talked with me about my tardiness, I would begin to seriously question his authority at the work since there isnt any real consequences to my actions.

Anytime you are in a position of authority there is going to be a time when you are going to have enforce that authority and show to a degree, that there will be consequences for disobedience.

Some relationships dont have any punishmenets outside of the ultimate one. Willfull Disobedience = End of Relationship. Nonethless, the aspect of discipline is still there.

Also, your example, of "spanking the clit with a wooden spoon on the web cam" isnt really all that effective of a punishment, because it has nothing to do with a particular rule being broken. However, if I were to make a submissive refold an entire drawer of clothing because she was lazy when folding and putting them away, that would be an effectice way to correct behavior. Its applying discipline, providing a negative to cause incentive to do a positive behavior, and establishing authority.

Even then, there is still a lot of talking involved to make sure its understood why I am unhappy, why this happened, and what needs to be done so the punishment doesnt have to happen again.

I think, a lot of what screws up the notion of punishment, is that people cant think outside of kinky and erotic terms. The really great dominants who have taken time to talk with me and mentor me have had absolutely zero kink involved with any of their punishments. Even corpreal is kind of "end of the line, you've really fucked up, no other alternative."

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 4/30/2007 7:49:08 AM >

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:45:55 AM

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quote:

the physical punishment itself serves a myriad of purposes...it serves as further incentive for not repeating the poor behavior, it serves as a release for my Master in case my actions caused him irritation or anger, it serves as an emotional and mental release for me, helping to ease the guilt somewhat and feel as if my "sins" have been washed away for the time being. it allows me to move forward from that point with a positive "i can do better" focus, as opposed to a negative "i'm a failure, can't do anything right" focus. physical punishment also serves to instill and maintain fear of my Master in me, which we both feel is an important, crucial element of our dynamic.

It may be a difference of semantics, but when I think of punishment, I think of it in terms of a penalty.

I can see what you're saying here, but much of it seems to emphasize the symbolic, emotional effects of punishment which to me could be ritualized with out being connected to specific behaviors. In that case, even an s-type who doesn't misbehave would get punished because the point of the punishment is divorced from particular actions. Which is why I can understand 'play' punishments (and I empahsize the scare quotes because I don't mean to imply that they wouldn't be serious) but not punishments given as a consequence of misbehaving.

I guess part of is because I wonder why an s-type would be misbehaving in the first place.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:48:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I "get" the idea of "punishment" as a means to add spice and fulfill fantasies as part of BDSM. <snip>

I think that somehow, somewhere along the line these concepts got linked to this lifestyle to the point that some think that's what this is based on or about.

there ya go...
There's your somehow

on the other hand... most of us that view this less like fulfilling a fantasy based interest & apply this to our day to day lives use punishment as it is clearly defined & "don't get" the convoluted form that bdsm players use

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/30/2007 7:50:03 AM >

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:52:02 AM

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See, I'm the exact opposite of you in this regard, mistoferin.

I don't get the idea of "play punishment" -- it just doesn't make much sense for me. Maybe because I'm a sadist and a slave owner? I don't need an excuse to hurt someone, I do it because I want to.

As for punishment to correct behave I think positive feedback is more useful but sometimes a punishment can drive home the fact that the issue is serious or has serious consequences. I think punishment should always fit the problem. Ideally I think they should offer practice in doing things or behaving properly over and over and over again.

Ultimately I think repeated problems indicate a mismatch in partnership.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:56:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BayouSub
If punishment does not work on adults, why do we have prisons? Why do the police give speeding tickets? Why do employees try to avoid letters of reprimand?
i agree and note that none of these punishments involve hot, kinky, fantasy type actions (well, ok - some folks may have prison fantasies , but you know what i mean...lol).

Of course punishment, or rather the fear of punishment, works to change adult behavior. We can argue whether it is the best way to change behavior. We can hope all adults are mature and responsible but experience teaches otherwise.
Yes, i agree and would add that i, for one, AM a mature and responsible individual nearly all the time but have done things that required punishment from Master. Everyone errs from time to time, i would assume.

Of course, to be effective, punishment must be unpleasant. A light spanking of someone who enjoys it will reinforce the bad behavior. Making that same person sit in the cornor for an hour or do extra chores may be very effective.
Good point. i just posted on another thread about a punishment i received recently that was very effective. My punishments are NEVER physical. Master is fond of saying that He doesn't need an excuse to do whatever He wants to me and if He's in the mood to spank me, whip me, or whatever, He just does it and never connects it with the idea of punishment. For me, pain is pleasurable, not punishment. (i do understand that it probably depends on Master's state of mind while administering it as to whether it's always pleasurable, but He just never takes that route).

Just because punishment is a fantasy for some of us does not mean that real punishment is ineffective. Take away something I like or make me do something I hate and you can punish me in a very real way and change my behavior.
i agree. It really IS different for everyone. The punishment i received was basically lots of extra rules and a research paper. Usually, i don't have lots of day-to-day regulations to adhere to so the fact that He added several really served to remind me everytime i followed one just WHY i was having to. And the paper....to meet His high standards it took lots of time and work. There was hardly any point during the 2-week "punishment phase" that i was not fully aware that i was being punished and why. THAT was very effective for me, unlike physical punishment.........slave luci

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:56:47 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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i'm with the notion punishment should not be fun or playful.....but thats just me.....

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:02:19 AM

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quote:

I don't get the idea of "play punishment" -- it just doesn't make much sense for me. Maybe because I'm a sadist and a slave owner? I don't need an excuse to hurt someone, I do it because I want to.

I think TammyJo sums up how I feel about it. I just do these things regardless of whether they are deserved or not. And my sub lets me do it because she knows I have to. And that, my friends, is love. ;-)

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:06:06 AM

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fast reply

I think that it just depends on the submissive whether or not punishments are effective. Lets face it, some are attracted to this lifestyle because they do not want responsibility, and that is ok because that is where they are in this life. For others of us punishments are not necessary (especially the ones described in the OP).

I think it is what the parties involved get out of the punishment.

In my reality it would not work for me for a few different reasons. I do not want to see him as the "cop" or the person that hands out penalties to me. Those people are distant untouchable and unswayable authorities that have a power over me that stems from what other people have given them. I did not give cops power, I did not give a judge power, I did not give my boss their power. I gave my Daddy power. I gave it because I wanted to.

Most of us obey laws for more reasons than some penalty will be bestowed upon us. There is a desire to fit into society. Even if the penalty maybe part of the reason that many people obey laws, most evolved people do so for more intrinsic reasons. I see myself as the type of person that does the "right" thing more often than not because of an inner drive to do so. If I were a dominant, I would desire a submissive that was motivated intrinsically to behave themselves, and not motivated by a carrot and a stick. In my view the carrot and the stick is a very primitive way to get what you want out of someone, but it is also appealing to the person's most base instincts, isn't it? One can condition a dog in such a manner too, but I tend to think that submissives are more intelligent than dogs (and even dogs respond better to the carrot over the long term than to the stick).

Just some thoughts

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:07:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Punishment scenes can be really fun and very hot. I don't get the idea of punishment though when there is a sincere attempt to change behavior, deal with emotional issues or overcome conditioning. The main reason I don't get it is because we are all supposed to be adults here and I can not understand why adults should need to be punished.

Yup. This is exactly where I get tripped up.

The only positive function I can imagine any kind of positive impact corporeal punishment to have is to quickly and radically alter a person's frame of mind, kind of like a reset button. This isn't really punishment, though, but intervention, like slapping someone to prevent them from going into a hysterical fit. Personally, I could see how it could set the stage for clear-headed communication. Somebody once gave me a paddling to arrest a panic attack and I can bring myself out of a really funky headspace by slapping myself really hard.

But, I'm with you. Punishment shouldn't be necessary with adults and I wonder how it could be effective.

"Behavior modification" is a process. And it usually takes a concerted bilateral effort to be effective.

Truth to tell-I have had girls in the past who seemed to think you weren't Dom enough if you just talked things over. What it really meant was that they were lazy-they wanted the Top to do all the work-while they kept screwing up.

This is hardly a workable solution to any sort of personality issue.

For it to actually work-there are three main ingredients. And they have clear priorities.

1. Desire-the sub sees the NEED to make an effort-there is no denial.

2. Determination. Both parties decide to make a concerted and consistent effort to make the needful changes.

3. Coordination- a methodology is tried-and modified as needed until the result is achieved-with no back sliding into the old pattern.

Of course-this is all work-which is why an ass beating is usually preffered.

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:11:28 AM

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I remember you bringing this up before, although not as your own thread.

In July of last year, you said, "It would seem that the ability to recognize one's own mistakes and take personally responsibility and be accountable for them is a harder concept for some than punishment. This is easy to understand because when one is punished the responsiblity for "correcting the behavior" or "making things right" is on the punisher. Much easier for the punishee. "

I'm not sure why you think the one who is receiving punishment is not responsible for correcting their behavior. As has been explained in previous threads, some people need to feel a strong impact of consequences in addition to learning the lesson. Punishment can bring about a sense of cleansing and letting go, as well as jarring someone hard enough that he/she does not forget. Punishment used to be extremely effective for me. It is less so now, but at times I will ask him for it as it might help me close the door on an issue, or to demonstrate the only way I can express remorse. In any case, I'm the one that ultimately would need to adjust my behavior.

In August of last year, I wrote, "In my case, there are several reasons why he might administer punishment. One (and probably the most common) is because he finds it is befitting for me to suffer consequences for jeopardizing what we have. Another is because sometimes my head is really thick (and stubborn) and that is a sure-fired way to get my attention about something. Another is because it softens me when I need softening. And still another is because there are times I feel badly and have trouble forgiving myself without suffering for him."

The thing is, I do not really get punished anymore, as the more evolved I am with him the less I need that jarring or softening. I think it really depends on what gets a person's attention. Different disciplines in life work for different people. Earlier in my relationship with my Master, that extra jolt of a punishment was the only language I could understand.

In July of last year, I wrote, "In my case, it is fairly rare and quite serious. And the reasons behind it are always uncovered, sometimes as a major revelation to both of us. Typically afterwards, the bond is even tighter - not because of the punishment itself, but because of my gratitude for him working with me, and because the underlying issue was uncovered and dealt with. In my case, a screw up is never due to defiance or refusal to obey, but because of something much deeper. LOTS of time is spent in contemplation and conversation and the severity of the actual punishment is such to ensure I won't forget it. It works for us, in the long run. He feels I need it, and I agree."

While punishment is rare in my relationship now, when it occurs, it always comes with the requirement that I analyze what went wrong, why it went wrong, and how I can prevent from going wrong in the future. Punishment does not take the place of responsibility for recognizing and fixing a problem.

I do disagree with your mental health prescription analogy, though. My slavery is what helped me break through all sorts of baggage and I don't see a lot of professionals prescribing slavery to people, either.

As for "I need punishment ideas," I confess I shake my head at those inquiries, as it only tells me the person asking for them has no idea what is effective to their submissive. I tend to believe if one knows one's subject well, there wouldn't be a need for such questions.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:11:32 AM

MyMasterStephen

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pun·ish·ment (pŭn'ĭsh-mənt) n.

1.       a. The act or an instance of punishing
        b. The condition of being punished

2.       A penalty imposed for wrongdoing.

To me, the idea of punishment being regarded in any way as "play" is grossly undermining to the whole concept.

Different forms of response are required for different types of misdemeanour. In some cases, a punishment is not the right course and sitting down to talk about something is more appropriate. But on other occasions a genuine corporal (and corporeal as someone else spelled it) punishment is absolutely appropriate, and will be given. To then, at some later time, impose the same kind of punishment as "play", without any defined purpose or function, is contradictory and confusing and completely counter-productive.

Earthycouple was completely correct in saying that a good submissive will punish themselves for their own wrongs. However, using this as a justification to relegate punishment to merely a "play" activity is deeply misguided. Punishment by definition is a penalty. It is bad, nasty, unpleasant, and the possibility of it should be regarded as a deterrent. To redefine it as "adding spice" or being "fun" or "hot" is to take away its meaning completely and to give it an entirely other function.

Add spice by all means, but if you wish to speak English then do NOT call it "punishment".

As to people who ask for punishment ideas, all I would say is this: get to know your submissive better. If you can't work him/her out for yourself, then give up and go nilla.

< Message edited by MyMasterStephen -- 4/30/2007 8:16:01 AM >

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:12:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I don't get the idea of "play punishment" -- it just doesn't make much sense for me. Maybe because I'm a sadist and a slave owner? I don't need an excuse to hurt someone, I do it because I want to.
my Master feels exactly the same way.

As for punishment to correct behave I think positive feedback is more useful but sometimes a punishment can drive home the fact that the issue is serious or has serious consequences.
Yes, and for me personally as a slave, something physical just wouldn't serve this purpose.

I think punishment should always fit the problem. Ideally I think they should offer practice in doing things or behaving properly over and over and over again.
Again, Master thinks the same way. The punishment should address whatever specific "bad" behavior occurred and seek to correct it.

Ultimately I think repeated problems indicate a mismatch in partnership.
Master has said as much to me. He has zero tolerance for "bratty"behavior, intentional defiance, and purposeful breaking of His rules. i know i am owned for life and such behavior wouldn't end O/our relationship but what it WOULD do is embarrass me for acting like that and cause Him to be thoroughly disappointed in my behavior. He will tell you that any issue He has had to deal with me about has been a onetime thing. It's dealt with and it's over. Correction and growth really IS the real purpose of punishment in O/our particular relationship. My response to His punishments has nothing to do with fearing Him and everything to do with respecting and honoring Him...........slave luci

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:14:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply

I think that it just depends on the submissive whether or not punishments are effective. Lets face it, some are attracted to this lifestyle because they do not want responsibility, and that is ok because that is where they are in this life. For others of us punishments are not necessary (especially the ones described in the OP).

I can respect that punishments are not an effective discipline for you, but I do not understand the concept that those requiring punishment do not want or take responsibility for themselves. Why can't it be that different people simply speak different languages and have different motivators?

Unless I misunderstood the above post...?

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:15:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

the physical punishment itself serves a myriad of purposes...it serves as further incentive for not repeating the poor behavior, it serves as a release for my Master in case my actions caused him irritation or anger, it serves as an emotional and mental release for me, helping to ease the guilt somewhat and feel as if my "sins" have been washed away for the time being. it allows me to move forward from that point with a positive "i can do better" focus, as opposed to a negative "i'm a failure, can't do anything right" focus. physical punishment also serves to instill and maintain fear of my Master in me, which we both feel is an important, crucial element of our dynamic.

It may be a difference of semantics, but when I think of punishment, I think of it in terms of a penalty.

I can see what you're saying here, but much of it seems to emphasize the symbolic, emotional effects of punishment which to me could be ritualized with out being connected to specific behaviors. In that case, even an s-type who doesn't misbehave would get punished because the point of the punishment is divorced from particular actions. Which is why I can understand 'play' punishments (and I empahsize the scare quotes because I don't mean to imply that they wouldn't be serious) but not punishments given as a consequence of misbehaving.

I guess part of is because I wonder why an s-type would be misbehaving in the first place.

well because we (submissives) are not perfect. also by "poor behavior" i don't mean to give the impression that i run around being disobedient or disrespectful. but i'm human so i slip up sometimes, make mistakes or just plain poor choices. there are some Dominants who will only punish in the most severe circumstances...willful disobedience or some equally grave transgression. my Master is different, he punishes for the "little things" as well, because it is all part of maintaining an environment and mindset which he feels is appropriate for his slave.

some things i've been punished for: tardiness in getting ready, overcooked food, chores not completed by a specific time, accidentally breaking a dish, making eye contact with someone when it was not proper to do so, inappropriate speech (i actually said "duh" to him during a playful, casual conversation...intending no disrespect, but speaking to him as i would speak to a friend or equal, and certainly not to a Master..eek...learned my lesson well with that one), etc. in each case the punishment has fit the crime, and reinforced a lesson specific to the misbehavior/wrongdoing.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> "Punishment"????

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