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RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/8/2007 2:34:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I'd love to hear her side. They're in bed talking and something she says annoys him so his immediate response is not to explain what he's touchy about but to order her into the corner, and this is supposed to teach her that her mind reading skills are insufficient?

Exactly, it's the difference between treating it as a real life relationship (talking it out) or treating like a role playing game (I'm the Dom, dammit). It's still a relationship whether it's D/s or not and responding to issues with punishments rather than finding out the root of the issue means that your submissive will then be wary of bringing issues to you. It ends up being a viscious cycle that finally ends with the end of the relationship.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Celeste43)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/9/2007 7:22:17 AM

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I agree with DianeB..there are no excuses. I have had this problem before and dealt with it promptly, point towards the door and you will get your answer quick enough.If she walks...too bad...move on

(in reply to RavenMuse)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/9/2007 11:40:36 AM

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I find it highly amusing how much talk there is in our dysfunctional little community about training, trainers, etc and yet the moment things get hard, the moment someone becomes hard to deal with there is so much talk of ending the relationship. To me, THAT is when training begins, teaching someone that saying the hard truths now saves much heartbreak later AND enhances the relationship overall. Taking a woman who is afraid to submit and doing what is necessary to nurture and bring forth that submission, THAT is training. Taking a brat and teaching her to be polite, or a raging bitch and teaching her manners THAT is the measure of the man.

I mean, what does it take to train a puppy to wag its tail? Now taking on a snarling full grown rottweiler who wouldn't mind eating you and training THAT to sit and stay, THAT to me is the measure of a Dominant worth capitalizing the stupid word.

(in reply to Turnbuckle)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/9/2007 3:09:53 PM

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SimplyMichael,
i see what you are saying here and it implys commitment~ However, a submissive is not a dog or a child and is in the relationship by her own freewill and desire to be in a D/s dynamic. At some point, if she continues to rebel, become bratty and childish about her submission, one has to wonder why is she there? Afterall, she is a consenting adult...

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/9/2007 3:58:55 PM

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Greetings Master SimplyMichael,

fairer agrees with this position 100%. When a girl is in the midst of being trained and suddenly doesn't get things exactly her way, that is when the training actually begins. Many issues can arise to make her want to leave at the first sign of difficulty, it is the man who can Master her and bring her back to that state of submission and servitude who will reap the benefit of developing and nurturing the training. A slave or submissive worth having is one who is worth training.

Many times, far more often than she would like to admit, fairer has doubted and questioned her training, her submission, her Mentor and his worth - but all these were brought in line by Him, some in subtle ways and some in true tests of her courage and strength. With her Master, it is the same. she wonders, in her vanity, if He is deserving of such an extraordinary slave. If He has earned that capitalization, and can handle one who will challenge Him on every level, then certainly she will be His.

well wishes,

fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/10/2007 3:30:27 PM

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Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I find it highly amusing how much talk there is in our dysfunctional little community about training, trainers, etc and yet the moment things get hard, the moment someone becomes hard to deal with there is so much talk of ending the relationship. To me, THAT is when training begins, teaching someone that saying the hard truths now saves much heartbreak later AND enhances the relationship overall. Taking a woman who is afraid to submit and doing what is necessary to nurture and bring forth that submission, THAT is training. Taking a brat and teaching her to be polite, or a raging bitch and teaching her manners THAT is the measure of the man.

I mean, what does it take to train a puppy to wag its tail? Now taking on a snarling full grown rottweiler who wouldn't mind eating you and training THAT to sit and stay, THAT to me is the measure of a Dominant worth capitalizing the stupid word.

Growth is hard. Growth is painful. It is far easier to take the easy road and look for the non-difficult and non-painful situations - and yet pine for the unrealized. It's a struggle and a triumph for both trainer and trained - in any situation.

_____________________________

Some of my thoughts on Ownership:

http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/11/2007 6:04:01 AM

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I think most responses that were given here are very valid posibilities. I can only say this from my perspective and it may not be right. I am a Brat. Not the the extent that your woman is, of course. I 'brat' [to make a an adjective a verb] because I am playful and I like seeing how far I can take it before a boy gives into his baser instincts and Dominates me [even if they aren't a Dom.]

It's possible she is just goading you. You say you were talking and she refused an order, yet you did nothing? You should have dragged her ungrateful ass outta bed and thrown her in that corner and told her to stay. A few spanks might be in order too.

If it appears that she doesn't want to submit even after all of that, you need to sit down with her and ask her if she really wants to be a sub. If she says yes, you point to the door and tell her to fix her behavior or she's going out.

_____________________________

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But whips and chains excite me
So tie me up
Or hold me down
And bite me baby, bite me!

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(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/11/2007 8:23:37 PM

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Joined: 4/7/2007
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One of my cubs is absolutely uncooperative at times to the point I sometimes wonder who the Dom really is. But in the end Domination is all about having the ability to step as far back from the short time picture to accommodate the greater need of your submissive. Its all about love.

Time, patience, support, loving guidance ... for the ultimate brat, a night in diapers can work wonders LOL.

Bear

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/4/2007 6:06:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderRoad

This is a bit of a rant and a bit of a cry for help. Please indulge me a little.

*smashes head on wall*

my pleasure :)

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/4/2007 11:09:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: .... Taking a woman who is afraid to submit and doing what is necessary to nurture and bring forth that submission, THAT is training. Taking a brat and teaching her to be polite, or a raging bitch and teaching her manners THAT is the measure of the man.

I mean, what does it take to train a puppy to wag its tail? Now taking on a snarling full grown rottweiler who wouldn't mind eating you and training THAT to sit and stay, THAT to me is the measure of a Dominant worth capitalizing the stupid word.

Yikes. Just got done reading the whole five page thread. Didn't want to stick both my feet in my mouth today, one will be sufficent Im sure. For YEARS now, I have been trying to give voice to the very thing you have addressed so elouquently here. SimplyMichael is of course not the only one to speak the truth as I see it, but his is the post that hit me like a thunderbolt.
I was a bit shocked actually to read some of the "toss her in the fire" type replies. I guess some subs are able to just be completely submissive without any training or help. Well, I can guarantee you that not all are able to. I can want to submit so badly that i will cry and still it is like there is a wall there that I just cant get over. Ive had it happen before. Is it a lack of willingness? or desire? No. It has been said here already. Either i am to afraid or simply don't know how. I've come across both situations. I've spent years changing my words trying to tell people what I need, what I seek. I've called myself firey, bratty, vibrant, saucy.. . I've asked for strong, brilliant, dominant, calm, . You know.. the last thing I remember posting was saying that i wanted a someone who could bring out my submission. I was told by a Dom to take that down, that it wasn't submissive enouph, that I should not need to have it "brought out in me" that it should just be there.
I have no answers here, I just wanted to give voice to other side of this. There is such a thing as wanting it so badly you cant hardly stand it, but needing the kind of help that has been suggested here. I've often said I need a Dom who has the patience to outthink me, not just resort to beating the living daylights out of me. Seriously, I don't think it would work anyway.
octavia

< Message edited by octavia -- 6/4/2007 11:11:23 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/4/2007 11:58:24 PM

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It baffles me that people can be so categorical with so little access to information. Whether it's 'dump her' or 'be a man and train her', there seems to be little acknowledgement that the same behaviors can stem from different sources. Here's a possible scenario for you to mull- perhaps the girl in question is a trauma victim, and her '50/50' responses reflect a deep level of dissociation. If this is the case, her ability to 'control her actions' in the usual sense may be very limited. She's not, at the moment, a good candidate for D/s in the usual sense, but might well become one in the course of healing. Even if you KNEW this to be the case, it would not, in itself, tell you what to do- you could commit to helping her in the difficult process ahead of her, knowing that at least for the time being her ability to submit is limited, or you could say, well, this is more than I bargained for, I don't want to deal with this. Either is a perfectly respectable choice.
Of course, from the limited information at hand, it's just as possible that she's just afraid of being vulnerable. Or that she's testing you. Or that she's inviting a dominant response. And again, knowing any of these things does not tell you what to do, it just tells you what's possible.

(in reply to octavia)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 1:07:38 AM

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I agree with those who think having a conversation about her is the wrong focus. You obviously are not clear how much of this you are willing to put up with, how extreme it has to get, or how long it will have to go on to reach your limit. I'm talking about the limit within which you are willing to have a relationship with her. Inside, good. Outside, bye. She can't choose (or even decline) to observe limits that aren't clearly limits. In a way, she's really all alone except for a talking marshmallow. Sorry.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2007 1:17:06 AM >

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 1:15:17 AM

Totalmaster4you

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After reading the preceeding 5 pages of posts I can see a number of posts that provide specific methodology for creating a better long term relationship. There is no doubt in my mind that your "sub" is trying to communicate something to you. Based only on the incomplete evidence of what you wrote it sounds like she is testing you or maybe trying to push you into some higher level of dominence (of coarse it's entirely possible that she's not feeling well, worried, stressed and just doesn't feel like playing.) Has she formally submited to you and accepted the boundries that you and she talked about? My guess is that you haven't formalized this part of the relationship. The decision you must make concerns risk. You must be willing to risk losing her by becoming the Dominant she says she wants. Telling her to give in or get out would fundamentally change her if she stays and you say you like to her strength. If you haven't formalized your relationship then all your doing is role playing and not living D/s 24/7. If you formalize things, then you can establish the boundries and consequences. Remember that all this is a negotiation until she completely submits and has no limits but what you choose. During this"trainig" period you need to remember that your goal is guide her where you want her to go whether it's by consequences or rewards. Discover what her needs are and show her how they will be met. Remember that things constantly change and you will constantly need to adapt to keep things running smoothly. Early on establishing no stress times for you both to talk openly about what's working and whats not will go a long way to eliminating the unwanted tantrums because she will have an outlet for venting.
All the best
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to CitizenCane)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 7:41:51 AM

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In the final analysis, there is NO such a thing as a dominant male (except to it's male peers, and who really cares what the monkeys are doing amongst themselves, hehehhe). They are ALL a service sub-species.

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to Totalmaster4you)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 4:40:00 PM

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ThunderRoad

I would suggest you ask her two simple questions when she is acting in manner that is completely inappropriate in framework of the relationship you both have established.

Are you commited to having a D/s relationship?

let her answer.... Most likely the answer is "yes" (reword the question to suite your dynamic and the given situation)

Then ask

Why are choosing to behave at this moment that is contrary to your commitment?

then see where it goes... btw... an apology is not good enough... actually it's rather unimportant at this stage. What needs to occur is for her to come to the realizations that she is making choices of behavior that is contrary to her committment. It is also critical to understand why she is making these choices. You are only going to make this happen when she is playing this dance that frustrates you. BTW... once you learn the reason... gain some insight to it... Don't go into a discussion. Save that for when she is in the right mindset in your opinion. Just plant the seeds and harvest later.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 6/5/2007 4:55:24 PM >

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 5:15:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

ThunderRoad

I would suggest you ask her two simple questions when she is acting in manner that is completely inappropriate in framework of the relationship you both have established.

Are you commited to having a D/s relationship?

let her answer.... Most likely the answer is "yes" (reword the question to suite your dynamic and the given situation)

Then ask

Why are choosing to behave at this moment that is contrary to your commitment?

then see where it goes... btw... an apology is not good enough... actually it's rather unimportant at this stage. What needs to occur is for her to come to the realizations that she is making choices of behavior that is contrary to her committment. It is also critical to understand why she is making these choices. You are only going to make this happen when she is playing this dance that frustrates you. BTW... once you learn the reason... gain some insight to it... Don't go into a discussion. Save that for when she is in the right mindset in your opinion. Just plant the seeds and harvest later.

Correct as far as you've gone but you're omitting one salient point. He has to be willing to hear hard truths about why she doesn't feel safe submitting to him, or why his behavior is such that she cannot in good conscience give him control.

I don't hear from him anything about him being less than perfect and that his actions, behaviors, and methods of communication are not models that could not easily be held up for example to the entire world.

Personally I don't believe it. I don't know anyone in a less than perfect relationship who does not contribute to the relationship difficulties. I have never known anyone who was absolutely correct in all details, including accepting their own and their partner's frailties and that includes marriages that have lasted 50 years and survived death, war and other disasters.

He can talk all he wants, and act however he wants, but unless he is willing to listen and own his faults instead of just blaming the other party, there can be no good resolution.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 6:45:08 PM

Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

ThunderRoad

I would suggest you ask her two simple questions when she is acting in manner that is completely inappropriate in framework of the relationship you both have established.

Are you commited to having a D/s relationship?

let her answer.... Most likely the answer is "yes" (reword the question to suite your dynamic and the given situation)

Then ask

Why are choosing to behave at this moment that is contrary to your commitment?

then see where it goes... btw... an apology is not good enough... actually it's rather unimportant at this stage. What needs to occur is for her to come to the realizations that she is making choices of behavior that is contrary to her committment. It is also critical to understand why she is making these choices. You are only going to make this happen when she is playing this dance that frustrates you. BTW... once you learn the reason... gain some insight to it... Don't go into a discussion. Save that for when she is in the right mindset in your opinion. Just plant the seeds and harvest later.

Correct as far as you've gone but you're omitting one salient point. He has to be willing to hear hard truths about why she doesn't feel safe submitting to him, or why his behavior is such that she cannot in good conscience give him control.

I don't hear from him anything about him being less than perfect and that his actions, behaviors, and methods of communication are not models that could not easily be held up for example to the entire world.

Personally I don't believe it. I don't know anyone in a less than perfect relationship who does not contribute to the relationship difficulties. I have never known anyone who was absolutely correct in all details, including accepting their own and their partner's frailties and that includes marriages that have lasted 50 years and survived death, war and other disasters.

He can talk all he wants, and act however he wants, but unless he is willing to listen and own his faults instead of just blaming the other party, there can be no good resolution.

She should dump the squid. No woman is committed to put up with any males nonsense. I'm surprised she didn't have her stuff moved out by the next evening leaving him to his own crap.

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to Celeste43)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 7:40:12 PM

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Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nogimmicks

Remember, despite everything you read about punishments and spankings and all the rest of it, most "subs" will find being ignored to be the absolute worst thing that the man they love can do to them.

Very very very true. My D and I talked about this a little, though he was teasing me... jokingly, he asked "How does someone punish a girl who loves pain?"
My response, "If you really want to punish me, do nothing at all... just ignore me... it would drive me insane"
And it would indeed. However, I doubt there is too much I could/would do to warrent such a punishment, and thank the Goddess for that!

_____________________________

No-one respects the flame quite like the fool who's badly burned-- Pete Townshend

(in reply to Nogimmicks)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/5/2007 8:28:53 PM

MzMia

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All I can say if a submissive is really childish, bratty, and selfish,
what kind of submissive are they?
Are we in Kansas yet toto?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Indemnis)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 6/6/2007 1:59:06 AM

Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I agree with those who think having a conversation about her is the wrong focus. You obviously are not clear how much of this you are willing to put up with, how extreme it has to get, or how long it will have to go on to reach your limit. I'm talking about the limit within which you are willing to have a relationship with her. Inside, good. Outside, bye. She can't choose (or even decline) to observe limits that aren't clearly limits. In a way, she's really all alone except for a talking marshmallow. Sorry.

K.

eXactly, she's not the problem, her male is.

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to Kirata)

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