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Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:06:39 PM

ProtagonistLily

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So I'm perusing the threads and someone actually said "I'm not a slave, I'm a bratty sub."

Why is that ok? In know we have the Great Slave v. Sub wars, but I gotta say, I find that completely inconsistant with everything I know about this lifestyle and D/s relationships in general.

Perhaps, it's that people don't have the vocabulary to indicate exactly what they are. From my perspective, it's perfectly fine to be a bratty bottom (if you can find someone or someones who will put up with that behavior) and not only get away with it, but play it for all it's worth. There's nothing wrong with being someone who wants to swim in the SM pool; but when you start mixing your D/s and your SM and come out with 'bratty subs' and the like, I start to throw up a little.

I am by no means suggesting that as His submissive, I'm some kind of wall flower, because I wasn't before Him and I haven't magically become that since Him. But make no mistake, there is a huge differance between having a personality and being a 'brat'. I have never liked 'bratty submissives', especially the ones who make it a point to be a brat for the attention value (oh come now, you know exactly what I'm talking about).

While you can be what ever you want, for those of us who actually have taken BDSM from the fantasy 'what if' stage of exisiting solely on message boards to the reality phase of actually practicing in some variant of what's known as BDSM, the non-dominant women who think it's fun to brat it up are, in my opinion, not only a pain in the ass, but particularly disrespectful of the rest of us who are putting forth an effort to behave.

So again, I ask the question: Why is this ok?

Kassie

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:10:33 PM

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I used to spend a lot of time on IRC and there were indeed "bratty subs" and even IRC channels that specifically encouraged that type of behavior.

In real life, being "bratty" is sometimes fun for roleplay, and roleplay only. I'm not sure in what context you've heard someone say they are a bratty sub, though. Could you elaborate a bit more, please?

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:13:05 PM

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Maybe they are just giving more excuses to get beat and punished?

(in reply to wytchywoman)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:14:29 PM

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quote:

I have never liked 'bratty submissives', especially the ones who make it a point to be a brat for the attention value (oh come now, you know exactly what I'm talking about).

/clears throat
I ummm, resemble that remark

/looks away and whistles

Seriously though, I am not sure in what context you are referring to either. Maybe the person, like you said, just got her vocabulary mixed up.

/shrug

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:15:25 PM

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It's ok for the same reason that your relationship is ok: because that's the way the people involved want it.

Me, I'm a person, not a lifestyle. I like men who can defend themselves from saucy women, and don't need the help of slaves.

Is living my life the way I want it disrespectful to you? Tough noogies, honey.

_____________________________

"Cheeky bitch"

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:18:13 PM

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First off, you're on thin ice for using the s word as a way to irk me enough to read the post and respond.

Secondly, a lot of subs/slaves have a HARD time reconciling submission. They want to HOLD ONTO their strength and sense of independence as much as they can. Since they don't know how to do this gracefully, they act out in bratty ways. Also, many doms allow the brattiness, even encourage it, because it helps the sub keep a sense of stability and self-control.

I am not sure why so many people think you can't be witty and amusing and have fun and show personality unless you're being a brat. The most common thing I hear from brats suggests that they feel that if they aren't bratty, then they will be repressed, bland, and boring. So perhaps they are acting out as a way to fight against being ordinary.

There may also be a taste of the "force me" in brats. They are oh so proud and oh so strong until the ONE comes to them and somehow transforms them into a meek and obedient girl- it is only HIS true power and honor which can tame the wild beast. It's a form of "do me" and definitely another type that can't reconcile being submissive AND being a full person.

Why adults think it's ok to act like a brat in public I have no idea. Just because it's kinky doesn't mean it's ok to be rude.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:22:06 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

It's ok for the same reason that your relationship is ok: because that's the way the people involved want it.

Me, I'm a person, not a lifestyle. I like men who can defend themselves from saucy women, and don't need the help of slaves.

Is living my life the way I want it disrespectful to you? Tough noogies, honey.

Yeah, well, honey, let me tell you something. And any number of people who have met me in real life can attest to this: They don't come much saucier than me. And I by no means said there was anything wrong with a saucy sub. However, I question someone who deems themselves a 'bratty sub' and regardless of your particular bend, I will continue to do so, with or without your flippant, self centered commentary.

But that wasn't my point.

My point was, why is it ok to be a self labled brat? And to go even further, I'm really interested in, as Dr. Phil asks, "how that's workin for ya..."

And yes dear, you can be a person and not a lifestyle, but in the end, how you act in the real scene (because no one really remembers anyone after they drift from these boards. Taking up the bandwidth is not "living", lifestyle or not) is what counts.

So stick that in your noogie and think on it...

K

< Message edited by ProtagonistLily -- 4/4/2006 1:43:52 PM >

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:24:48 PM

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quote:

So stick that in you noogie and think on it...

Hot dayummmmmmm

and I thought I was a bitch

wooooooot, you go girl

/claps hands together loudly

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:30:32 PM

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I would treat an adult the same way as my kids for acting like brats in public... I would walk away and ignore them. Actually not true.. embarrass me.... and you'll learn what embarrassement really feels like. I've never associate being a brat with being submissive. I seen times were as LA said, "Force me" brat like ways. To me that if I was a Dom/me... I would have to just walk away.

We all have the little kids in us that makes us be in playful moods... but there's a difference in being playful and being a brat.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:32:02 PM

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I think that I fall into that category. I like being a bratty subbie. I am not a slave in any way. I like to be "forced" to do things by physical acts, I do submit to them only in so far as there is a perceived threat that something bad will happen if I don't. I truly enjoy the bondage aspect of play because I am physically unable to fight my way out. I like to say "no" so that the physical force becomes greater. I feel, for me, that forced submission is where I get the most satisfaction.

I think that a plain sub is somewhere between a brat-sub and a slave..... Maybe....

I am not a slave. I do not do as he asks. I do not voluntarily serve him in any way. I do not call him "Him" and I do not refer to myself as "i". I have my safe word. I have only said it once when the pain got to be too much. He respected it and backed off. It is my only defense from him.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:32:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

So stick that in you noogie and think on it...

Hot dayummmmmmm

and I thought I was a bitch

wooooooot, you go girl

/claps hands together loudly

Dayummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Grabs a cup of coffee and plops down on couch... this could be interresting...

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:34:57 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

First off, you're on thin ice for using the s word as a way to irk me enough to read the post and respond.

I actually took this quote verbatim from a post down the thread I was reading. I can't remember which one though and I do not use that form of the 's' word in serious conversation. I bristle when I hear it myself.

quote:

Secondly, a lot of subs/slaves have a HARD time reconciling submission. They want to HOLD ONTO their strength and sense of independence as much as they can. Since they don't know how to do this gracefully, they act out in bratty ways. Also, many doms allow the brattiness, even encourage it, because it helps the sub keep a sense of stability and self-control.

Um, that's all well and good and sorta "I'm O.K., Your O.K." but it's not particulary submissive. And I know that there's all kinds. I find it particularly interesting that this question has gotten so many hanckles up.

I really can't imagine respecting a Dom who let a 'submissive' act like this in order for her to be more comfortable and particularly to be in control. Sounds like topping from the bottom to me ~shrugs~

quote:

I am not sure why so many people think you can't be witty and amusing and have fun and show personality unless you're being a brat. The most common thing I hear from brats suggests that they feel that if they aren't bratty, then they will be repressed, bland, and boring. So perhaps they are acting out as a way to fight against being ordinary.

This wasn't about whitty or funny or smart or assertive or brainy or loud. This was specifically about bratty and about self labling with bratty. If someone feels if they aren't bratty they will be repressed, then perhaps they have some internal work to do or they are struggling around here for a reason ~shrugs~

quote:

There may also be a taste of the "force me" in brats.

And then again, there may not be.

quote:

They are oh so proud and oh so strong until the ONE comes to them and somehow transforms them into a meek and obedient girl- it is only HIS true power and honor which can tame the wild beast. It's a form of "do me" and definitely another type that can't reconcile being submissive AND being a full person.

We could posit and theorize til the cows come home, but bottom line is that when the rubber hits the road, submission isn't about being the one in control or the one with the power. Unless of course I missed something...

quote:

Why adults think it's ok to act like a brat in public I have no idea. Just because it's kinky doesn't mean it's ok to be rude.

Totally agree with you there.

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:37:09 PM

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I think I need to clarify one thing... I am only bratty when I am actively being a subbie. I am not 24/7. I am a woman, mother and wife before I am anything else.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:40:23 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

I think that I fall into that category. I like being a bratty subbie. I am not a slave in any way. I like to be "forced" to do things by physical acts, I do submit to them only in so far as there is a perceived threat that something bad will happen if I don't. I truly enjoy the bondage aspect of play because I am physically unable to fight my way out. I like to say "no" so that the physical force becomes greater. I feel, for me, that forced submission is where I get the most satisfaction.

I think that a plain sub is somewhere between a brat-sub and a slave..... Maybe....

I am not a slave. I do not do as he asks. I do not voluntarily serve him in any way. I do not call him "Him" and I do not refer to myself as "i". I have my safe word. I have only said it once when the pain got to be too much. He respected it and backed off. It is my only defense from him.

Then why do you self identify as a 'sub' at all? You appear to be a female person who enjoys SM play, and does not wish to give up control on an ongoing basis, or serve your partner in any way.

~drum roll please~ There's nothing wrong with this. Nothing in the least.

Except that maybe you don't realize that while you say exactly what your conditions are and under which you will submit, from where I sit, this is not submission at all. This is bottoming. And I know lots of bottoms and they are absolutely fine people. But they ain't submissives and they sure as hell aren't slaves.

And while I may identify as a submissive, I have been a plain old garden variety pain slut bottom in my time too. The two are not mutually exclusive in my mind; however, they are certainly not the same.

You can exist quite nicely in BDSM and just be a bottom and be a bratty one too ~wink~

K

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Mikesbeth)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:43:36 PM

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Part of the problem is the labels we use. We are a community united by a vocabularly that we all define differently. The Tower of Babel has nothing on us. Put up a post asking everyone to define sub, slave, dominant, brat. I doubt you will get any 2 replies remotely the same. And guess what? Words that everyone defines differently have no meaning.

There are also no rules. There are no certification boards. The titles people use are self assigned, and just ignore that man behind the curtain. And no matter what adjectives we apply to ourselves, we are still first of all, people. Man people, and woman people. Gay people and straight people. With all that come with it. And in the end, those things define us a hell of a lot more than which end of the whip we prefer. Doesn't it just come down to finding someone that makes you happy, and vice versa? And when you do, the labels really matter? Does whether other people aprove of your happiness really matter? I was told once by a "real dom" that I wasn't one because I *gasp* like to eat pussy. "REAL doms don't eat pussy. That's a submissive act." Still makes me smile.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:46:12 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

So I'm perusing the threads and someone actually said "I'm not a slave, I'm a bratty sub."

Perhaps, it's that people don't have the vocabulary to indicate exactly what they are. From my perspective, it's perfectly fine to be a bratty bottom (if you can find someone or someones who will put up with that behavior) and not only get away with it, but play it for all it's worth. There's nothing wrong with being someone who wants to swim in the SM pool; but when you start mixing your D/s and your SM and come out with 'bratty subs' and the like, I start to throw up a little.

I am by no means suggesting that as His submissive, I'm some kind of wall flower, because I wasn't before Him and I haven't magically become that since Him. But make no mistake, there is a huge differance between having a personality and being a 'brat'. I have never liked 'bratty submissives', especially the ones who make it a point to be a brat for the attention value (oh come now, you know exactly what I'm talking about).

While you can be what ever you want, for those of us who actually have taken BDSM from the fantasy 'what if' stage of exisiting solely on message boards to the reality phase of actually practicing in some variant of what's known as BDSM, the non-dominant women who think it's fun to brat it up are, in my opinion, not only a pain in the ass, but particularly disrespectful of the rest of us who are putting forth an effort to behave.

So again, I ask the question: Why is this ok?

Kassie

Bold emphasis Mine.

I see it in the boys too, Lily. And I think you really nailed it with the phrase about mixing SM with D/s. Mayhap that is one of the reasons I find it so hard to find the boy for Me.
It is all in the presentation. And some people do not seem to know where to draw the line. I don't know if it is a matter of immaturity or just an ongoing personality trait. But I will tell you that I will not spend a whole lot of time trying to find out, and/or trying to fix the problem. There will be someone else who wants to spend their energy on that sort of challenge.

quote:

Original: Lucky Albatross
I am not sure why so many people think you can't be witty and amusing and have fun and show personality unless you're being a brat. The most common thing I hear from brats suggests that they feel that if they aren't bratty, then they will be repressed, bland, and boring. So perhaps they are acting out as a way to fight against being ordinary.

Since I don't consider being submissive as "ordinary" in any way shape or form, that just doesn't hold water for Me. And as long as brattiness is encouraged or just tolerated, they will never be forced to find a more constructive way to have a personality without being "bratty".
I don't find it cute or endearing. I'm not interested in a brat. If a boy (or girl) is not sure s/he wants to submit, and hasn't figured out what that entails, then I can't be bothered.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:49:09 PM

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I have to say I can't stand the concept of submissive girls who call themselves "brats" and pride themselves in being obnoxious and hard to deal with.
Same goes for people who say "I'm submissive but I won't submit unless you know exactly how to make it happen... I don't even really like submitting but I want to know if there's anyone who can make me do it. I'm a total out of control brat and I'm not going to make it easy!"
Drives me up the frickin' wall! That's not submissive, so call yourself what you are - a boring vanilla with personality issues.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:55:31 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

I was told once by a "real dom" that I wasn't one because I *gasp* like to eat pussy. "REAL doms don't eat pussy. That's a submissive act." Still makes me smile.

Well, I'd love to hear what "Real" subs don't do so I can laugh right along side with you.

People who want to tell you what "Real" Doms and Subs do are just too insecure to enjoy themselves.

But that wasn't my point. While I appreciate what you are saying, you are doing the "Everyone's Beautiful" dance around my point. And that's ok. But that doesn't mean while you are being a man who enjoys what ever it is he enjoys in the name of kink and I'm a woman who is doing what she enjoys in the name of kink, there are some assholes kicking around here doing things that aren't right. And I'm sure that they are right for themselves, but while you can posit all you want that what ever we are doing and what ever we call it is just dandy, all societies and cultures, (and regardless of what you want to say, we are a cultural subset of the aggregate) have traditions, rituals, governing laws and mores. To suggest that we have none of those would not only be wrong, but completely misleading.

We have traditions. They are quickly being lost at an unhearalded rate because what ever anyone does is just fine anymore, but to suggest that we don't have some basic rules of order and traditions upon which they have been born on, is just wrong.

Kassie

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to SirPrize)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:56:49 PM

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You might be right. Maybe "bottom" does fit better at times for me. Somehow, though, it doesn't feel right most of the time. It's the submission part that gets me. I love bottoming and taking a beating without complaint and being fully complicit but that's not usually how things work out. Maybe they start that way. It's the gameplay and how far he wants to take it, not how far I think I can go. In the limited (very limited) time spent with other people who I would think of as D/s or T/b, it seems as though bottoms are more active participants by perceived choice whereas subs are more unwilling and need pushing toward the Dom's desires...

Hard to define... I can only say how I feel about me.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 1:58:04 PM

ProtagonistLily

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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Right on Dusty! Right on!

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

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