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RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/14/2012 6:03:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
American sources, of course. Not like any of those might have even the teensiest bit of a bias against the former soviet union leading them to spin their information a bit...

Stop reading Al Guardian dear boy, better pick up the Daily Mail instead: some were Russian, UN (a senior official), an Afghani source, and last time I looked the BBC wasn't American either...

So far you have failed to show any difinitive source for population figures in afghanistan for the years 1979-1988...while at the same time parroting the asinine mantra of two million dead afghanis. You have failed to show how many afghanis lived in afghanistan before the russians came nor have you shown how many were left when the russians went home.
Please get back to me when you have something more than your opinion for validation.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/14/2012 7:15:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
American sources, of course. Not like any of those might have even the teensiest bit of a bias against the former soviet union leading them to spin their information a bit...

Stop reading Al Guardian dear boy, better pick up the Daily Mail instead: some were Russian, UN (a senior official), an Afghani source, and last time I looked the BBC wasn't American either...

So far you have failed to show any difinitive source for population figures in afghanistan for the years 1979-1988...while at the same time parroting the asinine mantra of two million dead afghanis. You have failed to show how many afghanis lived in afghanistan before the russians came nor have you shown how many were left when the russians went home.
Please get back to me when you have something more than your opinion for validation.

Yet another fucking pathetic response from an "individual" (I use the word very loosely indeed) who refuses to believe anything that doesn't suit his hate-everything-American-love-their-enemies-no-matter-what stance. Since when is it an "asinine mantra" to say up to two million died in Afghanistan? Those that replied to me were not familiar with the figure.

FIRSTLY I DID NOT say two million were dead in Afghanistan - I stated it was one to two million dead as the VAST MAJORITY of sources I have read assert. I provided one source that listed numerous sources, most of which are well regarded, that stated varying figures some up to two million up til 1988. You SELECTIVELY CHOSE to BELIEVE the LA Times figure of 670,000 despite it being the lowest by considerable margin - WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS? Are your OPINIONS deciding what material you deem acceptable?

I referenced numerous other well regarded sources, which you again CHOSE to disbelieve. Now I am expected by a %&$£ to provide the figures for those living in Afghanstan before and after as well, even though those were not asked for. YOU asserted the figures did not stand up in a previous post so in order to contradict my stance YOU must provide several reputable likewise easily accessible ONLINE sources to prove otherwise. Make some fucking effort to verify your OPINIONS instead of merely sitting in judgement of others.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/14/2012 7:53:27 PM >

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"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 5:08:37 AM

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You can cite examples of American interventions in the middle east that haven't worked out disastrously in the long run, can you?
It isn't a matter of hating America (or in your own case, making excuses for them because they support Israel), it's a matter of feeling that they don't have a clue what they're doing in that part of the world since the end of the second world war.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 5:39:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
You can cite examples of American interventions in the middle east that haven't worked out disastrously in the long run, can you?
It isn't a matter of hating America (or in your own case, making excuses for them because they support Israel), it's a matter of feeling that they don't have a clue what they're doing in that part of the world since the end of the second world war.

Bullshit, I suggest you stop projecting your tiresome Indie/Guardian drivel on those you disagree with, and actually engage with what others say with some integrity. I already made the point that I didn't support American or Western interventionism. I strongly disagreed with it in the 90's with Kosovo etc. I don't fucking make excuses for them because they support another country. I know what so many in Europe think. So many tiresome individuals like you think all the wrongs of the world fucking world eminated out of the US, Americans are thick etc. Hence your startling refusal to consider that the USSR, which put some 30 million of its own to the sword, couldn't kill up to two million in Afghanistan. Its an old leftist diatribe that should have been slung out with far-right politics decades ago, because these fucks supported and still support the most genocidal regimes on the planet. Leftists are trying to get a statue erected at public expense in Galway of Che Guevara, poster boy of the left to this very day. This is a man who acknowledged that he actually wanted a nuclear war with the US during the Bay of Pigs, an event he actually helped instigate, and thought consigning the lives of many millions to a firey end a worthy sacrifice to put an end to "imperialism". Thus is it any wonder monsters like Pol Pot emerged, which other leftist luminaries like Chomsky bent over backward to defend?

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 5:56:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Bullshit, I suggest you stop projecting your tiresome Indie/Guardian drivel on those you disagree with, and actually engage with what others say with some integrity. I already made the point that I didn't support American or Western interventionism. I strongly disagreed with it in the 90's with Kosovo etc. I don't fucking make excuses for them because they support another country. I know what so many in Europe think. So many tiresome individuals like you think all the wrongs of the world fucking world eminated out of the US, Americans are thick etc. Hence your startling refusal to consider that the USSR, which put some 30 million of its own to the sword, couldn't kill up to two million in Afghanistan. Its an old leftist diatribe that should have been slung out with far-right politics decades ago, because these fucks supported and still support the most genocidal regimes on the planet. Leftists are trying to get a statue erected at public expense in Galway of Che Guevara, poster boy of the left to this very day. This is a man who acknowledged that he actually wanted a nuclear war with the US during the Bay of Pigs, an event he actually helped instigate, and thought consigning the lives of many millions to a firey end a worthy sacrifice to put an end to "imperialism". Thus is it any wonder monsters like Pol Pot emerged, which other leftist luminaries like Chomsky bent over backward to defend?

I'm the one who's projecting and showing a lack of integrity here. Right.

I'm not denying that the soviets killed a lot of Afghans. I'm just wondering why you feel it was acceptable to replace a democratically elected in Iran with a Shah who spent a quarter of a century killing off all rival factions until the only people left in opposition were the bunch of wingnut wannabe theocrats who staged a revolution and dragged the country back into the fourteenth century back in '79. No amount of whining that the soviets did this, that or t'other alters the fact that Iran would now be in much better better shape if the CIA hadn't deposed Mossadeq.
If you're going to complain about Soviet expansionism and lefty fellow travellers making excuses, maybe you should try taking the moral high ground rather than just pleading a double standard that it's okay for governments you approve of to do that shit because the bad guys would have done it if they hadn't.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 6:08:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Bullshit, I suggest you stop projecting your tiresome Indie/Guardian drivel on those you disagree with, and actually engage with what others say with some integrity. I already made the point that I didn't support American or Western interventionism. I strongly disagreed with it in the 90's with Kosovo etc. I don't fucking make excuses for them because they support another country. I know what so many in Europe think. So many tiresome individuals like you think all the wrongs of the world fucking world eminated out of the US, Americans are thick etc. Hence your startling refusal to consider that the USSR, which put some 30 million of its own to the sword, couldn't kill up to two million in Afghanistan. Its an old leftist diatribe that should have been slung out with far-right politics decades ago, because these fucks supported and still support the most genocidal regimes on the planet. Leftists are trying to get a statue erected at public expense in Galway of Che Guevara, poster boy of the left to this very day. This is a man who acknowledged that he actually wanted a nuclear war with the US during the Bay of Pigs, an event he actually helped instigate, and thought consigning the lives of many millions to a firey end a worthy sacrifice to put an end to "imperialism". Thus is it any wonder monsters like Pol Pot emerged, which other leftist luminaries like Chomsky bent over backward to defend?

I'm the one who's projecting and showing a lack of integrity here. Right.

Dude you have been that way since I have had the pleasure of communicating with you on these forums.

quote:

I'm not denying that the soviets killed a lot of Afghans.

You did actually although you insert "a lot" here which obfuscates that debate. It is widely accepted they killed one to two million which you poured doubt on because they were "American" sources, aww bless...

quote:

I'm just wondering why you feel it was acceptable to replace a democratically elected in Iran with a Shah who spent a quarter of a century killing off all rival factions until the only people left in opposition were the bunch of wingnut wannabe theocrats who staged a revolution and dragged the country back into the fourteenth century back in '79. No amount of whining that the soviets did this, that or t'other alters the fact that Iran would now be in much better better shape if the CIA hadn't deposed Mossadeq.

I didn't say it was acceptable but I pointed out that the matter was far from the black and white issue you leftist lot make it out to be. Furthermore it can be argued that t wasn't even a coup because the Shah had a right to dismiss the PM under certain conditions. I made these fucking points to you days ago, and here I am making them again!

It is also total bollox to suggest the intervention in '53 directly led to the aftermath of 1979. The Islamists actually wanted Mossadeq out in 1953 as well because they were alarmed at his values. However, the Shah was far too liberal and supported womens rights, removal of the veil etc. - these things led to a great deal of anger against him. Furthermore much of the rebellion in 1978/9 was not from religious loonies but the liberal/left which was sidelined so you cannot blame 1953 for the theocratic state that emerged subsequently.

quote:

If you're going to complain about Soviet expansionism and lefty fellow travellers making excuses, maybe you should try taking the moral high ground rather than just pleading a double standard that it's okay for governments you approve of to do that shit because the bad guys would have done it if they hadn't.

I didn't complain about USSR expansionism. I made the point that the intervention in Iran should be seen in a cold-war context by elaborating on the reality of Soviet expansionism.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 6:10:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
I didn't complain about USSR expansionism. I made the point that the intervention in Iran should be seen in a cold-war context by elaborating on the reality of Soviet expansionism.

As I said: an excuse.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 6:12:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
I didn't complain about USSR expansionism. I made the point that the intervention in Iran should be seen in a cold-war context by elaborating on the reality of Soviet expansionism.

As I said: an excuse.

So pointing out the reality (context) of the day, where two superpowers were locked into a bitter dispute, with one being expansionistic to which the other was reacting, is an excuse? I must remember not to debate such issues with you again.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/15/2012 6:14:42 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 6:14:58 AM

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Claiming that one country intervening in another's internal politics because another country they don't like might possibly do so is definitely an excuse rather than a justification with any substance to it, yes.

As for Afghanistan, there's a lot of debate about how many Afghans were killed, and by whom. I'm not the only one who's pointed that out.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 6:29:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Claiming that one country intervening in another's internal politics because another country they don't like might possibly do so is definitely an excuse rather than a justification with any substance to it, yes.

Firstly you have repeatedly ignored that the UK had been intensely agitating for the intervention. Secondly, the Shah may have had the legal right to give Mossadeq the boot so it may not have been a coup.

Thirdly, and this is a moral debate requiring some effort at thought, it is not as problematic if one country is trying to prevent the expansion of another into said territory rather than just meddling for their own gain. If the US had done the latter than I would be giving out about them as well. My only point was that there were strong portents Iran was going the way of Azerbaijan or Eastern Europe. At the time people believed a vast military and nuclear war was on the way between the nations. Thus there was some justification in the US trying to stop a big gain to its enemies. That is why I stated it should be seen in the context of the cold war rather than the unilateral expansionism so many make it out to be.

quote:

As for Afghanistan, there's a lot of debate about how many Afghans were killed, and by whom. I'm not the only one who's pointed that out.

Actually there isn't a lot of debate about how many were killed in Afghanistan but again here you are minimising the act by choosing (just like that other "entity" who even blames the US for starting the World Wars) to believe lesser figures without foundation - we're back to the sad old the-US-are-ebil-ebil-ebil posturing.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/15/2012 6:35:46 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/15/2012 7:46:29 AM

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Actually no: we're back to US-are-inflating-the-figures-to-make-the-commies-look-worse-ebil-ebil-ebil-than-them posturing.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 4:10:41 AM

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I can find several different numbers. That's the the point.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Deleted User)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 5:22:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Actually no: we're back to US-are-inflating-the-figures-to-make-the-commies-look-worse-ebil-ebil-ebil-than-them posturing.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I can find several different numbers. That's the the point.

Nay sir. The point as I have repeatedly stated is that you choose not to believe the oft stated one million plus death toll figure, seeing it instead as an American conspiracy a la your pal R0. You bitched about the American sources I provided (in fact I provided non-American ones too) but ironically enough the only source to state it was less than one million was the LA Times! It is more than a little amusing seeing as the USSR-Afghani war caused the largest refugee crisis at the time with at least five million (some estimate up to ten million) fleeing into Pakistan and Iran, and a further third of the populace displaced long term within Afghanistan. Egad sir, t'was a mere jolly for the natives, what what what.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/16/2012 5:39:30 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 6:20:15 AM

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The figures that have been cited over the last thirty years range between 600,000 and over two million. You seem more taken with the two million figure yourself, so complaining about somebody else having an ideological bias in picking a number seems at best a little disingenuous.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 9:30:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
The figures that have been cited over the last thirty years range between 600,000 and over two million. You seem more taken with the two million figure yourself, so complaining about somebody else having an ideological bias in picking a number seems at best a little disingenuous.

Firstly it isn't "over the last thirty years" but actually since the near end of the cold war which somewhat weakens your ebil-really-ebil-USA-misleading-us-about-commies stance.

Secondly you and TX have repeatedly strawmanned what I stated about the figures. I frequently said between one and two million, the figure most stated is over one million from a variety of sources.

Thirdly the figure isn't 600,000 but 670,000 and comes from only a very small number of sources. The fact you choose to believe the latter over the figures from a larger number of sources (including averaged out estimates), whilst single-handedly inventing a US anti-commie conspiracy, speaks of only one thing on your part: "bias".

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/16/2012 10:01:36 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 12:46:40 PM

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Obviously. If I didn't have an anti american bias, I'd have no problem with them deposing a democratically elected leader in Iran in order to put an autocrat back in power.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 2:22:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Obviously. If I didn't have an anti american bias, I'd have no problem with them deposing a democratically elected leader in Iran in order to put an autocrat back in power.

...and if you didn't have an anti-American bias you wouldn't ignore the fact that (a) it wasn't necessarily a coup since the Shah was entitled under some circumstances to dismiss the PM, (b) the portents of the USSR involving themselves in Iran, and (c) the fact that the British were agitating for a long time for the Americans to do their dirty work for them...

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 7:08:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
American sources, of course. Not like any of those might have even the teensiest bit of a bias against the former soviet union leading them to spin their information a bit...

Stop reading Al Guardian dear boy, better pick up the Daily Mail instead: some were Russian, UN (a senior official), an Afghani source, and last time I looked the BBC wasn't American either...

So far you have failed to show any difinitive source for population figures in afghanistan for the years 1979-1988...while at the same time parroting the asinine mantra of two million dead afghanis. You have failed to show how many afghanis lived in afghanistan before the russians came nor have you shown how many were left when the russians went home.
Please get back to me when you have something more than your opinion for validation.

Yet another fucking pathetic response from an "individual" (I use the word very loosely indeed) who refuses to believe anything that doesn't suit his hate-everything-American-love-their-enemies-no-matter-what stance. Since when is it an "asinine mantra" to say up to two million died in Afghanistan? Those that replied to me were not familiar with the figure.

FIRSTLY I DID NOT say two million were dead in Afghanistan - I stated it was one to two million dead as the VAST MAJORITY of sources I have read assert. I provided one source that listed numerous sources, most of which are well regarded, that stated varying figures some up to two million up til 1988. You SELECTIVELY CHOSE to BELIEVE the LA Times figure of 670,000 despite it being the lowest by considerable margin - WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS? Are your OPINIONS deciding what material you deem acceptable?

I referenced numerous other well regarded sources, which you again CHOSE to disbelieve. Now I am expected by a %&$£ to provide the figures for those living in Afghanstan before and after as well, even though those were not asked for. YOU asserted the figures did not stand up in a previous post so in order to contradict my stance YOU must provide several reputable likewise easily accessible ONLINE sources to prove otherwise. Make some fucking effort to verify your OPINIONS instead of merely sitting in judgement of others.

So far you have failed to show any difinitive source for population figures in afghanistan for the years 1979-1988...while at the same time parroting the asinine mantra of two million dead afghanis. You have failed to show how many afghanis lived in afghanistan before the russians came nor have you shown how many were left when the russians went home.
Please get back to me when you have something more than your opinion for validation.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 7:13:59 PM

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quote:

So pointing out the reality (context) of the day, where two superpowers were locked into a bitter dispute, with one being expansionistic to which the other was reacting, is an excuse? I must remember not to debate such issues with you again.

Which one was expansionist? Where did they expand to?

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Oh what the fucking fuck??? - 4/16/2012 7:34:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So pointing out the reality (context) of the day, where two superpowers were locked into a bitter dispute, with one being expansionistic to which the other was reacting, is an excuse? I must remember not to debate such issues with you again.

Which one was expansionist? Where did they expand to?

This isn't a question and answer session - do your own research - in fact why bother with research since you evidently know the answer to everything.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/16/2012 8:21:18 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to thompsonx)

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