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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:09:59 AM

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I'm still not seeing how you equate respect with submission in all cases, or doing something for another in all cases as submission? To you, if a master does something nice for their slave just to be nice, are they in submission in some small way to the slave?

Do you consider "mutual respect" to be the same as "mutual submission"?

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:16:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm still not seeing how you equate respect with submission in all cases, or doing something for another in all cases as submission? To you, if a master does something nice for their slave just to be nice, are they in submission in some small way to the slave?

If he does something nice for her, going out of his way, is he not serving her? It may be minor, and he may still be mostly dominant in the relationship. He may enjoy the service- as the submissive hopefully enjoys serving him quite often. Yet, in the end, it's still submission, isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Do you consider "mutual respect" to be the same as "mutual submission"?

Yup.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:18:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
If he does something nice for her, going out of his way, is he not serving her? It may be minor, and he may still be mostly dominant in the relationship. He may enjoy the service- as the submissive hopefully enjoys serving him quite often. Yet, in the end, it's still submission, isn't it?

Does this mean you also equate service with submission?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Do you consider "mutual respect" to be the same as "mutual submission"?

Yup.

That clarifies things a lot.

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(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:21:26 AM

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Greetings MadRabbit

Your examples, while useful for those who are unable to care for themselves in such situations, do not apply to all relationships. I find it confusing why life and death situations must be used as examples. Such things never even entered into the discussions of our relationship simply because I knew the person that I was becoming involved with.

.

With all that said, I would like to state something that has been stated by myself and by Master before. I have one standing rule in our relationship. Absolute obedience.

Included in what Master considers this to be is a certain statement that says ‘at any time that I feel my life to be in danger, I am to do everything in my power to survive”

My father before me, the government, and Master have all seen to it that I am capable of achieving this J

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:22:30 AM

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Greetings CuriousLord

thank you for your clarifications to the statements that you made.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:24:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Your examples, while useful for those who are unable to care for themselves in such situations, do not apply to all relationships. I find it confusing why life and death situations must be used as examples.

Because things must be carried to their logical conclusion. It's part of the process of intellectual debate.

quote:

Such things never even entered into the discussions of our relationship simply because I knew the person that I was becoming involved with.

Which always brings up the question of whether a slave is simply like everyone else who chooses their limits and restrictions, but simply finds the perfect fit and doesn't need to express them actively?

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:25:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
If he does something nice for her, going out of his way, is he not serving her? It may be minor, and he may still be mostly dominant in the relationship. He may enjoy the service- as the submissive hopefully enjoys serving him quite often. Yet, in the end, it's still submission, isn't it?

Does this mean you also equate service with submission?

It may mean I might. I make few equations- I know very little. The rest is derivative of universal truths and logic.

Still, I would say that uncontracted service would be inspired by submission. "Service = submission" sounds like a generalization.. easier to use, but not necessarily always true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Do you consider "mutual respect" to be the same as "mutual submission"?

Yup.

That clarifies things a lot.

Good deal. What did it help clarify that I hadn't made clear before hand? Not to pry, just curious which part of my arguement hadn't made my views clear before so that I may argue more effectively in the future.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:26:57 AM

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quote:

Which always brings up the question of whether a slave is simply like everyone else who chooses their limits and restrictions, but simply finds the perfect fit and doesn't need to express them actively?

Greetings LuckyAlbatross

an exceptionally good point lol, and one that I have never really stopped to think about if the truth be known.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:27:40 AM

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quote:

I want to know what kind of rude responses you specifically got. Because I really find it hard to envision rudeness on this venue.
Kyst

I do tend to agree with you Missokyst, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I was interested in the answers from a mixed bag of people.

In answer to your question - I do not believe I recieve 'rude' responses on here (CM Forum). Rude denotes to me, that someone has power over another even if that is to be the person being in some way negative and it affects -for example - me. As nothing affects me unless I let it, I would have to say I just do not get 'rude' responses(that may sound complete gobbledgook - but it makes sense to me)

I asked the question in response to seeing many people demand - and I do not use that word lightly - that 'respect must be earnt' as I just do not get such statement myself.

In essence, demanding that someone 'earn ones respect' could be considered rude. Dismissing someone as not being able to joke, can be considered rude. But you see many people say, unless I respect a person, or they earn my respect, I do not have to respond - which again - could be a sign of 'rudeness'. My question is intended to provoke a response as to why and what someone deems personally to be 'rude' and offer as a response. For example, one person may personally believe that it would be rude to not write to someone who has solicited conversation, and so they choose not to(because that person hasnt earnt their respect), because to them it is rude not to and so - it is the ultimate 'put down'.

Not sure if I am making much sense - but trying! - Ultimately the 'rudeness' isn't the base of the question and I just worded it badly in the first place. It is why someone decides to be rude(whatever that rudeness may be) and why, because 'respect has not been earnt', some people feel it is almost a right and a privilage to respond in a negative manner.

Peace

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 5/22/2007 9:29:21 AM >

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:28:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Good deal. What did it help clarify that I hadn't made clear before hand? Not to pry, just curious which part of my arguement hadn't made my views clear before so that I may argue more effectively in the future.

It took things you previously stated, applied them in a new way in a related and relevant context and remained consistent. In my mind playing out what "mutual respect" means to people on the street and refitting it with your construct was very sharp and clear to me.

I don't happen to agree that all respect = submission, nor do I agree that service = submission on any level, but I see where you are coming from and how you got to that point.

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:33:09 AM

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too many people confuse respect with manners - there is a difference. Treating people with respect is not the same thing as respecting them.. it's just being polite. Respect grows when people get to know who you really are, when they see values and integrity that they personally hold in high regard. Also keep in mind that you can respect ones skills without respecting them as a person.

As for how long it takes - only time will expose who we really are within and the time it takes will vary depending on our openness and the trusting nature of the other person.

Lady Kay

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:34:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It took things you previously stated, applied them in a new way in a related and relevant context and remained consistent. In my mind playing out what "mutual respect" means to people on the street and refitting it with your construct was very sharp and clear to me.

I don't happen to agree that all respect = submission, nor do I agree that service = submission on any level, but I see where you are coming from and how you got to that point.

Glad it worked out, then.

If you'd like to argue your view, feel free. Nothing's better than tempered logic, right? :P

Still, I'd like to point out, to avoid any wasted time, my logic considers micromers. I would say uncontractually serving another is likely displaying submission to them, when in context. This is not saying, though, that taking a submissive act towards another defines them as the sub in the role- only, there's a give-and-take bit, and most submit to another's wishes at times in some way.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:35:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone
Your examples, while useful for those who are unable to care for themselves in such situations, do not apply to all relationships. I find it confusing why life and death situations must be used as examples.

Because things must be carried to their logical conclusion. It's part of the process of intellectual debate.

quote:

Such things never even entered into the discussions of our relationship simply because I knew the person that I was becoming involved with.

Which always brings up the question of whether a slave is simply like everyone else who chooses their limits and restrictions, but simply finds the perfect fit and doesn't need to express them actively?

Aye, what she said covers my responses.

I dont mean to insult you or even suggest you are incapable of taking care of yourself in such statements. Its just simply logical debate.

The man your Master is and what entails in your relationship might not even be close to the conditions in the next relationship which is why, logically, I dont support the line of thinking or personally use it in my own style or dynamic.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:36:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Respect, proper, is to what degree, in what manner, and to what ends one might yield to another. Respect is a relatively tangible effect of submission.

I really like that highlighted statement - only I do not believe that is only an effect of submission. Like you suggest, respect is a component of many relationships and for me that includes non BDSM. So I would maybe exchange 'submission' simply for 'healthy relationships'?

"Healthy relationships" would work in, probably, the majority of cases.

I chose "submission" as I see submission to be the willingness to forego one's own interests for the interests of another. Should one respect another, even in the case of a man respecting a woman enough not to crudely snatch at her breasts at an impulse, he's acting against his own personal interest for hers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

Respect is a component of many relationships on many parts except for those in a supremely dominant position or those disconcerned with the reactions of others in regards to making discisions conerning their own actions.

I am interested and if you can expound on what you mean by 'except for those in a supremely dominant position'?
Peace

Ah, I'm very much into absolutes. I see a statement as wrong if it isn't applicable everywhere, so a supremely dominant position was one I mentioned for the sake of completeness.

A supremely dominant position would be like a god to a human. Such as, the Christian God need not respect humans- or make concessions to them (this isn't to say, in their religion, they don't believe that he does, he just doesn't need to).

An approximation of a supremely dominant position occurs in some instances I've observed where a slave is submissive to the point that she is utterly disconcerned with anything but serving her Master. The Master need not respect her as she would serve to the best of her ability, regardless.

High ranking officials in some organizations may also be an approximation. Such as, a fuedal king need not display much respect for a peasant's life, well being, or anything else, really.

Supremely dominant positions aren't very common, but this is what I mean by it.

Edit: Opps, missed a quote tag.

Thanks for clarifyling, CL.

Personally I do not see submission in (what is to me) such a simple term - ie foregoing ones own interests because I see submission as a completely selfish 'act'(act is probably the wrong word, but fits aptly).

But knowing your definition does aid in understanding your thoughts.

Peace

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:37:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

please keep in mind that this is only my .02 but alot of people seem to confuse respect for admiration. I give everyone respect in the beginning, it is only with time and their own actions that I lose respect for them or grow to admire them.

But the word has a general connotation, and a speccific denotation of appreciation or esteem. In general English usage the word sigmifies a level of admiration for a peron or their qualities, and when we say something like "I respect the hell out of that lady" we are using the specific denotation of admiration or esteem.

I would differentiate between the respect I have for a given individual, and the way I respect other people's rights, feelings, personal space, choices, etc.

The former is responsorial--there are people you meet in life who earn your admiration, who evoke a feeling of esteem. I think it is less about a person "earning" my respect so much as my recognizing qualities in them I value.

The second way I use the word indicates my respect for our common humanity. I respect other human beings right to life not because they deserve it--as Tolkien pointed out: "many that live deserve death"--but because I respect our common humanity. The same for respect their choices--that is not my respect for a given individual, but rather my broad respect for the autonomy of adult humans, and is not responsorial.

dark, Faramir's post quoted here is a great description of how i view "respect". TY, Faramire.

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:39:14 AM

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Kay,

Great post. I use the analogy of a Judge. If a person appears in front of a Judge, you do not have to like that person, nor respect that person, but you do show manners towards his/her Judgeship (is that a word??), if not, face the consquences.

I wish you well,

Liz

(in reply to MistressKay)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:42:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

In my mind playing out what "mutual respect" means to people on the street...

In my mind playing out what "mutual respect" means to people on the street is that as two of you approach each other both of you move out of the way so that there won't be a collision.

Is this where respect begins, to move aside ..?

< Message edited by peepeegirl5 -- 5/22/2007 9:45:35 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:43:56 AM

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Greetings MadRabbit

I took no offense at your words

I wish you well on this beautiful day

melissa

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:47:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peepeegirl5
In my mind playing out what "mutual respect" means to people on the street is that as two of you approach each other both of you move out of the way so that there won't be a collision.

Is this where respect begins, to move aside ..?

Not literally people on the street Peepee.

But it certainly could be respect for the other person in tandem with respect to where you need to go without injury.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: "Earn Respect" - 5/22/2007 9:49:16 AM

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i had a master who, in the beginning, was kind and thoughtful. after about a year together, he became abusive. i was, and still am polite to him, but there is NO respect. as stated before, manners and respect are NOT the same thing. and i will not be the property of Someone i do not respect. but i will be polite to T/them. nor will i entertain P/people who are rude to me, in person or online

respectfully,
tyger

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