RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane?

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 1:18:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
If I'm not, you could have a pretty big laugh at the idiot who's pretending to make people on a message board think he's smart.

Yeah, we could always do that.

As for improving, you should already know how to do that. Spelling and grammar aren't about memorization. The language is a system with components that work in accordance with particular rules. To comprehend and work with a system, certain arbitrary or anomalous components may need to be memorized, but rote memorization is not the primary method one employs in learning language, math, electronics theory, or any other system.

An inarticulate genius is not a genius at all. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that a 'genius' lacking communication skills is effectively impotent.

Bob

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 1:28:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

This is a bit of an exeragation, but my point is, intelligence just doesn't mean the maximum you can think at. It also implies the average. And most people can't relate to me or my average thoughts. So, yes, I'm quite miserable.

......................................

Anyhow, point being, there's not much community in the world for some. So it's easy to withdraw into one's studies, becoming a nerd of epic proportions, and justify one's existence with discovery. I may end up having to do that.. but it seems like a sad way to go.

(my editing)

...people failing to relate to you, or vice versa, is still nothing to do with insanity. Possibly social alienation, or even old fashioned loneliness but not insanity. You seem to confuse insanity with being at variance with the norm. A study some time back suggested that the average family had 2.3 children. By your logic, all families with 2 or 3 kids were insane...because they differed from the norm.

Secondly, you have no need to 'justify' your existence with discovery or anything else. Just do the best you can with what you have. You may be surprised what social possibilities this strategy can lead to.

The general tenor of your posts in this thread seem to me to be permeated with angst. Angsty people make lousy teachers, because they inevitably end up perpetuating the things that made them angst-ridden in the first place. Perhaps, instead of trying to teach all the time you should open yourself to the possibility of learning from everyone.....regardless of IQ, EQ or any other artificial form of assessment or measurment.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 1:36:45 PM

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Ah, it's alright, my grammar's great. It's spelling I'm short on.. which I'm not too worried about, to be frank, as I spell closely enough to have spell check present the proper word on the first go-through.

There's only so much a person can remember, my friend. Personally, most of the stuff I know is about math, patterns, and science. I'm already stretching the bounds of what I can remember- so I'm seeking to refine what I know as opposed to simply adding to it.

I use phonics.. sounding out every word. Many common-use words have just gotten stuck in my head. But, for the most part, I don't use a great deal of memory on storing spelling.. probably much less than many others do.

I think the main thing about being intelligent is a structured mind. I rather doubt my actual biological brain's that much of a leap or bound beyond a normal person's.

One thing I have to mention is kind of annoying, though. I used myself to show the preceptions of a genius.. to talk about how it feels like. And now it feels like I'm suddenly the topic of this thread. That's not what I wanted.. if someone wanted to talk about the preceptions, that's cool, or to come up with something else about the madness of geniuses, that'd be cool, too.. just seems like everyone's stuck on me and just how big my ego might be.

Trust me people, in the end, if my ego forces me to use a wheel barrel to get around, or if I'm actually being modest, neither way does it really matter. Let's just talk about the topic. I think it's a good one, and it's revelant to our world as many of the greatest contributions to our society have been made by geniuses. Not me.

It's important to understand the differences in thought. People of all intelligence levels have something to contribute- if even their own view on the world.. how they see things, what it feels like to be alive.. Let's talk about what it means to be intelligent, the ends of it, and how it may drive one to madness, or the appearance of such.

(in reply to DesertRat)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 1:46:56 PM

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Appreciate the advice.

Yeah, it is angst. No worries, this isn't the typical me. Just gets to me now and then, so I retreat from life and deal with it as far as possible from life so it doesn't ruin anything.

Though, insanity, I do define as being absent from a common range of norms. I would argue, one could pseudo-define insanity by taking a certain number of perpendicular axises and establishing a range for normal on each, scalarly adjusted for similar standard deviation. One could then plot the linear distance of any particular subject, as a point plotted on the many axises, to the orgin point, which the standard ranges would be based about, and establish, from a sample population of surficient size and diversity, a standard deviation scalar, figuring out just what mulitple would be generally considered insane, or perhaps a tier system, based on a series of ranges of such standard deviations. Those falling into a certain range, probably a certain scalar by the standard deviations plus, would meet the pseudo-definition of insanity.

Also, I feel life must be justified. Perhaps because I grew up Catholic- I managed to shake off the false beliefs, but not the general hopes in all instancs. I feel I must do something to justify living- perhaps it's because I can't justify my own life as being valueable within and of itself. It follows the null-set too closely.

Thanks, too, for the support. It does mean a lot.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 1:55:09 PM

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...i'd argue that insanity, instead of being a quality that can be methodically assessed, is rather an almost artistic definition. It varies from culture to culture, period of history to period of history, from person to person.
The question isn't whether one varies from a statistically valid norm, but it it is more to do with whether or not someone can cope with that norm. Insane behaviour can be seen as stemming from a lack of coping strategies, as opposed to any intrinsic quality of thought.
In addition, it is a perfectly good assumption to consider there are no insane people, only people who behave in insane ways. Which contains within it the corrolary that they don't have to continue behaving insanely. As a catholic you may appreciate that ;)

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 2:02:03 PM

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Heh, oh, I just grew up Catholic, I'm actually athiest. I can prove the Christian God doesn't exist, either, but it doesn't feel like many people have been able to understand it, despite it seeming to be a rather simple proof. =/

I feel that people judge things based on magnitudes of certain aspects. I feel that, from this, such a model that numerically takes these things into account is able to emulate, and thusly pseudo-define, a certain view. (As it may vary from culture to culture, one would take a sample population from a specific culture if it wants that specific culture's view in making such a graphical representation.)

I have two competing definitions, in my head, for insanity. One is the one I put above- an emulation. The other is "one who acts despite logic". I doubt many such people exist. While I can prove God doesn't exist, a sane person would still follow Pascal's Wager in almost all cases, should the proof be in doubt.

Edit:
PS- Thanks. This is the sort of conversation that I live for. :P

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/24/2007 2:03:22 PM >

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 2:18:15 PM

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....the problem with maps, and by extension all models, is that they are absolutely not the territory. They are useful in making observations about the probabilities of general clases of things, but far less useful when looking at specific instances. Insanity is always a specific and unique class of behaviour. Our classifications and previous experiences can only be guides and in rare cases can actually blind us to the true nature of events.
Finally you referred to the idea of a 'sane person', it may be interesting to note that if there are no insane people, just insane behaviours....then there are no sane people either. Just sane behaviours.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 2:23:21 PM

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Oh, it's okay, such a model would cover unique classes of behavior exceptionally well.

It's an intersting notion that you have- that there aren't insane people, just behaviors. Could you elaborate?
If an example is needed, I'd suggest context of the thread, as to how a genius might exhibit an insane behavior, but not himself be insane.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 2:30:13 PM

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....'fraid i'm not being original. It's merely an extension of Skinners' black box. If we focus on behaviour as opposed to general statements regarding an individuals mental state, then we tend to avoid more of those pesky map/territory errors. In short, we get it right more often by focusing on specifics rather than generalities.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 2:39:38 PM

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Ah, it's okay, that's why many scaled axises exist in the model.

I'm sorry, I know it's a complex model and I may not have explained it well. I'm not great at that.. perhaps my idea would have come across more clearly if I hadn't just lumped it all up in one paragraph of run-on syntax.

Skinner's Box? With your alias and references, I'm going to guess you have some sort of education in Psycology?
(I know what Skinner's Box is, and what a black box is, but I'm not sure what Skinner's Black Box is, unless you're implying random stimulation? That would be an odd experiment.. I think I'll spend some time considering it.)

Well, I'll hop back later, I've been online for a couple hours now, so I need a break. Good talking to you, my friend. Hope to catch you a little later!

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 3:04:20 PM

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All models suffer from Von Neumans Catastrophe i'm afraid.....so my basic distrust of them stands, no matter how complex a model it is.
As for the 'Black Box', it is the notion from behavioural psychology that the mind is a black box into which we can not see...only infer processes. Therefore we measure that which is measurable, ie stimuli and responses, and make probability assessments regarding observable behaviour.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 5:16:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
General response ...

I dispute the entire notion of IQ, levels of intelligence, and such. To me, they are scientific measures, in a science that is constantly changing...

... they had the genius, I didn't have...

...my answer is that nobody, and everybody is a genius, depending on what they are doing at the time.

That's what I think, too. And this just came to mind: Did Einstein declare himself a genius? From what I've read, he seems to have seen himself as gifted, but otherwise quite ordinary. Did Beethoven refer to himself as a genius? Newton?

Bob

I've had the good fortune to know, work with, and interview some scary-smart and luminously talented people, and I'm always struck by how humble they seem.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 5:17:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curiouslord
Nope. I can just tie it to the DSM through a long arguement I haven't provided. (I doubt anyone would get it anyway.)

.........well, it's either in the DSM or it isn't. How come this thread is moving towards a conclusion that all geniuses are arrogant? Doubting that anyone would get some argument or other is a failure of imagination, not a sign of high intelligence.

Not sure what it says about us all that no one's needed to ask what the DSM is!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 5:18:14 PM

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"That's what I think, too. And this just came to mind: Did Einstein declare himself a genius? From what I've read, he seems to have seen himself as gifted, but otherwise quite ordinary. Did Beethoven refer to himself as a genius? Newton?"

"I have nothing to declare but my genius" Oscar Wilde

...hehehehehe......

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 5:35:22 PM

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quote:

"I have nothing to declare but my genius" Oscar Wilde

I adore dear Oscar, of course, and kind folks have compared me to him. Even made a pilgrimmage to Pere Lachaise. But going after the Marquess of Queensbury was definitely not a bright move.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 5:58:22 PM

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Hey, if you can prove that God does not exist, please do so. That would indeed be a demonstration of amazing mental powers. Maybe on another thread.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 8:55:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

That's what I think, too. And this just came to mind: Did Einstein declare himself a genius? From what I've read, he seems to have seen himself as gifted, but otherwise quite ordinary. Did Beethoven refer to himself as a genius? Newton?

Yeah, Einstein did. Beethoven? He wrote music, so I never learned much about him outside the basics.

Netwon? Read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"'s commentary. He rants about how stuck up Newton was, how horrible of a human being he was. Yes- he declared himself a genius. He practically declared himself a God.

Then there's Edison, Telsa..

So, yes, most have. Kinda doubt Beethoven didn't grin now and then and say, "This is genius" when he drew such crowds. But I can't be sure. :P

Myself, an official IQ test (that cost me freaking 1k USD!) said it. And while I get IQ tests aren't always the end-all thing, I'm pretty sure it wasn't too far off base.

But, whatever. Stick it to a guy for being reasonable yet confident! That bastard!

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 9:01:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Hey, if you can prove that God does not exist, please do so. That would indeed be a demonstration of amazing mental powers. Maybe on another thread.

It's not really a grand proof of epic enlightenment. It's just some common sense.

Consider the universe. Divide it up into quanta- whatever level you like. You can even assume strings are far from elementary.
Take the Christian notion of God as being one that has lived forever before making the world and forever since.
Consider that, as time goes on forever, all possibilities will be fulfilled.
Consider that the micromers of "God" must fulfill all possible patterns- including death.
Observation: immortality is impossible.
Observation: the Christian God is immortal.
Conclusion: the Christian God is impossible.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 9:01:52 PM

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fast reply:

i suppose this is kind of a ratty thing to do, but didn't you say this:

quote:

The highschool got an official IQ test from the state for me. The final report notes that I scored two points below genius (in the "highly gifted" range)

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/24/2007 9:13:56 PM

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quote:

Consider that, as time goes on forever, all possibilities will be fulfilled.

I'm not sure I buy this premise. I can think of any number of possibilities that will never be fulfilled. Napoleon will never invade Britain, for example.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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