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RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/17/2007 5:44:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cturcott
Some of the fights seem mundane or petty, and some less so.  Last night for example, when she had trouble sleeping

OK issue:  She needs to get to sleep and is having trouble
quote:

 I suggested that she read a book I got for her recently "The Tender Heart:  Conquering your insecurity"

You respond with "Here's an idea"
quote:

 and she said she didn't want to read it after watching happy, cheery cartoons because she feared it would cause her to have bad dreams if she dealt with a topic she considers a downer. 

She responds "That's not a good idea for right now and wouldn't work to solve this problem"
quote:

 I told her the root of the problem needs to be dealt with as well, which the book is there to help her overcome,

Your response does/says 4 things:
1) I'm not listening to you, I want you to just do what I said
2) Instead of simply listening and communicating and making you feel heard, I'm going into problem-solver mode
3) My idea won't actually help THIS problem for tonight at all and will actually make it worse, but it's a good idea for the long term
quote:


and she became upset and ranted in a defensive posture for quite some time. 

Surprise!!!

And once this got on a roll, the rest was pretty much a wash.

quote:

 I tried in vain after that to tell her that I understand the need to cope in the short term, but that in the long term causes of fears need to be addressed as well.

The problem is that it was too late- you should have said this to begin with, come up with an immediate solution to the immediate problem and simply let her know you were there to listen- not make it all better.

At this point you're both too defensive to have any meaningful conversation.
quote:


I tried to be accomidating to her desire to cope, with the caveat that long term healing must also be a priority.  Eventually when it seemed she wasn't listening, I made it clear that I was not willing to live with someone who has fears and inner demons who only desires to distract herself from them and never address the root cause.  The intended message was only that I want her to find the causes of her fears and heal from them but she ranted for several hours and didn't seem to understand the incredibly simple message I was trying to say.

The fact that you let yourself get sucked into and was in fact a major cause of this argument before bed alone is ridiculous- why are you having THIS conversation before bed?  This is NOT a pre-bed type conversation at all.

So work on your communication skills-realize what she's ACTUALLY saying and wanting from you before you stomp all over with needing to have it "your way, right now."  And prioritize- some discussions are not meant for every time of the day.  Some problems need immediate help and some need long term help.  Deal with the immediate priority and LATER deal with the long term.

Finally, I saw from her posting that this is the same relationship in which you both decided to move in together with you BOTH somehow forgetting to bring up you wanting another woman.  How could you have NOT mentioned that before moving her in?  You dump that on her and expect her to deal with that when she's OBVIOUSLY got a lot of other serious issues to take care of before you can even THINK Of adding another poor soul into this huge mess.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to cturcott)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/17/2007 5:47:47 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Here's my ideal version of that conversation:

Her:  I'm having a hard time going to sleep tonight.
You:  Is this common?  Is there a way you typically use to get to sleep?
Her:  Not really, any ideas?
You:  Well, for tonight, take some tylenol PM to get you down and we'll talk about it and work on some ideas tomorrow

Now, if she starts to argue with this idea- simply say that this is not up for discussion right now, she can do what you say or she can go sleep or lay on the couch in silence and deal with further consequences later.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/17/2007 11:07:36 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
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quote:


Finally, I saw from her posting that this is the same relationship in which you both decided to move in together with you BOTH somehow forgetting to bring up you wanting another woman.  How could you have NOT mentioned that before moving her in?  You dump that on her and expect her to deal with that when she's OBVIOUSLY got a lot of other serious issues to take care of before you can even THINK Of adding another poor soul into this huge mess.

To clarify, it was discussed before we moved in together but after we had been seeing each other for perhaps a week and she didn't decide to move on.  I stated an interest in it in my profile, and until it was talked about specifically she didn't list it as a problem area for her.  Typically I am impressed by the awesome posts, and level of experience you have.  The CAPS, and the tone in this post are not only a little harsh in my opinion, but it is also a little hard to understand some of your meaning.
quote:


Here's my ideal version of that conversation:

Her:  I'm having a hard time going to sleep tonight.
You:  Is this common?  Is there a way you typically use to get to sleep?
Her:  Not really, any ideas?
You:  Well, for tonight, take some tylenol PM to get you down and we'll talk about it and work on some ideas tomorrow

Now, if she starts to argue with this idea- simply say that this is not up for discussion right now, she can do what you say or she can go sleep or lay on the couch in silence and deal with further consequences later.

This on the other hand is easy to understand, and I like the sound of it very much.  Of course the fact that it is a theoretical conversation which hasn't actually happened, with ideal outcomes, makes it thus.  I do love ideal outcomes and success after all, though reality may at times throw us awry.



_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/17/2007 11:38:34 PM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline
In my opinion.. Yes I think its a good trait in her.
opinionated however is NOT disobediance..

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Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/18/2007 10:44:57 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
As an oversight on my part, I apologize if my questions to your post were based upon my misreadings. I wanted to point out that I misread the post...peace

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to HypnoticDan)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/18/2007 10:51:07 AM   
cjenny


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Joined: 11/27/2006
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Just had a thought.. I see a lot of people that want a passionate partner here. Being passionate is a strong feeling, having the opinion if you will that passion is something worth going after or pursuing.
Sorry it isn't a fleshed out idea but my pain meds just hit and honest to gosh I lost the rest of my entire concept  .


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~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/18/2007 1:13:40 PM   
swtnsparkling


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

juliaoceania
I apologize if my questions to your post were based upon my misreadings.
I wanted to point out that I misread the post...

(in reply to HypnoticDan




< Message edited by swtnsparkling -- 6/18/2007 1:15:39 PM >


_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/19/2007 9:59:26 PM   
SirHedonicsslave


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline
From my experience, the level of frustration by the OP so early on in the relationship is a definite sign of immaturity &/or inexperience.  It takes time to make any relationship work, and less than two months is not enough time to expect her to be in absolute alignment with your wants/needs/thoughts, if it will ever even happen at all.  You say you'd like to have a "Kate," but from what I remember of that, it didn't happen overnight, or in a week or a month....but that is what you seem to expect.  He went through a LOT of effort to make that happen....let's remember it is a play...fictional....but even if it were real, it wouldn't/couldn't happen overnight (note: i am NOT advocating taking the extreme steps that he took nor am i saying i necessarily agree with the whole idea)....also, in the play, i believe they were together pretty much 24/7....ummmmmmmmm....can you both quit your jobs to have that kind of time to invest?  Reality is a friend.....a harsh friend sometimes...but it is a friend.

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RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/19/2007 10:56:16 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Let's not leave anything out now.

1)      Don’t whine or complain.
2)      If your behavior displeases me, stop immediately and ask how to become pleasing.
3)      When told how to be pleasing, seek a way to do it without protest.
4)      Do not offer explanations, give them only when asked.
5)      Don’t protect either of us from my judgment; only ask if I am sure it’s what I want.
6)      Believe I’m right whether you believe I am or not, make it so, never second guess me.
7)      Like something because I like it
8)      Dislike something because I dislike it
9)      Have confidence in something because I do
10)   Lack confidence in something because I do
11)   Check with me to determine how to feel about something
12)   Agree with everything I say, never disagree with anything I say.  Be a “yes man”.



Hello akbarbarian. Very "romantic", but "realistic?

You should try these first: 1-defer, 2-obey and 3-follow. After you get your sub to have proper attitude, behavior or demeaner by "working" consensually (baby stepping) on her daily conduct, you will probably be too "tired" to want anything else.

In order for her to defer, you have to be a respectful strong (not muscles!) person (from her point of view). In order to obey, you ask reasonable, understandable requests that can be done (from her point of view and "level" of abnegation). In order to follow? That's the hard part, you have to lead, be an example of reason, patience, wisdom and discipline (from her point of view).

The way I see it, it is better to have guidelines or principles. With time and patience, the "Magic" arrives by itself, you have an "happy" submissive and you are "happy" too. Or you may have a "perfect" unhappy submissive that you can't fix by tacking on rule 13) Be happy!

I wish you good luck and suggest you bring down the pressure a little, as there is certainly no rush in these things. Flowers don't grow faster when you pull on them. RL.


(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/20/2007 9:08:58 AM   
Federalmoogul


Posts: 5
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline
In my opinoin Yes, but only when a gag is applied!

Michael

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/20/2007 7:03:27 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHedonicsslave

From my experience, the level of frustration by the OP so early on in the relationship is a definite sign of immaturity &/or inexperience.  It takes time to make any relationship work, and less than two months is not enough time to expect her to be in absolute alignment with your wants/needs/thoughts, if it will ever even happen at all.  You say you'd like to have a "Kate," but from what I remember of that, it didn't happen overnight, or in a week or a month....but that is what you seem to expect.  He went through a LOT of effort to make that happen....let's remember it is a play...fictional....but even if it were real, it wouldn't/couldn't happen overnight (note: i am NOT advocating taking the extreme steps that he took nor am i saying i necessarily agree with the whole idea)....also, in the play, i believe they were together pretty much 24/7....ummmmmmmmm....can you both quit your jobs to have that kind of time to invest?  Reality is a friend.....a harsh friend sometimes...but it is a friend.


Taming of the Shrew took place over the span of about a week, it's worth seeing if you haven't especially the BBC version which has one of the Monty Python cast it in.  We've had more time together than that now.  How dare she?! 

Seriously, slinging criticizm around hardly establishes you as
a)  Mature
b)  Qualified to judge who is or isn't aforementioned quality

I've been at this for many years.  I haven't perfected anything, but who has?  I'd like to know.

< Message edited by akbarbarian -- 6/20/2007 7:11:21 PM >


_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to SirHedonicsslave)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/20/2007 7:10:10 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Let's not leave anything out now.

1)      Don’t whine or complain.
2)      If your behavior displeases me, stop immediately and ask how to become pleasing.
3)      When told how to be pleasing, seek a way to do it without protest.
4)      Do not offer explanations, give them only when asked.
5)      Don’t protect either of us from my judgment; only ask if I am sure it’s what I want.
6)      Believe I’m right whether you believe I am or not, make it so, never second guess me.
7)      Like something because I like it
8)      Dislike something because I dislike it
9)      Have confidence in something because I do
10)   Lack confidence in something because I do
11)   Check with me to determine how to feel about something
12)   Agree with everything I say, never disagree with anything I say.  Be a “yes man”.



Hello akbarbarian. Very "romantic", but "realistic?

You should try these first: 1-defer, 2-obey and 3-follow. After you get your sub to have proper attitude, behavior or demeaner by "working" consensually (baby stepping) on her daily conduct, you will probably be too "tired" to want anything else.

In order for her to defer, you have to be a respectful strong (not muscles!) person (from her point of view). In order to obey, you ask reasonable, understandable requests that can be done (from her point of view and "level" of abnegation). In order to follow? That's the hard part, you have to lead, be an example of reason, patience, wisdom and discipline (from her point of view).

The way I see it, it is better to have guidelines or principles. With time and patience, the "Magic" arrives by itself, you have an "happy" submissive and you are "happy" too. Or you may have a "perfect" unhappy submissive that you can't fix by tacking on rule 13) Be happy!

I wish you good luck and suggest you bring down the pressure a little, as there is certainly no rush in these things. Flowers don't grow faster when you pull on them. RL.




I would like to simplify things, but she has stated and demonstrated many times before that she thrives on high protocol.  The idea you have about being respectful (did you mean winning respect?), reasonable (or asking only what she believes she is capable of), and existing as a role model is great to say.  The aim there is to aquire the power termed "expert power" and that is a great one to have, but it doesn't seem to be in place at this point and I'm not sure exactly how to obtain it from her.  I'm no florist...flowers don't grow faster when pulled on?  I wondered if an inverted, sealed hydroponics system with the flower stems being attached to small weights might make they grow faster, there goes that plan!


_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to robertolapiedra)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/20/2007 7:27:56 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

quote/

"...I wondered if an inverted, sealed hydroponics system with the flower stems being attached to small weights might make they grow faster, there goes that plan!"

_________________________________________________________________

Well.....if you lose the hydroponics and have "her" in inverted suspension with savvy weighting?...uh...you may have something there. RL.

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Should a slave be opinionated? - 6/20/2007 9:27:05 PM   
SirHedonicsslave


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline
What i was doing was not "slinging criticsm", it was simply making an observation of what I have learned over time, through a lot of experience in dealing with people.  Slinging criticsm would have been saying something hateful or rude, which I did not do nor did I intend to do.  I have read your profile, your journal, and by reading what is there, it gives me some insight to your thought processes, also realizing it isn't a "complete biography," it does tell me something about you.  Anything good takes time and patience, and if you look at the relationships that work, things were often rocky in the beginning, but with a bit of perseverance, it all worked out.  You could ask my Master if He thinks I'm opinionated, and He'll tell you that yes, I am very opinionated, I've just learned through my life that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and there is a time and a place to expose them. 
Taming of the Shrew, like the Gorean novels, like the Marketplace series, is a work of fiction....miraculous things can happen in fictional worlds....you can strive for something similiar to it, but it's never going to be exactly the same. 

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 114
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