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The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 10:03:40 AM

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a girl would ask with great respect, some clarification of the term "Old Guard".

This has many different definitions depending on who uses the term. Research into this would seem to yield more data concerning the gay leather community than other references. In the past this girl has met one of the European Old Guard who seem to treasure their privacy, and may be said to be somewhat reclusive. Unfortunately still little is known of this group of Masters.

Many Masters use the Old Guard term in their profiles here and in some cases offer it in addition to the term Gorean Master. It seems this may be the appropriate place to direct inquiries.

For example these definitions are frequently offered by many ;

A group of European Masters who formed this "brotherhood" rooted deeply in the past, and formed smaller groups such as the "blue vase society".
The gay leather community post WW II
Those who prefer a regimented method of training and using slaves according to prescribed established methods. (This definition would seem to address that all Gorean Masters are in fact also Old Guard, which would not seem to be necessarily what people mean by the term)

it would be an honour should any choose to reply. It would be much appreciated.
shai^tana

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 1:40:30 PM

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"Old Guard" to me means something else...

It doesn't have to do with sexual preferences or where you are from. It's the way you were trained and the outlook you have.

I've been trained as "Old Guard". I served 4 years as a slave to someone, 1 year as a Majordomo (Like a "Slave Supervisior") and 2 years as a Dominant in training. Because of this, I can better relate to what the slave is feeling and what can be going on in their minds.

I've also developed a sense of duty in those years thanks to my training.

Gorean Lifestylers (and I mean no disrespect to anyone by that term) do not seem to have the same sense of seriousness about them. Yes, I've seen Kajiras be very dutiful and obediant. However, I've also heard those same slaves keep asking to get used sexually. If sex is a main issue with your service, then IMHO, you are not an "Old Guard" slave. You are simply a slave with a BDSM kink.

The term "Old Guard" means that you realize that it's not about the sex. It's about the service. Personally, I'm happiest when someone compliments my slave to me. It shows that they are providing me honor and making me look good.

Now, there's nothing wrong with being (or not being) an "Old Guard". It's simply how people choose to live their lifestyle.

I hope I helped clear this up for you and I hope that other people post to add their own ideas and comments. It would be interesting how many of us "Old Guard"ers there are left. :)

(in reply to shai^tana)

RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 4:25:44 PM

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The Old Guard is a myth. The was NO "old guard". There was no cohesive, organized association with standardized protocols and beliefs. What existed, according to all my research, were a variety of individual groups, each with their own rituals and rules. So then, which set of beliefs was The Old Guard ? And how was that determined?

The Old Guard is a legend made up by younger generations. Why? I don't know. Perhaps they wanted something to strive for. Perhaps they were trying to legitimize their beliefs. Or perhaps they just had too much time on their hands and vivid imaginations. IMX, those who claim to be part of The Old Guard are simply trying to beef up a suspect resume of experience.

If someone claims to have been trained in "an old guard style", then I'm less likely to rant, because that at least acknowledges that there was no mythical "one true way". When they say they're from The Old Guard, I say they're full of shit. At least, that's my experience.

If you want to know about the history of the leather community, join the leather history group on yahoo. There's some great information there, and very knowledgable people who aren't afraid to tell it like it is, and like it was.

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to shai^tana)

The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 5:24:12 PM

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As we can see there are vast differences in what people believe is the truth concerning the "Old Guard". Hopefully the exploration will continue.

This girl believes they exist. Also that it is not a definition relying on sexual orientation, or just an excuse for a male kink club of some sort.

The very fact that they are somewhat reclusive, and hard to acquire research on, would seem to support that they may well in fact exist. This conclusion would make sense because if one is to progress through various levels of self exploration and begin as one who submits, growing into one who Dominates, there would be a need to protect such an established system from the "slings and arrows of the misguided or the playmakers.

This girl believes the Old Guard does in fact exist, and had the sense that they were more or less as described by Master LanceLake.

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 5:36:15 PM

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I haven't had any difficulty researching the subject, personally. The information is out there. It's simply a matter of looking for it. As I said, the Leather History group is a good place to start.

I'd be very interested in seeing some evidence of the existence of a cohesive organization called The Old Guard, with standardized protocols and beliefs that didn't differ (often widely) from each little enclave to the next.

And I ask again, which one of those myriad sets of beliefs is THE one true way of The Old Guard? And who got to decide that?

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 5:57:26 PM

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SherriA:

it seems that you have had no difficulty in researching and finding info on SOME of the definitions of Old Guard. That is to say, the post WW II gay leather community adherents. However, i would respectfully suggest that there are others who may use that term "Old Guard" to describe who or what they are. It is those whom this girl suggests are more elusive and less easily researched.

Let us assume for a hypothetical moment that an Old Guard was formulated some time in the distant past, in the old world countries - perhaps of Europe. It would be reasonable to assume that such an organization was established by like-minded souls, and that it may well have flourished and been a perpetuated belief system passed on through time. It would be obvious that those founding members agreed upon a charter or some record of established beliefs and constructs.

Clearly only those who belong to this society could articulate its belief systems and answer your last two questions.

After all, the only difference between knowing who founded the Masonic brotherhood and what it stands for, as opposed to the Old Guard, is that the former chooses to reveal itself, and perhaps the latter does not. Perhaps we will never know for sure

shai^tana

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 6:17:17 PM

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Oh, you mean The Old Guard is the ancient secret European Training Houses that no one is allowed to talk about, but they'll tell you (generic you, not shai^tana) because you're so special?

I'd like to see just one shred of legitimate evidence of such a thing. They're not even a myth. They're just straight up bullshit, imx. I'm open to examining evidence to the contrary, of course. I've just yet to find any.

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 6:38:05 PM

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evidence is the issue isnt it? Does anyone believe in something without clear cogent evidence?
Sure they do....religious beliefs can be a case in point.

Regardless, the lack of proof is exactly why this girl asked for input at the outset. It is likely that some here, know more than others on this topic.

Maybe others will contribute to our current body of knowledge and opinion here.

shai^tana

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 6:46:41 PM

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The term "Old Guard" is full of mystique and seems the stuff that legend is made of. I have asked what is Old Guard several times and each time there has been only a slightly different spin on the answer. Despite it's origins, I think it has been come to be known as a highly ritualistic style of BDSM that is strict on etiquette. I am sure there was a way of doing things when the BDSM community was small and like all things it evolved with people taking what they liked out of what they were taught until it became what it is today. I ask you, can you define BDSM today? Probably not without argument. This may have been true back in the day as well. I akin the term Old Gaurd to Old School, a general term that means different things to different people. There is no sense in arguing the point or putting down others who believe in it or believe they hold a piece of it in their lifestyle. Let them be, for what is wrong in wanting to obtain an honorable purity in the lifestyle?

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 7:02:54 PM

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Ok... here's the facts everyone... Old Guard is a term that first started inthe GOR series of books in the 70's... [edited by Mod] Anyway... because of the myth and the useage it has seen many different changes over the years... these days it has come to mean that the one was taught by another Dom/Master in a strictly controlled environment. I however don't like the term Old Guard... it has no actual meaning unless you're talking about Gor and then I tend to ignore you. Reason being that most newbie wannabe trolls tend to use the term Old Guard (because they read it in the Gor books) to make them appear more knowledgeable then they really are. It's these types of terms that you as a new submissive should be cautious of because 9 times out of 10 they are players or preditors. When you hear the term Old Guard... Be on your own guard!

-=> Satyr! <=-

ed. It is asked that you refrain from insulting the Lifestyle choices of others.

The opinion you hold of those involved in the Gorean Lifestyle is exactly the opinion many of them hold of your preferences. If the situation were reversed and you on the receiving end, I would respond no differently.

< Message edited by ModeratorTwo -- 1/14/2004 10:26:12 PM >

(in reply to tygerluv)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 7:26:44 PM

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As for "Old Guard" and the Gorean novels... I can tell you right now the expression in the sense meant here is not in any of those books, and has nothing to do with them.

"It's these types of terms that you as a new submissive should be cautious of because 9 times out of 10 they are players or preditors. When you hear the term Old Guard... Be on your own guard!"

Sound advice. Whatever people feel to be the origin or level of seriousness behind the words... they have in many ways been hijacked by those wishing to sound impressive... just as is the case with any who think latching onto a catch phrase or particular image somehow gives them the fast road to being "somebody"... whatever the context may be.

< Message edited by ModeratorTwo -- 1/14/2004 10:31:54 PM >

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 8:01:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorTwo

As for "Old Guard" and the Gorean novels... I can tell you right now the expression in the sense meant here is not in any of those books, and has nothing to do with them.

Well... speaking from almost 20 years of experience here, I know for a fact that the term "Old Guard" first appeared in the Gor series of books, but as I said before, over the years the term has been used by not only by the Gorean community but by the BDSM community as well and the meaning of it has changed. However, my main point is that it is mostly used by the newbie wannabe trolls to make them appear more knowledgeable about the lifestyle then they actually are. I haven't met very many serious BDSMers who have been in the lifestyle real time that use the term "Old Guard" to discribe themselves or how they were trained or came to know the lifestyle, which is why I gave the warning.

quote:

Sound advice. Whatever people feel to be the origin or level of seriousness behind the words... they have in many ways been hijacked by those wishing to sound impressive... just as is the case with any who think latching onto a catch phrase or particular image somehow gives them the fast road to being "somebody"... whatever the context may be.

I agree with you totally on that regard. [EDIT]
-=> Satyr! <=-

ed. You have already been asked to refrain from this sort of thing.

< Message edited by ModeratorOne -- 1/15/2004 12:40:04 AM >

(in reply to ModeratorTwo)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 8:49:32 PM

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quote:

"Well... speaking from almost 20 years of experience here, I know for a fact that the term "Old Guard" first appeared in the Gor series of books"

You can claim as many years of experience as you want, and I'm not even going to question the length claimed... but your facts on this subject are wrong.

If you wish to claim facts... show me where in these novels this reference is made in the context you wish it to mean.

No, I don't actually expect you to thumb through books you obviously don't care for... but I can say with complete confidence that the term "Old Guard," as commonly used here, does not have Gor as its source.

I'd say in closing that in all my time involved with these varied topics... I have never heard anyone claim this one before.

Moderator Two

(in reply to LrdSatyr8)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 10:25:41 PM

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I have to agree with Mod 2. If you believe that the term *old guard* has anything to do with the Gorean novels, please show the references Sir? I am not Gorean, nor have I ever claimed to be. There are a few things that I agree with in my basic philosophies, and many more that I do not agree with when it comes to those that are Gorean.

I am one that has known *old guard* to be mainly from the gay leather community.

Most *old guard* I know have some form of learning to top by learning to be bottom first. One person mentions they feel it makes them a better dominant, knowing where the slave is coming from. It is good that works for them. But I know many would never work, as I know many dominants whose very personality would never allow them to ever serve as a slave to another (my own Master being one). And I know that my own mind frame is one that can never fully serve someone who would have come through as *old guard*, because if there is a part of them that could submit, I would always be pushing to expose it.

Sandy

(in reply to ModeratorTwo)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/14/2004 11:26:43 PM

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As I said before, the term "Old Guard" was first coined for the BDSM community in the John Norman books... he got the idea from the gay leather community during his research in the 60's in writting his books. Over the years the term has changed meaning and has come to be known in the BDSM community, however... my first comment was precise. I was not knocking lifestyle choices of others at all... I was simply giving the origination of the term "Old Guard" as it pertains to the BDSM community. Its like how a brand name comes to used in everyday life... "I'm gonna make a XEROX copy" or "Get mea beer from the FRIDGE (<i>FRIDGIDARE</i>)"... The term itself originated in the gay leather community, but was never associated with BDSM until the novels were written. Because of the popularity of those novels many of those terms used in them have become quite common in the BDSM community... You could say that same for several other terms "Serves" or "Kajira" for example.

-=> Satyr! <=-

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 8:04:03 AM

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No one is saying that you are knocking the lifestyles of others in your reference to the origins of "Old Guard"... its simply being said that your opinion on that origin is mistaken.

As already asked... "If you wish to claim facts... show me where in these novels this reference is made in the context you wish it to mean."

And on top of that... what exactly do you claim this "Old Guard" to be in the Gorean novels? You state that like "kajira," which you are correct in saying is a term found in those books, "Old Guard" too is a *term* used in them. I would guess it is for some exact purpose and meaning then, if it had the impact you claim. If so, what is it in reference to? "Kajira" essentially means a slave girl. What does "Old Guard" mean in these stories? You said earlier it had "no actual meaning unless you're talking about Gor," so what is that meaning?

I do see that you are now starting to make references to the leather community of the 50s/60s. Now you are on the right track.

Before you were saying "Old Guard is a term that first started in the GOR series of books in the 70's" and then you followed that in your next post with..."the term "Old Guard" first appeared in the Gor series of books"... yet in your last reply you have changed things to "The term itself originated in the gay leather community..." That doesn't seem quite as "precise" as you claim.

Also... the term "Old Guard" is not used within the Gorean community, unless its a particular group or individual incorporating terms outside of the novels. There may be some claiming to be "Gorean" and "Old Guard," or shall we say trained in ways they refer to by those names, or holding beliefs that fall under them... but the latter is not a part of the former, especially not in the sense of being something that originated in those books, or an expression promoted by them.

Well, either way... there isn't much sense in going back and forth over this anymore. If you want to believe as you think, that is fine with me as my desire isn't to convince anyone of anything, but simply to present information. Both opinions seem to have been clearly stated and interested parties reading this can decide what they wish to take from it.

Luck to you, Satyr...

Moderator Two

< Message edited by ModeratorTwo -- 1/15/2004 4:06:26 PM >

(in reply to LrdSatyr8)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 9:14:35 AM

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This is a fascinating thread, though I'd be happy to clear up the misconception about the term Old Guard coming from John Norman's Gor novels once and for all. I have the first twenty five books of the series in text format(of twenty six, the last of which came out in the year 2000, which I own in hardback.)

A full text search of the phrase 'Old Guard' yielded not one hit. If the phrase is in fact used, I would like to know which book, and which pages - as I've never come across it.

Having said that, while I enjoyed reading the books, I don't engage in a 'Gorean' lifestyle in my real life anymore then someone who might read the Beauty books might use a few of the ideas in their bedroom.

From my own experiance, I roomed with a couple where the man was in his early 70s. He told a few stories of when he lived in New York, describing the 'Old Guard' as being similar to LanceLake's appraisal. He served as a slave in a 'formal' setting for a couple years, and eventually attained dominant status. To my understanding, though, Sherri is also correct in saying there was no cohesive, organized association or movement, anymore then disco might have been an organized cohesive establishment - but that doesn't mean there weren't people playing the same game, especially in the larger cities - SF, LA, NYC, etc etc.

Today, when I see someone say they are 'Old Leather' unless they are well into their 50s and 60s, I tend to simply nod and smile, and in my mind, consider them to simply enjoy formalized styles of BDSM, with emphasis on discipline corporal punishment.

Just my two cents

Stephan

< Message edited by Voltare -- 1/15/2004 9:15:17 AM >

(in reply to ModeratorTwo)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 9:15:39 AM

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Reading the above

My definition of old guard is the true 24/7 master slave relationship where the slave turns over all responsibility to her master. Simple as that.

And so we see that the term is a ambiguous as the person using it, if one sees it as a Gor term then it's fine with me, if one sees it as a gay leathermen term that is also fine with me.
I do disagree with the assertion that anyone who checked that box is a fake... do you have documentation to prove that? Hmmm?

And so the pissing contest continues..

strictandcruel
who has lived 24/7 with a full time slave that he considers old guard slavery

(in reply to ModeratorTwo)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 1:24:49 PM

Samos

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The term "Old Guard" actually didn't begin with John Norman's GOR novels.

It is however a term that began in the gay leather community. It is a type of training discipline that is very strict, and very unyielding. It is similar to the training that many participate in a real time Master/slave relationship.

This training entails for many extreme BDSM practices with single tail, flogging, orgasm training (for gay male slaves), toilet, enema, cbt, caging and more. As sherria has said there are several sites with information about this regimen of training and ownership, which is quite true. However, the reality is that there is an "Old Guard" training regimen. Which is contrary to her research. The important thing about "Old Guard" is that there is no consideration for anyone to be submissive, only slave. I say that for those that have issues with the terminology.

There is a term in the GOR novels that is referred to as "Old Guard" but it has a different meaning and is related to the training that the feature character Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba (later Bosk of Port Kar) received as a warrior when he began training.

The other thing to remember that labels mean really nothing in as much as what is really important, in the relationship between the Master and the slave. The Master's needs under "Old Guard" come first, foremost and always. The Master will derive pleasure from "using" the slave sexually, to inflicting torture, humiliation, and degradation of the slave. The slave derives pleasure from satisfying the needs of the Master.

Just as in the vanilla world, the BDSM community has become hung up on labels and such. One can be a submissive but is insulted if they are referred to as slave. Just as the label of whether one is "Old Guard," or Gorean. To some these regimens and experience are very meaningful and exciting, while to others it is terrifying! My point is that each couple has to communicate their respective needs, dreams, fantasies and desires. Then together they (should) begin that journey to build a relationship that will be rewarding, and fulfilling to each of them.

For me, I was mentored by a couple upon my entrance in this lifestyle long before there was an internet, and most likely long before many here ever heard of BDSM, Gorean, Old Guard and much more. I learned Gorean in real time and the dynamics of Old Guard as well. Until a couple of years ago I had never even visited a cybergor chatroom. With Old Guard Masters, I've had the pleasure to know a few, and yes it began after World War II. I've also seen training and discipline sessions of them with the male slaves. I have seen couples that are living as Master and slave whose relationships and practices could very easily be termed "Old Guard."

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 1:28:52 PM

Samos

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I must agree with what the Master "Strict and Cruel" states that to label one a fake because they have the term "Old Guard" in the list of interests a fake something that no one has the right to challenge, unless that person has worn the collar of the other or seen first hand that person training or disciplining a slave or on the receiving end of said experience.

"Unless you've walked the self same road, in the self same shoes, at the self same time, you do not know what that person has experienced." Author Unknown

(in reply to Samos)

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