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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 5:44:23 AM

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*deleted*

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 10/27/2007 5:45:00 AM >

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(in reply to Rule)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 5:45:38 AM

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Deleted because what I was responding to was deleted so there really isn't any point to leaving my post up.
Don't you just love the 'edit' button...?

< Message edited by camille65 -- 10/27/2007 5:48:01 AM >

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:04:35 AM

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Wow, Cyn, now, you have done it. You have provoked my thoughts and are making me think on a Saturday morning, before i have even finished one cup of tea. i usually just deal with the way i am and not too much about the why i am the way i am, if that makes sense.

i guess my answer to your question is that it's pretty much a combination of factors, as i think most things about me are. i have always had the potential, the urge, the willingness and, the ability to be a slave but, i was going to just be a slave, unless and until i was with a man, who wanted me and required me to be His slave. i wasn't going to just do that on my own. i have never liked defining my place within my intimate relationships. i have never liked the idea of being the one to say, "This is how i want You to treat me." If He didn't take me as His slave, i wasn't going to be His slave. i hope that makes some sense. If not, i can try again later, after i have had some more caffeine.

i don't happen to believe that there is a fundamental difference between someone who is a slave and someone who is a submissive, outside of the fact that everyone is different. i also don't believe that being a slave is any more submissive than being a submissive. This may not be true for anyone else but, it's true for me. i am no more submissive as my Master's slave than i was when i was my Dom's submissive or, even as i was when i was my boyfriend's girlfriend or my father's daughter. i have always been just as submissive as i am now. i haven't changed in how i relate to the man i am intimately involved with. The only thing that has changed is how each man related to me and treated me. The more that i am dominated, the more that i submit but, that is with regard to what i do, not with who i am.

For me, submitting more to a man that requires more submission doesn't mean that i am any more submissive. It just means that i am doing more submitting than i did before. It's the difference between doing and being, for me. i do more. i am not more. Does any of this make sense or should i just go get another cup of tea and try again later?

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating
Hi Joy
Your post is thought-provoking.. ( as usual)

so...I can read this 3 ways

~ you are a slave, who was in relationships that didn't utilize your slave nature and full potential until now..

~ you were submissive but then became slave because of the dominant ( master) man and his desires, life-style preferences and demands of you..

~ you feel, there is no difference between a slave and a submissive..the difference lies in the type of relationship and the structure of what goes on between the people(s) in that relationship..

do you feel one of these interpretations is closer to your thoughts/experience/meaning of your post? or a 4th that I'm not reading??

(in reply to Cyntilating)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:29:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

why does everything have to be put in a neat little box? why can't it just be what it is, messy and undefined?

messy and undefined yes : )

not sure why not... seems a thread that began about "breaking" has once again> become about differences in slave and sub.. some say one is broken and one is not.

wish it hadn't but it has...

I am trying to follow the logic..
hmm.. wheres the logic in following the logic ? LOL

from what I have observed in the past> Joy has a good grasp on who she is and how her relationship works and why...so I asked her : )

ok rather> I'm just trying to follow the conversation..
hoping someone answers my questions somewhere along the line.
: )

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to chellekitty)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:50:01 AM

Rover

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Fast Reply to no one in particular...

In my opinion, the real issue in this thread is that many people "feel" intuitively that there is some difference between submissives and slaves. But that's based upon our own stereotypical (and unrealistic) expectations rather than anything that can actually be observed in life. Look at the difficulty people have had in this thread (and elsewhere) in simply describing traits that distinguish one from the other. Logic dictates that if you can't distinguish one from the other... well... they might be indistinguishable (ie: one in the same).

Still people's "feelings" can be pretty strong that this distinction must or should exist, even in the absence of any corraborative evidence. Which has, over the years, been the genesis for a seemingly endless stream of aborted definitions. Just as there are a seemingly endless number of threads on the subject at Collarme (and other websites).

But spend a little time out in the real time community and you'll find that even our "feelings" about slaves and submissives aren't very accurate. Generally speaking, people "feel" that a slave is "more submissive" than a submissive, and that there is some unknown and indescribable threshold that one's submission crosses, entering into the mystical world of slavery. Yet that's not what we see in the real world. Some of the most "slavish" people I know insist that they are submissives. And some of the least submissive people I know insist that they are slaves.

Who are any of us to tell them that they're wrong? Who are any of us to be the final arbiter of who is and who isn't a slave or submissive?

Are you all familiar with Jon Jacobs? Jon Jacobs was once part of mainstream BDSM; an author, a partner with Dr. Gloria Brame, a respected member of the greater community. Things changed over the years (I don't claim to know why or how, just that they did) and he ended up living as a relative recluse in northern Canada from where he invited female submissives/slaves to come live with him while he found them suitable partners. And in the interim they could serve him while they waited for his matchmaking skills to prove fruitful. You see, JJ claimed to be able to identify "twue" Dominants (kinda like those in this thread who claim to be able to identify "twue" slaves or "twue" submissives). Only problem was that, according to JJ, "twue" Dominants were quite a rareity (I seem to recall that he said at one point that he had only met 9 "twue" Dominants in all his life) and the poor girls waited, and waited, and waited for JJ to find their Prince Charming. Of course, the odds were not so favorable with so few "twue" Dominants lurking about, and despite JJ's best efforts the girls would eventually leave unfulfilled. Of course, there are enough gullible folks on the internet that he evidently managed to maintain an adequate staff at his residence.

Jon Jacobs passed away in 2004, but this idea that people can identify "twue" Dominants, "twue" submissives, "twue" slaves, etc. both predates him, and lives on without him. There are those that will believe almost anything, and always will be.

Now you might say that there's no comparison, in that JJ only identified 9 "twue" Dominants and there are certainly many more "twue" slaves and submissives out there. But now you're just arguing over quantity, rather than the validity of the identification process itself. I suggest that a much more accurate identification process is that which observes those who claim the ability to identify "twue" or "real" submissives, slaves, Dominants, etc. They're easily identifiable (they readily use those terms), and invariably should be viewed with suspicion and skepticism.

John

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(in reply to chellekitty)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:54:19 AM

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I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

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(in reply to Rover)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:54:45 AM

RRafe

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Rover, you make a good point. I have learned something very simple-in over a decade of experience in this. (and not just on the computer) Roles mean nothing. Definitions are fluid-not static. How you interact with another person is what matters. And beyond that-not a lot else has much credence.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 6:57:59 AM

RRafe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

I had hoped that someone who had actually been through this would have posted about it-from the bottom side. What we got instead-was a few clueless people trying to puff up over thier vast knowledge of what they hope to be able to do some day. Hot air over nothing.

Maybe if we just ignored the instigators with a block-we could get his back on topic? Instead of catering to thier derailments?

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(in reply to camille65)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:03:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

I had hoped that someone who had actually been through this would have posted about it-from the bottom side. You must have missed my post then. What we got instead-was a few clueless people trying to puff up over thier vast knowledge of what they hope to be able to do some day. Hot air over nothing. Not everyone that posted 'is clueless people trying to puff up', there were a lot of things shared by people until the BS of slave vs submissive reared its head.

Maybe if we just ignored the instigators with a block-we could get his back on topic? Instead of catering to thier derailments? Pulling someone up and complaining about the behaviour is catering to them?
I spoke up because this was an important topic to me. I posted my personal experience with the topic and how it has effected me. I personally find it tiresome to see people battling over semantics when the thread doesn't even touch upon that.
Some threads yes, it matters. This thread however was entitled 'Breaking a sub/slave' which includes both. Not one or the other but both.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:06:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisteriaV

I have heard the term "breaking a sub and/or slave" several times. I know I will get many diverse answers to this question which will help me to understand the concept better. What does the term "breaking a sub and/or slave " mean? From what I have gathered thus far its a breaking of a will or spirit....

I can not believe that I actually read this whole thread.

I am going to direct my reply only to the original question asked and leave the rest for everyone else to bash each other over

You are correct that there are many, many different ideas and visions of what ‘breaking’ someone could be. Depending on the people involved, it could be a good thing, or it could be something that is destructive.

My late husband broke me. Shattered every mental, physical, and psychological barrier that was present. He did it for a good reason though. When I first met him I was on a path of fury and violence with no way of pulling myself out. So, he took me in hand; and brought me down to a level that was so raw, and so low, there was no place left for me to go other than in the direction that he pushed. It worked for me. Taught me how to control myself.

Then there are some who would attempt the same thing but for the wrong reasons. They don’t want to help their submissive or slave to become better; they just want to degrade, hurt, harm; simply because it is the only way that they themselves can maintain control.

Breaking can be good; or it can be bad. It all depends on the people involved and their reasons for doing so.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:08:17 AM

RRafe

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I didn't miss your post-or silken's. I'm just annoyed with the twits arguing semantics.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:10:28 AM

RRafe

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Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisteriaV

I have heard the term "breaking a sub and/or slave" several times. I know I will get many diverse answers to this question which will help me to understand the concept better. What does the term "breaking a sub and/or slave " mean? From what I have gathered thus far its a breaking of a will or spirit....

I can not believe that I actually read this whole thread.

I am going to direct my reply only to the original question asked and leave the rest for everyone else to bash each other over

You are correct that there are many, many different ideas and visions of what ‘breaking’ someone could be. Depending on the people involved, it could be a good thing, or it could be something that is destructive.

My late husband broke me. Shattered every mental, physical, and psychological barrier that was present. He did it for a good reason though. When I first met him I was on a path of fury and violence with no way of pulling myself out. So, he took me in hand; and brought me down to a level that was so raw, and so low, there was no place left for me to go other than in the direction that he pushed. It worked for me. Taught me how to control myself.

Then there are some who would attempt the same thing but for the wrong reasons. They don’t want to help their submissive or slave to become better; they just want to degrade, hurt, harm; simply because it is the only way that they themselves can maintain control.

Breaking can be good; or it can be bad. It all depends on the people involved and their reasons for doing so.

Nodding,it's not so much about how-as why.

Intent is everything.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:20:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Wow, Cyn, now, you have done it. You have provoked my thoughts and are making me think on a Saturday morning, before i have even finished one cup of tea.  i usually just deal with the way i am and not too much about the why i am the way i am, if that makes sense.

i guess my answer to your question is that it's pretty much a combination of factors, as i think most things about me are. i have always had the potential, the urge, the willingness and, the ability to be a slave but, i was going to just be a slave, unless and until i was with a man, who wanted me and required me to be His slave. i wasn't going to just do that on my own. i have never liked defining my place within my intimate relationships. i have never liked the idea of being the one to say, "This is how i want You to treat me." If He didn't take me as His slave, i wasn't going to be His slave. i hope that makes some sense.  If not, i can try again later, after i have had some more caffeine.

i don't happen to believe that there is a fundamental difference between someone who is a slave and someone who is a submissive, outside of the fact that everyone is different. i also don't believe that being a slave is any more submissive than being a submissive. This may not be true for anyone else but, it's true for me. i am no more submissive as my Master's slave than i was when i was my Dom's submissive or, even as i was when i was my boyfriend's girlfriend or my father's daughter. i have always been just as submissive as i am now. i haven't changed in how i relate to the man i am intimately involved with. The only thing that has changed is how each man related to me and treated me. The more that i am dominated, the more that i submit but, that is with regard to what i do, not with who i am.

For me, submitting more to a man that requires more submission doesn't mean that i am any more submissive. It just means that i am doing more submitting than i did before. It's the difference between doing and being, for me. i do more. i am not more. Does any of this make sense or should i just go get another cup of tea and try again later?

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating
Hi Joy
  Your post is thought-provoking.. ( as usual)

so...I can read this 3 ways

~ you are a slave, who was in relationships that didn't utilize your slave nature and full potential until now..

~ you were submissive but then became slave because of the dominant ( master) man and his desires, life-style preferences and demands of you..

~ you feel, there is no difference between a slave and a submissive..the difference lies in the type of relationship and the structure of what goes on between the people(s) in that relationship..

do you feel one of these interpretations is closer to your thoughts/experience/meaning of your post? or a 4th that I'm not reading??

Joy
{ Does any of this make sense or should i just go get another cup of tea and try again later? }

it absolutely does make sense : )

and then you write :
{ don't happen to believe that there is a fundamental difference between someone who is a slave and someone who is a submissive, outside of the fact that everyone is different. i also don't believe that being a slave is any more submissive than being a submissive. This may not be true for anyone else but, it's true for me. }

yes...after all, isn't that what all of "this wiiwd" comes down to anyway ? what matters is what is true and right for us individually and within our relationship with the other(s) person. What we call it, define it as , make it and do with it..is generally as individual as the individuals involved ..

thanks Joy
for answering..
your caffeine level seemed fine to me ..grinz..

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 7:50:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Perhaps she knows something that RRafe does not?

No, she has an opinion based on her perceptions of her experiences and so does he. Just like you have an opinion based on your fantasies and no experience to back them up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Why does one need a consensus? Something is either true or it is not. A consensus does not a truth make. There used to be consensi that the Earth was flat and that it was the centre of the solar system and such.

Nope, but there has to be credible fact for people to intiellgently determine something is true, Yoda and this is another one of your "brilliant" straw man arguments that you keeep tossing out in these threads.

This is nothing but theory, opinion, and speculation...theory, opinion, and speculation that is not new to the Internet. Your just simply the next Messiah in line on the Internet claiming they have the "Holy Grail" of the true definitions of the slave and submissive.

Provide us with a massive psychological study of all the slaves and submissives in the public scene that determined two seperate lists of traits of the "real", "natural" or "true" slave based on percentages and then this silliness will have some place on the mantle of fact and logic. Just like they provided actual facts to determine the Earth wasnt flat and wasnt the center of the universe.

Until then...join the corner with the True Old Guard, the ancient European Houses, and the 1000 year old BDSM society.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
In any case there is something far superior to a consensus at hand: me. That is why all ought to obey and attend to me, even though I am not that dominant at all.

I rest my case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I am seriously impressed, MadRabbit. You have done your homework! These were indeed some of my sources of information. (There is more.)

Perhaps there is hope for you yet. Well done.

What? More websites? More fantasy books? Perhaps you have the secert Leather scrolls from the True Old Guard?

There is plenty of hope for me. Feel free to ask some of the people I have played with and the girls I have been with in real time.

There isnt much hope for you and your future on this message board.

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:17:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

It became crucial to this argument when certain Prophets insisted that their methodology of "breaking" someone could only work on the true slaves.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I find nothing sad about this thread or the fact that it was derailed.

As I gain more experience with the public scene and do more and more reasearch, I come closer and closer to the opinion that about 70% of stuff posted on message boards like this is complete garbage.

There is always going to be individuals like Rule, SixFootMaster, Bobgkin, and others who will try to solict "truth" or "fact" that is not even close to be "true" or "fact" and for the purposes of education and learning, this garbage has to be challenged and debunked, whether its on topic or not.

I find it really sad when people continullay post about sad it is when arguments like this come up, as in there was something sad about not letting Internet bullshit pass by untouched.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/27/2007 8:19:47 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to camille65)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:21:38 AM

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with all due respect,
if the slave is not what a D wants, why not reject that one and find a slave that is closer to what the D is looking for?
i mean, why does a D WANT to break a slave?
it doesnt make them that much more dominate.
i was the property of someone who thought the only way to "own" me was to break me.
the attempt did not garner him the slave of his dreams. what it got him was attacked and left alone.
if a sub/slave request to be broken (something i personally wouldnt understand, but different strokes for different folks) then i can understand an attempt at it, with the proper instruction and care (before, during and after it is done), but to assume that any/every sub/slave a D comes into contact could and should be broken, or they are not ( now here's a good one) a "true" submissive is a ignorant and dangerous conviction to hold.
just ask my last dom.

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:25:51 AM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apettiger

with all due respect,
if the slave is not what a D wants, why not reject that one and find a slave that is closer to what the D is looking for?
i mean, why does a D WANT to break a slave?
it doesnt make them that much more dominate.
i was the property of someone who thought the only way to "own" me was to break me.
the attempt did not garner him the slave of his dreams. what it got him was attacked and left alone.
if a sub/slave request to be broken (something i personally wouldnt understand, but different strokes for different folks) then i can understand an attempt at it, with the proper instruction and care (before, during and after it is done), but to assume that any/every sub/slave a D comes into contact could and should be broken, or they are not ( now here's a good one) a "true" submissive is a ignorant and dangerous conviction to hold.
just ask my last dom.

Exactly. Which is why I just look for a girl who likes things I do. If someone thinks she needs to be "forced to submit" it tells me they don't want to submit-they want to role play.

I'm not against role playing.

I am against being dishonest with yourself.

Or insane.

Edited to add-here's a little mind fuck that I do-often. I mention enjoying a thing that I know that 95% of women out there hard limit. I do it with malice of forethought. I WANT to run off,and discourage the attention of women who can't see the attraction in it. I am not stupid enough to try and mold myself to the expectations of a "mainstream".

Would I try to "break" a woman into doing this? Even if she did, it would be grudging-and it would remove the happy feelings about it. It would not work-I realize this.

Maybe others are simply so selfish-that they dont care?

They must have the skin of a rhinocerous.

< Message edited by RRafe -- 10/27/2007 8:30:49 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to apettiger)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:26:10 AM

Posts: 5746
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From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

It became crucial to this argument when certain Prophets insisted that their methodology of "breaking" someone could only work on the true slaves.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I find nothing sad about this thread or the fact that it was derailed.

As I gain more experience with the public scene and do more and more reasearch, I come closer and closer to the opinion that about 70% of stuff posted on message boards like this is complete garbage.

There is always going to be individuals like Rule, SixFootMaster, Bobgkin, and others who will try to solict "truth" or "fact" that is not even close to be "true" or "fact" and for the purposes of education and learning, this garbage has to be challenged and debunked, whether its on topic or not.

I find it really sad when people continullay post about sad it is when arguments like this come up, as in there was something sad about not letting Internet bullshit pass by untouched.

I'm a bit confused. I never said I felt sad... and what you really find "sad when people continullay post about sad it is when arguments like this come up, as in there was something sad about not letting Internet bullshit pass by untouched." So aren't you essentially saying it is sad to speak up as I did yet somehow it is okay when you do?

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RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:28:52 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe
What we got instead-was a few clueless people trying to puff up over thier vast knowledge of what they hope to be able to do some day.

I must not have been paying attention when I read the posts in this thread. Can you provide us with a quote of one of those people saying that they hope to do whatever some day?

Anyway, I am done with this thread. Those that have no clue and that therefore are not qualified to know hopefully still have no clue. Those that are qualified may find in the posts of SFM and mine some information that may benefit them and that will enable them to make their own choices. This situation suits me just fine.

(in reply to RRafe)

RE: Breaking a sub/slave? - 10/27/2007 8:33:21 AM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I think it is a shame that once again a thread has been derailed & diverted over something as nonsensical as assigning proper terminology.

It wasn't even a part of the OP to distinguish between sub and slave yet to some people it seemed of utmost importance to interject that.

It became crucial to this argument when certain Prophets insisted that their methodology of "breaking" someone could only work on the true slaves.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I find nothing sad about this thread or the fact that it was derailed.

As I gain more experience with the public scene and do more and more reasearch, I come closer and closer to the opinion that about 70% of stuff posted on message boards like this is complete garbage.

There is always going to be individuals like Rule, SixFootMaster, Bobgkin, and others who will try to solict "truth" or "fact" that is not even close to be "true" or "fact" and for the purposes of education and learning, this garbage has to be challenged and debunked, whether its on topic or not.

I find it really sad when people continullay post about sad it is when arguments like this come up, as in there was something sad about not letting Internet bullshit pass by untouched.

I'm a bit confused. I never said I felt sad... and what you really find "sad when people continullay post about sad it is when arguments like this come up, as in there was something sad about not letting Internet bullshit pass by untouched." So aren't you essentially saying it is sad to speak up as I did yet somehow it is okay when you do?

It's sad not to challenge idiots who may be passing on bad information to new people. Many of us who are active in local communities have seen the grief it can lead to. We try to make it clear-that people like rule should not be validated-but corrected.

I guess we see it as community service?

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to camille65)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Breaking a sub/slave?

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