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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/25/2007 4:45:48 PM

DiannaVesta

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I think this depends on YOUR meaning of prostituttion. If fucking a guy in the ass, pissing in his mouth, making him jerk off and sucking up his own cum is prostitution, then I am exactly that. Arrest me.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/25/2007 4:48:02 PM

MuscleCuteClever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLupineNYC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MuscleCuteClever
...even in a country where BDSM was born ...

um....honestly...this seems like something I would be hesitant to claim. There is no 'official' birthplace of BDSM (the term itself is even quite modern, only being used for the past 30 or so years, before that just SM was more comon) and, much like the debate on the when and where of Jesus' birth on this beautiful Christmas morning- there is much debate about even the more modern aspects of bdsm. There are many aspects of kink that started out originally as very unsexual (speaking of which, I can't wait to experiment with waterboarding this upcomming weekend ) which are now utilized in ritual, sexual play, and deep D/s relationships.

I was only talking about Germany, the comment wasnt supposed to be like I was stating a fact it was just to indicate its kinkiness. Besides BDSM being "born" or anything for that matter is a silly thing to say. There was a bit of sarcasm in my post.

Besides: http://fashionworlds.blogspot.com/2000_01_10_fashionworlds_archive.html

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/25/2007 6:36:50 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JordanNYC

i am finding submissive men are writing me here more and more often simply to insult me and call me a prostitute. wtf? are they just frustrated? are they THAT pathetic? either way, it's irritating, to say the least.

Get over it.

Or switch to a lucrative career in newspaper delivery.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 12/25/2007 7:04:06 PM >

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/25/2007 6:48:24 PM

HeavansKeeper

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The reason I'm not a prodom is to avoid four page drama logs. O.o

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 5:59:19 AM

cyberdude611

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If you are doing that profession, you are going to be called a lot of things much worse than a "prostitute." Society lumps pro-dommes into the same category as street-walkers. I know pro-dommes dont consider themselves as prostitutes but to the vanilla society that we all live in, it's all the same. You are exchanging a sexual service for financial gain. In the eyes of most, that's a prostitute.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 12/26/2007 6:00:16 AM >

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 12:51:39 PM

MuscleCuteClever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: MuscleCuteClever

and yeh, them guys who want to get Pro session etc. I think they are a pain too and influence the social environment of these places in such a way that is detrimental to others.

How can anyone who is more openminded than you, influence anywhere to be socially detrimental ? pro Dommes provide a service, some guys decide to use it. Whats the problem with this in general and how does it affect yor enviroment ?

Being open minded or not is not the same thing as being intelligent and understanding sociology or not. Seeing as you asked I have spoken to many Dommes from all over the world over the years on this thing now and its all the same, they dont find, some never will therfor a Pro Dommes (who is into it) chances will be less if not as little as a cold day in hell.

No offence these are the facts.

People in the scene often regard their aspirations within the scene as an individual, Which would be good if the larger environment was functional enough for the individual’s aspirations to succeed within. However as some might know it is a relatively dysfunctional environment especially for F/m.

The larger environment is what the individual exists within so an individual’s aspirations are sought from that. Therefore individualism does not always lend itself to the environment, Co-operation would improve the larger environment and move towards an environment where individualism is more viable.

I think the complaints and issues are just a reflection of the things others take issue with and part of a hypocrisy in which people either fail or neglect to realize, which in turn gets echoed back and forth. Few seem to have a "“sociological telescope"” powerful enough to see it.

I have 100's of pages written up on this subject,

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:16:22 PM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4mistressinnj
Well this is a lifestyle site for starters.

Here we go again with this bullshit. The owners/operators of the site have made crystal clear that ALL are welcome here, whether they do BDSM for free or whether they do it for money. I think some folks forget that many professional dominas helped mold and shape what BDSM is and continues to be, and some of them (whether still working or retired) ARE the educators in the community and are the big ticket names at most of the "lifestyle" BDSM events around the world.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:19:29 PM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

quote:

ORIGINAL: JordanNYC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne
But I still don't really understand why a Domme would let being called prostitute upset her. She either is - or isn't - as defined by the law in her state. That is completely her free choice. These guys are just mad because they want her but cannot afford her. And they know it.

I am upset with the notion of supposedly submissive men being rude without the slightest provocation. Being insulting in every shape and form possible. I don't give a hoot what the legal definition is. I care that pathetic assholes are insulting me for the sake of feeling better about their worthless selves.

Three things come to mind:

1) If you don't like how your potential customers behave don't sell to them. That's a truism in any business.

2) If you think customers are being rude "without the slightest provocation" one could perhaps reconsider if there might actually be some form of provocation, however "slight" that one is unaware of.

3) If you routinely think of your customers are "worthless" see point 2 above.

In any economic situation the buyers take precedence over the sellers. If one is in business and routinely has problems with customers, it's usually better to reconsider the quality, marketing, and advertising of one's product then to whine that the customers don't live up to your product.

No where did Jordan say that her customers are worthless. Nowhere.

I'd agree with her that guys who feel the need to say harmful, hateful things to someone else regardless of the title they emblazon themselves with ARE pathetic assholes -- in or out of BDSM. They're the ones that call her a prostitute....the ones who proclaim to sincerely apply to serve me as a dedicated submissive then when denied, spring into a litany of kindegarten-esque hate slurs ranging from 'fatso' to 'whore'......it's no different. There are assholes in this world.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:30:29 PM

DarkDaddyZ

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I posted this on the Domme vs Pro thingie on General and wanted to put this here:

I often wonder why Pro Dommes get so much heat in our community when many pro Dommes have started some of the great leather-groups and leather runs of this country (as I've said in previous posts- no star f*cking here).

To me they are members of the leather community as much as all of us are including those who never get from behind a computer that are in leather/BDSM boards and websites (oh no he didn't!)

We never slam authors of BDSM based books. They are professionals in the BDSM community.
We never slam those who sell BDSM toys. They are professionals in the BDSM community.
We don't slam club owners. They are professionals in the BDSM community.

Edited to add

In the 90s, most female organized leather groups were organized by professional Dommes. The PEPs, The Red Chair and so on. Many leather groups have pro Dommes on their boards. So when is the flack going to end? The first place I went to was a place that was ran by a pro Domme. I don't remember any flack from that. In my opinion the flack didn't start until the boom on the net and BDSM websites. But what do I know?

Z-

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:31:33 PM

JordanNYC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

quote:

ORIGINAL: JordanNYC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne
But I still don't really understand why a Domme would let being called prostitute upset her. She either is - or isn't - as defined by the law in her state. That is completely her free choice. These guys are just mad because they want her but cannot afford her. And they know it.

I am upset with the notion of supposedly submissive men being rude without the slightest provocation. Being insulting in every shape and form possible. I don't give a hoot what the legal definition is. I care that pathetic assholes are insulting me for the sake of feeling better about their worthless selves.

Three things come to mind:

1) If you don't like how your potential customers behave don't sell to them. That's a truism in any business.

2) If you think customers are being rude "without the slightest provocation" one could perhaps reconsider if there might actually be some form of provocation, however "slight" that one is unaware of.

3) If you routinely think of your customers are "worthless" see point 2 above.

In any economic situation the buyers take precedence over the sellers. If one is in business and routinely has problems with customers, it's usually better to reconsider the quality, marketing, and advertising of one's product then to whine that the customers don't live up to your product.

No where did Jordan say that her customers are worthless. Nowhere.

I'd agree with her that guys who feel the need to say harmful, hateful things to someone else regardless of the title they emblazon themselves with ARE pathetic assholes -- in or out of BDSM. They're the ones that call her a prostitute....the ones who proclaim to sincerely apply to serve me as a dedicated submissive then when denied, spring into a litany of kindegarten-esque hate slurs ranging from 'fatso' to 'whore'......it's no different. There are assholes in this world.

Thank you for this. Thank you for your understanding, and mostly for your ability to actually read. It seems to have missed a few here.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:38:18 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

I posted this on the Domme vs Pro thingie on General and wanted to put this here:

I often wonder why Pro Dommes get so much heat in our community when many pro Dommes have started some of the great leather-groups and leather runs of this country (as I've said in previous posts- no star f*cking here).

To me they are members of the leather community as much as all of us are including those who never get from behind a computer that are in leather/BDSM boards and websites (oh no he didn't!)

We never slam authors of BDSM based books. They are professionals in the BDSM community.
We never slam those who sell BDSM toys. They are professionals in the BDSM community.
We don't slam club owners. They are professionals in the BDSM community.

Edited to add

In the 90s, most female organized leather groups were organized by professional Dommes. The PEPs, The Red Chair and so on. Many leather groups have pro Dommes on their boards. So when is the flack going to end? The first place I went to was a place that was ran by a pro Domme. I don't remember any flack from that. In my opinion the flack didn't start until the boom on the net and BDSM websites. But what do I know?

Z-

I hypothetically wonder what the conversation and responses would be like to all of the pros who give themselves to the BDSM community refusing to participate in "lifestyle" events or teaching her hard-earned skills to others because the collective -- folks who have skilld enough to be paid for what they do and run a business doing so -- views THEM as "BDSM hobbyists" or "kinky weekend warriors". My thoughts are that they'd feel like shit too if someone repeatedly invalidated their interests, their passions and their lives.

People who live in glass houses shoudn't toss rocks.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 1:40:55 PM

DarkDaddyZ

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MisPandora said:

quote:

I hypothetically wonder what the conversation and responses would be like to all of the pros who give themselves to the BDSM community refusing to participate in "lifestyle" events or teaching her hard-earned skills to others because the collective -- folks who have skilld enough to be paid for what they do and run a business doing so -- views THEM as "BDSM hobbyists" or "kinky weekend warriors". My thoughts are that they'd feel like shit too if someone repeatedly invalidated their interests, their passions and their lives.

People who live in glass houses shoudn't toss rocks.

I agree. And for the most part it in my opinion it is those who don't get out in the community but want to give out advice that are the one's always attacking the pro Dommes who do so much for our community.

Sad indeed.

Z-

< Message edited by DarkDaddyZ -- 12/26/2007 1:41:43 PM >

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 3:39:35 PM

MuscleCuteClever

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quote:

In my opinion the flack didn't start until the boom on the net and BDSM websites. But what do I know?

Thanks for pointing this out. I have done a lot of study on this and it turns out that before the internet, as much as the scene would have been smaller, the ratio between Dommes and subs was actually closer and there where more F/m relationships (proportionally).

Since the internet the direction of proliferation has had an affect that further skewed the number to 1:100 that is proffessed at present. Its obvious why this has happened and it has something to do with a lack of face to face contact, if you ask me the internets advantage is also its achilles heel.

Financial Domination started in guess what year?! 1998 when the internet was starting to boom and we all had a 56k modem. Since then it has picked up like wildfire.

I think that there are some extremely poinient reasons as to why it is said to be so very incredibly hard to find a decent male sub. Im afraid that this war between those who want to liberate their sexuality as a human being and those who want money is never going to end. What a pity that the seed in the early days of the scene in the 70's / 80's didnt grow in the way it started.

I think it is a real pity that people cant see what is really actually going on.

I hope this post gets accepted, I know what Im talking about and I think people should see it.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 4:05:07 PM

pandora29

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I just now started following this thread and it is awful how some try to get attention.Blocking them is wonderful and sends a message that stupidity isin't wanted in any form.I have had the phrase"I do not have sex with sub/slaves" for quite a bit and it has stopped many a idiot from contacting Me,but I do get the occassional one and I tell them to read My profile and most of the time things stop there.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 5:10:05 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JordanNYCThank you for this. Thank you for your understanding, and mostly for your ability to actually read. It seems to have missed a few here.

(I actually learned I can't read at the age of 7. Now I just stumble around my local city and lick STOP signs).

Thank you for noticing.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 5:12:25 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

I think this depends on YOUR meaning of prostituttion. If fucking a guy in the ass, pissing in his mouth, making him jerk off and sucking up his own cum is prostitution, then I am exactly that. Arrest me.

Dianna,

I may need to take you in for questioning.

Please report to my office tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 5:30:07 PM

ElaineSubmits

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It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. The laws definining prostitution differ in every jurisdiction. Traditionally, "sex" was defined as penetration, so by that standard most "pro dommes" are not, per se, engaged in prostitution. Many people think of a prostitute as anyone who provides a sexual service for money, so by that standard, it is prostitution, and in some jurisdictions, the law does take a similar definition. I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/26/2007 5:50:40 PM

DiannaVesta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

I think this depends on YOUR meaning of prostituttion. If fucking a guy in the ass, pissing in his mouth, making him jerk off and sucking up his own cum is prostitution, then I am exactly that. Arrest me.

Dianna,

I may need to take you in for questioning.

Please report to my office tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m.

I'm into the chase... come and get me! lol

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/27/2007 12:22:49 AM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits

It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. The laws definining prostitution differ in every jurisdiction. Traditionally, "sex" was defined as penetration, so by that standard most "pro dommes" are not, per se, engaged in prostitution. Many people think of a prostitute as anyone who provides a sexual service for money, so by that standard, it is prostitution, and in some jurisdictions, the law does take a similar definition. I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck.

I likes it. QFT.

Allow me to bring forth the philosophical paradox in all BDSM. I firmly believe the submissive has the Ace of Spades. All the other cards are given and taken at the dominant's will (plus agreed limitations). The submissive can always leave. For that matter, so can the dominant, but it's rare to find dominants feeling abused. (Please hold your 1 in 1,000,000,000 stories).

Like all dominants, pro dommes are limited by that Ace of Spades. D/s couples (here meaning clients and professionals, aswell) silently agree to pretend the dominant is in control. This is why it's called submission. Temporarily submitting one's power to another's.

Silently. It means we don't bring it up. D/s relationships (here not meaning professionals and clients) do this by not talking about it. You rarely see a slave teasing his or her master about having the ultimate power, even though she does.

In professional-client D/s relationships, clients do not brag about their having the ultimate power. By calling the domme a prostitute one is doing the opposite. Calling your (would-be) pro-domme a prostitute is reminding her that her power (as a dominant) is untrue. It's treating the domme like an employee, which is a position of submission, not dominance.

....

.

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RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? - 12/27/2007 12:57:58 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MuscleCuteClever
Financial Domination started in guess what year?! 1998 when the internet was starting to boom and we all had a 56k modem. Since then it has picked up like wildfire.

*shaking head* No, FD didn't start in 1998.

Before the internet came along, magazines and fetish papers (Dominant Mystique, etc) were the place to make your mistress connection. Women would create personals in the back and submit them to a blind box address and be assigned a number that would be placed in the ad. Some ads promised a letter with instructions, some requested a phone number for setting up a meeting, a letter of introduction, a SASE for reply and others required money. Leather historian Viola Johnson takes her traveling library on the road and has copies of many of these mags, including old personals from back in the 60s and 70s where folks used to code their personals so much you'd never guess it was "fetish" unless you knew (kinda like the hanky code only in writing.)

Thinking on it further, I recall some femdom friends of mine talking about a 1950s film about a guy being financially ruined because of his desires for gifting pretty women -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046949/ . Clearly, it's been going on long before the internet came around.

Where DO you get your sources of information??? LOL

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