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Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 1:34:49 PM

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I’ve had mixed feeling regarding this topic for a while now. So I open it up to all of you for your feedback. Let me explain a little further.

When I was 27, I had a male sub my own age who told me that he would find it sacrilegious to penetrate me with his penis, that since he accepted male submission, he realised he gave up his right to ever penetrate another woman, as that would be a form of dominating her. At the time, I was quite perplexed. Since him I met a few men who have a similar perspective, though not so extreme. I don’t necessarily agree with this. And on another level, I don’t disagree entirely.

I’ve reduced men to the state of a toy (either tying them up or making them remain immobile), referring to them as nothing more then a dildo for my pleasure. I’ve also strapped face harnesses with dildos to male & female subs. So far, I still feel in control. But what about straight up fucking? I’m not one to limit myself but I’m trying to reconcile the idea of a man actively fucking me and still retaining control. I know control is a mental thing and the act should never override the dynamic… Anyhow, as I said, I have mixed feelings about this.

This may seem basic for some of you. This might be something you struggle or have struggled with as well. I’m eager to hear your perspectives/suggestions.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 1:56:42 PM

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I'm sure that if you asked 20 different people you would get 30 different answers as to why he/others feel that way, but I'll try to add in some of my own thoughts on the subject. Males are mostly without control when it comes to the ups and downs of their 'organ', even more so when it comes to the deflation it often goes through after it's finished with being 'used'. At least in my experience, a lot of submissive males like to think of if/when/how they climax as being at least partially given up and given along with their submission.

while it is very likely that there is more to it in the extreme case you mentioned about the sub feeling it to be a sin to penetrate you, a lot of the reasoning I think is because of that lack of control and potential to let you down that goes with it. What if it's over before you want it to? what if you are left wanting? Sure these can be overcome by other bodyparts and toys, but the potential disappointment is still there.

An easy way of looking at the fear and worry that is caused by it, is that it's almost like telling a devoted male sub/slave that he's not allowed to cum after helping him deep down into subspace, and then going through a long session of masterbation and denial over and over again... all the while forcing him closer and closer to the edge. Each time he starts to near that peak, he's faced with the potential to fail you, the potential to disappoint you, the potential to take what he wanted to give away.

If the situation comes up again, try asking him if he would feel more comfortable doing it by way of a strapon. Muscle fatigue, uncomfortable positions, pain, and all manner of other things can be overcome (at least for a while) through force of will, but the naughty bishop is completely out of a sub's control.

Anyways, hope that made sense and came out like I hoped it would.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 2:04:48 PM

TrustLoveAlways

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LadyAngelika ...

I too have struggled with this as well. Everyone is going to have a different opinion on the subject and the truth is that there really is no right or wrong answer to this question. I am a very sexual person by nature and I enjoy "fucking" as much as I enjoy anything else that goes along with this lifestyle. When I first became involved in this lifestyle I ran across many that told me that Dommes rarely allow their submissives to have intercourse with them. I always wondered why that was. To me you can still remain in control while having sex with your submissive. For me, when I allow sex, my submissive is always in cuffs and collar. Sometimes I will attach a leash to his balls so that I am controlling how he can move. Then there are times when I will direct his movements with voice commands. At times I will require that they wear nipple clamps. True this is not considered straight up fucking as you described it but it is one way to maintain control. If you want to just let lose and not worry about restraints and what not you could remain in control by simply telling him that if he fails to please you that he will be punished. Or you could say that if he cums before you allow it he will be punished.

I have run into submissive males in the past that believed that they were not worthy to ever be allowed inside their Mistress. I have found that those that usually tell me this have more of a slave mentality. For some it is part of their fantasy to know that they will never be worthy of being inside a Mistress no matter what they do.

JMO ... :)
Patti

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 2:20:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy
while it is very likely that there is more to it in the extreme case you mentioned about the sub feeling it to be a sin to penetrate you, a lot of the reasoning I think is because of that lack of control and potential to let you down that goes with it.

Thanks for your input CuriousPuppy. It’s great to get your perspective on this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustLoveAlways
I too have struggled with this as well. Everyone is going to have a different opinion on the subject and the truth is that there really is no right or wrong answer to this question.

Patti,

I'm hoping to get many, many opinions. In the end, I'll take everything into consideration and figure out what is right for me.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only faced with this dilemma and your suggestions are awesome, thanks.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to TrustLoveAlways)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 3:28:13 PM

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I see you're asking Dominas only. Why not gay Doms or would not the homosexual perspective interest you?

(See the emoticon? That is a joke.)

If you get twenty replies you will get 20 different answers. As a male submissive I would assume I would only get penetration if I was esspecially good. That said, however, It's never my call. If she wants it should I say "No"? Knowing how I feel she might even be amused at my humiliation. might. Maybe even thinking that would be my subconscious trying to get it? Maybe.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 3:39:56 PM

PassionateNights

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An interesting question. i certainly think that so much of this is what is right for the Mistress. So much of what we do here is redifine what a relationship should be without societies preconcieved restrictions. Basically there are no rules, except what we mutuall agree upon.
Sexual penetration has always had a sexually dominant conitation, but it is what we say it is. I can tell you, like many Dominants take council and then decide for yourself.
I can offer a similar situation with a Mistress from years ago. When she allowed me vaginal penetration (she really enjoyed this). From a missionary position she would keep a shot suede flogg in one hand. She controlled my thrusts with her strokes. The tempo was set by her, like a cockswain (hmmm wonder where that word originated). The power of my thrusts were timed with the power of her stroke....
SHE was definitly the one in control. On a few rare occasions when she didn't have the flog, she would just use a finger in my mouth.

it certainly made me a better lover and i am most appreciative of her instruction

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 4:41:46 PM

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I like to fuck. I even like the missionary position a lot (although it's not my favorite). Anatomically I am built in such a way that, believe it or not, doggy style is usually most satisfying for me. How's THAT for a vision of "non-dominance"?

If I am sexually intimate with my property it is because it is what pleases me. I happen to like very rough, animalistic sex (giving and receiving). I see no conflict with my dominance in this. It's what I enjoy and as the dominant it is my prerogative to dictate and even make demands regarding how my enjoyment will be manifested, and what form that will take.

There are few things more stimulating than a partner who can be as rough and animalistic as I am, meet me match for match, and then cave and be submissive when I demand it. This is enjoyment to me...and it IS supposed to be about me.

Besides, if you're (generic "you") my property then your notion of proper etiquette takes a back seat to mine. If your notion of etiquette is such that you refuse to serve me in the way I wish to be served then we are not a match.

NEXT! (as they say).

Food for thought - If we concern ourselves over much with whether or not our pleasure meets someone else's notion of 'dominant' are we not conforming to the BDSM 'norm' and thereby negating (or at least compromising on) not only our non-conformist ideals but also our dominance? For me this is truth.

I need NO ONE'S permission to be the glorious slut that I am, as I see fit.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 5:18:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

I like to fuck. I even like the missionary position a lot (although it's not my favorite). Anatomically I am built in such a way that, believe it or not, doggy style is usually most satisfying for me. How's THAT for a vision of "non-dominance"?

We are built similar in that respect.

quote:

Food for thought - If we concern ourselves over much with whether or not our pleasure meets someone else's notion of 'dominant' are we not conforming to the BDSM 'norm' and thereby negating (or at least compromising on) not only our non-conformist ideals but also our dominance? For me this is truth.
I need NO ONE'S permission to be the glorious slut that I am, as I see fit.

I agree 100% with this. I’m trying to find a way to wrap my mind around it all. Thank you so much for your input. As well as to everyone else posting.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 7:08:49 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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Milady Angelika-

On some levels, I do think that penetration is an act of agression, and can understand the issue that a male submissive might have with it.

On the Other Hand, I remember a female dominant threating me with bodily harm if I didn't penetrate her right then (and off topic, a female submissive made a similar comment recently).

So it comes down to the same damn crux- What do _you_ want? You are, after all, the Dominant, and while (this being a real world where slaves can vote with their feet) one partners needs, desires and particular kinks bear consideration, you're suposed to be driving the dynamic.

There is also the male submissives possible fear of an inadquate performance. While there are various techniques that delay or eliminate the male crisis, they are, IMX, too much work, and no damn fun. If a boy seems concerned with such, I'd sugest demanding that he knock the edge off twice or so before allowing him to serve you more directly. Out side of various ailments, a little practice will get his recycle time down to about nothing, and the resultant erections just last and last (and can be a sort of toment all it's own).

Nothing is more powerful, more wholely and compleatly dominant than a women who takes charge of her own desires and is forthright about them.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 7:11:24 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

I need NO ONE'S permission to be the glorious slut that I am, as I see fit.

Madame-

No ones permission, indeed. But certainly my admiration <g>.

I really must start reading the whole thread before replying to the top post. You always state it so much more clearly than I.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/16/2004 8:48:14 PM

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Joined: 7/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

I like to fuck. I even like the missionary position a lot (although it's not my favorite). Anatomically I am built in such a way that, believe it or not, doggy style is usually most satisfying for me. How's THAT for a vision of "non-dominance"?

If I am sexually intimate with my property it is because it is what pleases me. I happen to like very rough, animalistic sex (giving and receiving). I see no conflict with my dominance in this. It's what I enjoy and as the dominant it is my prerogative to dictate and even make demands regarding how my enjoyment will be manifested, and what form that will take.

There are few things more stimulating than a partner who can be as rough and animalistic as I am, meet me match for match, and then cave and be submissive when I demand it. This is enjoyment to me...and it IS supposed to be about me.

Besides, if you're (generic "you") my property then your notion of proper etiquette takes a back seat to mine. If your notion of etiquette is such that you refuse to serve me in the way I wish to be served then we are not a match.

NEXT! (as they say).

Food for thought - If we concern ourselves over much with whether or not our pleasure meets someone else's notion of 'dominant' are we not conforming to the BDSM 'norm' and thereby negating (or at least compromising on) not only our non-conformist ideals but also our dominance? For me this is truth.

I need NO ONE'S permission to be the glorious slut that I am, as I see fit.

That was the best post I have read in a long time, as I am typing this I cannot stop smiling.

I cannot say that I have ever had a male or female that had this perspective so I cannot offer and practical advice but it sounds like you are getting lots of great food for thought already to me.

MzSuz,

Not only am I animalistic as you so aptly put it but I am certainly a sensation slut to boot which threw a few male and female dominants in my group in to a tizzy of horror and mass speculation when they found out that I actually teach my slaves how to 'Top me' in SM scenes as a part of their service to me. I found it so amusing that at the next event I am going to go dressed as a 'little girl' pig tails and all ... I just love watching people in pain

Tigress

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/17/2004 2:03:40 AM

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I remember hearing someone say once that the vagina consumes the penis. Maybe think of it like that?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/17/2004 6:08:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
So it comes down to the same damn crux- What do _you_ want? You are, after all, the Dominant, and while (this being a real world where slaves can vote with their feet) one partners needs, desires and particular kinks bear consideration, you're suposed to be driving the dynamic.

Ultimately, I will do what pleases me. And I believe every sub I have had would tell you that I had no trouble whatsoever in driving the dynamic. But I also believe that I grow wiser everyday so I have no issue with taking a step back and analysing what I do and the effects of my actions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: albear
I remember hearing someone say once that the vagina consumes the penis. Maybe think of it like that?

Indeed, what a lovely way to think about it albear.

To be quite honest, I personally have never taken issue with being penetrated by a male sub. In fact, I would tell you that in my most recent dynamics, this has been a non-issue. There have been moments when I have told them to fuck me, much in the same way that Lawrence mentioned, threatening punishment if they did not fulfill their obligations. I’ve even, at times, made a “game” (for lack of a better word) out of questioning whether or not they were worthy of entering me. It did make the dynamic very interesting.

I just got to thinking about this whole issue again when a local sub initiated communication with me in the personal ads section of this site. He, of course, was of the opinion that Dommes should not be fucked by their subs. He was very much into cuckolding.

At this point, I simply considered that he and I were not a good match. I’m sure there is a Domme out there with the same opinion as him.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/17/2004 6:05:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Madame-

No ones permission, indeed. But certainly my admiration <g>.

I really must start reading the whole thread before replying to the top post. You always state it so much more clearly than I.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

Naaaa...you do just fine with words...among other things. ;)

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/17/2004 6:09:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss

That was the best post I have read in a long time, as I am typing this I cannot stop smiling.

Well your response has me grinning, too...so thanks for sharing.

quote:

MzSuz,

Not only am I animalistic as you so aptly put it but I am certainly a sensation slut to boot which threw a few male and female dominants in my group in to a tizzy of horror and mass speculation when they found out that I actually teach my slaves how to 'Top me' in SM scenes as a part of their service to me. I found it so amusing that at the next event I am going to go dressed as a 'little girl' pig tails and all ... I just love watching people in pain

Tigress

Too funny. Nothing like taking people's preconceived notions and using them to shake it up a bit. hahahaha

Perhaps we were twins in another life. ;)

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Tigresss)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/17/2004 8:49:12 PM

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Angelika-
I think that (in response to your original post) that it would have to depend on the dynamic. Does the sub entertain rape fantasies? With a Mistress? Is he comfortable with having sex with his mistress? Do you want to have sex with this particular sub? It could enhance the dynamic with certain subs but could prove to be a relationship killer in others. You don't want to upset the power balance in their heads.
IMNSHO
As Always
Berlin

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/18/2004 1:31:58 AM

MistressZanthia

Posts: 88
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
Status: offline

Good topic. I've wrestled with this one myself. And I've found fun an interesting ways to circumvent that possibility of him ever feeling "out of his submissive head space" about intercourse.

A few fun ideas:
Mummification and CBT scene (if you like your cock wrapped up a bit in a little rope, I know I do), saran wrap him also (complete mummy and lay him flat) and as you've done before, treat him like your large "plastic" dildo.

Lock him to the cross or in a swing and have him from behind all you want. Of course this ones also fun with those sensual teasy scenes with a blindfold/hood and several different sensory overload sensations first (just to remind who's boss?), then just back onto him for the real surprise (guaranteed he won't lose headspace) LOL. But watch it, he may let loose too fast, as ever, no cummin' without permission.

Or for those times when you just want it, without the scene, I just always take the top and make sure he holds still for me. When he can't control movement it helps, and a diatribe of his place whispered in his ear simulaneously or some other fun Femdom fantasy while you fuck him will do wonders of reminding him too, just get into his head. If it helps, bind his cock in rope painfully tight and slap a condom over the "works" and make it hurt so good, he'll never doubt he's a toy... yumola...

I don't believe there's a dominant feeling implied in his part any time I ever "take" my sub that way. Or he's never admitted to feeling that way, he knows his entire body is mine to enjoy. YAY!!
Edited for a blonde moment.

< Message edited by MistressZanthia -- 7/18/2004 2:06:45 AM >

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/18/2004 5:26:44 AM

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quote:

If a boy seems concerned with such, I'd sugest demanding that he knock the edge off twice or so before allowing him to serve you more directly.

topcat,

Good point! If I've been chaste for a while (define "while" yourselves) I will cum in a very short time. Serious chastity play and penetration need something like your fix or it just won't work.

And here is where I'll get roasted alive. Knowing that is the Domina's responsibilty.

If we are getting hot and heavy and she unlocks me and says, "Get in me now!" Am I supposed to say, "One minute, my Mistress," as I beat off furiously?

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/18/2004 1:14:32 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

she unlocks me and says, "Get in me now!" Am I supposed to say, "One minute, my Mistress," as I beat off furiously?

Iwill-

There's a really funny image in my head now...

Well, She's the domme- she should think of these things. And of course, if she doesn't, you'll pay<eg>. I'd think some mention of the imminance would be called for. and of course, if it has been that long, you should recycle pretty quickly.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 7/18/2004 1:15:33 PM >

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to iwillserveu)

RE: Dommes & penetration - 7/18/2004 1:20:32 PM

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Hello,

From the opposite perspective, I personally enjoy the hell out of it when I am woken up sleeping, pushed into the closet and orally pleasured when I get home from work, or having her naughty bits straddling my face when I wake up.

While I suppose I could get criticism that I am being "raped," I dont really give a good gawd damn what anybody else thinks about my sex life apart from my partner and I.

I am driving the dynamic, so by all means...

Just me, could be wrong...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to topcat)

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