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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 2:49:19 PM

kittinSol

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Thanks for the informative replies.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:02:09 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Slaveboy, good points!
And what about the British flag?
That would "offend" many Americans of Irish descent after (their) ancesters being under the oppression of the British Empire for hundreds of years!

Yeah Popeye, I never even thought about the Irish. The Union Jack is the British Flag; I should have mentioned that. The Irish were subjected to essentially serfdom all the way up until 1921 under the Union Jack (British Flag).

Honestly, a flag is just a flag. I was firmly against that flag burning amendment. I think that's just moronic. If someone wants to burn the American flag or wipe his ass with it, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't take away from what that flag means to me. People are just infantile now a days. I just don't get all this outrage over stupid shit, when there is so many other things in the world that need our attention.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:16:39 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
What do you make of the above?

That history is not a serious subject for most people. They prefer jingoistic propaganda.

The Confederate flag is no more and quite possibly less racist than Abraham Lincoln.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:18:37 PM

kittinSol

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Okay, I got that part - you know that I don't really care either way, don't you? I'd still love to read the opinions of those posters who don't like the flag. But perhaps there aren't any?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:26:38 PM

DomKen

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I'm betting this won't actually be the actual flag of the CSA but will be instead the made up racist symbol.

The actual CSA flags:
http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCnatl.htm

If someone wants to fly the Stars and Bars or the other CSA flags I'm sure most people will be fine with it. The made up racist symbol OTOH...

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:27:20 PM

Darkened1

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And would the same apply to Native American Indians who were oppressed under the flag of the United States of America?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 3:47:23 PM

camille65

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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The compromise left some flag opponents angry and vandals sprayed red paint on the proposed monument site, which was quickly cleaned up. Six of South Carolina's seven black Senators voted in favor of the compromise, while only four of twenty-six black members of the House of Representatives did. And, DAVID WILKINS, Speaker of the South Carolina House: I think that's unfortunate. I think it sends a - at best - a mixed message, and I think even a bad message. If black members didn't vote for the bill that takes the flag off the dome, I think that's hard to explain. Now I am not from the south but my mothers family is so I have no vested interest in this aside from historical. The above leads me to believe that the ones insisting that it is a racial symbol of hate towards blacks are a lesser group than it seems.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:01:59 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I thought this was interesting: it's an excerpt from Camille's link.

quote:

RONALD WALTERS: Well, I think the flag is a symbol of the most terroristic and oppressive period in the history of black people in America. It brings back memories of the pain and the degradation of our people. And to that extent, you know, it's really interesting to me to hear people talk about the various manifestations of that flag. That's really beside the point. The constitution of the South is really beside the point. What's important about that is what was done, the culture, the civilization that meted out the most brutal punishment of the people you could imagine, and so that is what that flag means to most black Americans, I would assume.

quote:

ROGER WILKINS: I can understand when Shelby Foote refers to his great grandfather with warmth and affection, and I've a great grandfather too. He's buried someplace in northern Mississippi. And he was a slave all his life. Our history is often presented to us as a triumphal march from Jamestown to Oahu, I guess, and it's all been glorious and wonderful, but our history is full of pain and loss too. And this kind of debate brings out everybody's pain and - white people lost and were injured by the terribleness of slavery and surely black people were - and we've got to find some kind of middle ground to understand each other because we can't continue to use our common history or bits of it to continue to injure each other. That is not the way to march toward a common destiny.

What do you make of the above?

That being the case.. we should not display the American flag nor a Cross.. being both were/are used during the time of oppression and in KKK meetings.

.. and those darned Always pads! "Have a happy period" my ass! Obviously they never suffered like women do! I'm offended that they make light of our situation every month.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:14:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I thought it said Canadian flag at first and I thought that'll be funny. I thought it was a Canadian separatist group in the U.S.

Are they from Montreal?

I'm..... leery everytime I see a Stars and Bars. I know far too many who see it as a "fuck you" to black people.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:16:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Yeah. No more British flags around me!

OK I actually think the union jack is a cool ass looking flag. I need to get one for my collection.

They really are, Irish, I agree.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:24:08 PM

SummerWind

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

So, what exactly does the confederate flag symbolise, in this day and age?

Only 10% of Southernors owned slaves. It wasn't the defining issue of the American Civil War.

Interesting.....What was the defining issue?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:34:09 PM

kittinSol

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Fast reply - well, after a little bit of digging around I discovered that John McCain Himself doesn't particularly like the confederate flag.

quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- One of the loudest boos from the audience tonight came as an Internet questioner from Philadelphia asked if South Carolina "should be free to fly the Confederate flag from state buildings."

The question was directed to Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, who had trouble with this question during the 2000 primary season.

Campaigning in South Carolina in 2000, McCain initially said the flag was "a symbol of heritage" and a decision to remove it was a state issue.

He later changed his mind, and explained his turnaround: "I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles."

After intense negotiations, the Confederate flag in 2000 was removed from State Capitol dome but now flies over a monument to the Confederacy on the capitol grounds.

In tonight's debate, McCain said "I still believe that it should not have flown over the Capitol, and I was wrong when I said that it was a state issue... But now I think it has been settled, and I think it's time that we all moved on on this issue."

CNN

Or if he likes it, he hides it well. Why do you think he flip-flopped so radically on the flag problem? And if it's of so little importance, why can't people let it go and work towards finding a new symbol of unity for the South? Genuinely curious.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 4:45:50 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

As long as a piece of fabric or a word holds power over a group, those persons will always be "enslaved". Rise above it.. get over it..move forward. Quit giving it power.

I've heard this before, that folks should rise above it...and one of the better replies is "sure, when you get over losing the war!"

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:00:12 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Or if he likes it, he hides it well. Why do you think he flip-flopped so radically on the flag problem? And if it's of so little importance, why can't people let it go and work towards finding a new symbol of unity for the South? Genuinely curious.

Kittin, McCain isn't a Southernor. I don't expect him to understand. I don't understand the French's resistance to English words becoming part of the language. We incorporate words from all sorts of different languages in English. But I am not a Frenchman. I don't expect to understand.

By the way, please don't answer in French. I have to paste it into a translator everytime. *smiles*

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:01:44 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Or if he likes it, he hides it well. Why do you think he flip-flopped so radically on the flag problem? And if it's of so little importance, why can't people let it go and work towards finding a new symbol of unity for the South? Genuinely curious.

hes a politician and talks outa both sides of his mouth? probably would flip flop again tomorrow if he thought it would get him votes in november....

as for why they cant find a new symbol, i suspect its because most folks feel like me-i dont need a new symbol.....im happy with this one......its been taken off the ga flag already, in a late night session of votesby the politicians, after the guvnah had sworn he would let the people decide. he wasnt re-elected.

its emotional i know.....ive spent my entire life as....well....as me.....i can only speak for me.....it pisses me off that folks can take away something that i love.....i am not sure how long slavery was the norm here, but were gonna pay for the sins of our forefathers for much longer than it happened i bet.

i just wonder if 200 years from now, will the ones that choose to still swear they cant be productive members of society because of slavery, because of being held down by whitey, because of the flag, all that jazz. at some point, all colors are going to have to accept responsibility for where they are in life......but it aint gonna happen in my lifetime.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:08:08 PM

kittinSol

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French is a far more rigid language than English. There's a venerable institution over there, l'Académie française , that actually regulates the use of the language and authorises (or doesn't) new words. It's a bit of a laugh, but it's powerful - it bathes in traditions.

Do you mean that some Southerners are attached to the flag as a symbol the same way the Académie française is preventing the French language from evolving?

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:27:28 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Do you mean that some Southerners are attached to the flag as a symbol the same way the Académie française is preventing the French language from evolving?

We are attached to it. The South has been losing it's uniqueness for a long time now. A lot of Yankees have moved down here in the past 50 years. We have a great climate, and it's much cheaper to live here than it is in New York or Boston. I get snickers and cute little remarks all the time about my accent from people that live in the South. Honestly, imagine getting picked at in your native land for having your native accent. It's unbelievably annoying.

I don't even consider Dallas, Atlanta, Nashville, or the entire state of Florida to be culturally Southern anymore because of all the Yankees that live there. I am not hung up on it, but it is a bit annoying. I have to watch these people as they order sugar for their grits! You don't eat grits like oatmeal, dammit. It just irritates the shit out of me. The Confederate Battle Flag is harmless. It's a way for Southernors to keep a connection to our roots. What is wrong with wanting to preserve your culture and history?

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 6/2/2008 5:29:48 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:29:41 PM

Archer

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Odds are good that even though it's a historical society type group they will muck it up and put up a flag that while it looks similar is out of proportion to the historicly accurate Battleflag of the Confedracy.

The reason the battleflag has been meaningfull is that it was a flag the troops fought under rather than the official flag of the Confederate States of America. So it is connected to the troops rather than the politics. Thus it was originally ment to be seperate from the politics and a symbol recognizing the sacrifices the men who fought.

Ever notice how connected the south s even today to the military traditions? it's part of the heritage, part of the societal values to honor the military veterans.
So it's a tough thing to remove from the southern mind and heart. regardless of ow it gets perverted by folks seeking to make it something it was never supposed to be about.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:31:28 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

What is wrong with wanting to preserve your culture and history?

There's nothing wrong with it, but only you know why you hold on to these traditions - me, I think most traditions belong in museums. Sometimes, traditions slowly erode because they become irrelevant to modern life. In the end, if something's got to die, it will.

Time will tell.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/2/2008 5:33:00 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkened1

And would the same apply to Native American Indians who were oppressed under the flag of the United States of America?

Yes, there's that too!
See, whatever flag there is someone's not going to like it!

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