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Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:11:55 PM

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Akasha's "Submissives who lie to impress you or be compatible with you" thread got me thinking. In the field of psychology, it's generally accepted that all people lie. For the purpose of this thread, please, lets accept this as truth. (Now there's an oxymoron... it's true that all people lie. :-)

So... given that all people lie, what then is an acceptable lie and what is not? Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts.

As a person who has been in a number of long-term relationships and as someone who once believed in compete honesty, I can now attest that there are indeed times when it is appropriate not to tell your partner everything you are thinking. And yes, there are also times when it is appropriate to outright lie. While this may sound like a contradiction, I do believe that honesty is a cornerstone and an essential building block of any relationship. Perhaps I've already tainted the discussion by adding this precursor from my own experiences, but I hope not. :-)

Elan.

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:33:06 PM

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At times I believe there are instances that it is ok to tell white lies. When your Mistress may be bloated and asks if she looks fat, certianly to spare her feelings you would tell her that she does not look fat, and in fact looks radiant!

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:33:18 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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I don't deal well with lies, even "white" ones. The fastest way to earn yourself an express ticket out of my life, with extreme prejudice, is to lie to me. Omission counts. In my case, it is never acceptable to lie to me. I would rather hear unpleasant truth. I also do my best not to lie to others. I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:35:48 PM

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Hmm, an interesting one to try to tackle, this one is.

First off, I don't believe it is right to lie to people, regardless of the situation, but yes, I've done it in the past and probably will at some point do it again...

I'd have to say the most common type of situation where I'm tempted to tell a fib is the one where my direct honesty is (in my view) going to exacerbate an already bad situation. A good example would be a scenario where telling someone the honest truth is likely going to drag me into a dispute I feel I don't have any business being involved it. Again, I don't feel its right from a moral stand-point, but nevertheless, I know I've done it.

As far as lying to others to lessen or deny my responsibility when I screw up, I avoid this like the plague. Now that I'm in my 30s and have lived a little, I can see that not being honest about my misdeeds, mistakes and ignorance is not the way to go. It complicates things and causes hurt, and I don't want any part of that. I'd rather suffer the consequence of "owning up" than let someone down or have someone lose respect for me because I got caught lying to them or to someone they care about.

All this being said, I find in life it is much easier to just not behave in a way where you end up having to make a decision whether or not you're going to have to tell a big fat lie. It is just so much easier than the alternatives...

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts on the matter, maybe I'll pop in again later and add to it... Or desperately try to back-peddle out of what I've already fessed-up to....

Edited for a major typo!

< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 8/18/2008 3:40:10 PM >

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:38:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

...I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible.

...well put and much more concise than my ramblings.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:42:15 PM

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I try to create a safety net where I don't get upset because I have heard the truth, even if I don't like that truth. I can deal with reality but cannot deal with a lie. If I am bloated, looking like a hag... I darn well know it and typically wouldn't ask! lol But if I did... I would know the truth and would exepct the truth. I can't see even a little white lie doing any good. I can't think of one I would make an exception for and would personally want the truth no matter what it is. I want to know that when I ask something or am told something, I can trust in the answer or given word. If someone has to tip toe around me... there is a problem. When someone starts determining how they need to protect me or what is an okay white lie with me, they are projecting and manipulating a situation, I most likely am not going to be happy about. One white lie about weight leads to another white lie about something else and leads to situations where the relationship isn't what one thinks it is. No thanks.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 8/18/2008 3:48:10 PM >

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:45:44 PM

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Lying takes many forms. While I would never accept a brazen lie, I understand when deceit must be used. I feel confident saying every response here will say "I don't want to be lied to" because no one does. Deception is different. When she spends the day buying materials to make cookies for me, and answers "What'd you do today?" with "I went shopping - got new panties for you, Master." That is, technically, a lie. I see it as deceit.

So I am in favor of lying to preserve a nice surprise.

Sometimes extra subtly is needed in regards to her being my property. She is always My Pet, as such, she obey. In the vanilla world, we keep it more private than at home, as many do. This is deceitful, but not a problem.

Deceit vs. lying: I consider deceit to be a lie which allows for a greater purpose, and is explained/debriefed in the end.

Another note about lying: I've taken great strides to ensure My Pet understands that telling the truth will never make me angry. I have promised (and made good on that promise) to stifle any emotional response and deal with things calmly. If anyone expects and desires pure honesty from their submissive, they must provide a truth-friendly environment..

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 3:54:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

If anyone expects and desires pure honesty from their submissive, they must provide a truth-friendly environment..

THAT is a very profound statement and cuts across more than just bdsm relationships. To ask for honesty and than flip out is a slippery slope to emotional abuse and that is an ugly, ugly place.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:00:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

... If I am bloated, looking like a hag... I darn well know it and typically wouldn't ask! lol But if I did... I would know the truth and would exepct the truth. I can't see even a little white lie doing any good....

Wow, that's such a Twix moment...

Hmm, perhaps it is a short-coming of mine, but I just could not say to a woman "Yes you are bloated and look like a hag."... Uggh, in those instances though, I am pretty good at adding some creatve spin to the truth, very quickly changing the subject, or telling a really bad joke...

..

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:04:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E2Sweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

... If I am bloated, looking like a hag... I darn well know it and typically wouldn't ask! lol But if I did... I would know the truth and would exepct the truth. I can't see even a little white lie doing any good....

Wow, that's such a Twix moment...

Hmm, perhaps it is a short-coming of mine, but I just could not say to a woman "Yes you are bloated and look like a hag."... Uggh, in those instances though, I am pretty good at adding some creatve spin to the truth, very quickly changing the subject, or telling a really bad joke... ..

The thing is... it isn't fair to put someone in that position, thus... my not asking! lol I think it might be best to find a way to avoid the mirror and just get some cuddles on a rough day. Works better all the way around I think. lol

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:10:54 PM

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There are some things that I know Ma'am has held back from me... because they were none of my business; or She knows it would make me stress and worry, and frustrated because there's no way I could do anything about it. But, actually lying? As devoted to Her as I am and as much as I love Her... I'm not sure that I'd be able to get over that. On the other hand, from all I know of Her; lying isn't in Her nature. Maybe being vicious and brutally honest; but not lying.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:15:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
The thing is... it isn't fair to put someone in that position, thus... my not asking!...

I agree it would be a tad unfair... and wayyyy awkward to be on the shorter end of the kneel and be hit with that type of question!

Actually this unfair question scenario is something I really haven't given any though to until today. I suppose that speaks directly to my noob-iness on this end of the D/s dynamic...

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:18:56 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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I believe that it is wrong to lie -- by commission or omission. That being said, there are times when a question is asked in such a way that it almost begs the lie... I try very hard not to set my servants up that way, but I will admit to occasionally being less than happy about hearing something that I didn't want to hear.

Lying, to either my Darling or myself, will end the relationship, if it comes to light. The reason for this is because we offer a profound level of trust in opening ourselves up to allow a servant into our lives. If that trust is breached, it may be mended, but it will never truly, completely heal -- and without that level of trust, the way we live becomes untenable.

Now -- I will throw a bit of a monkey-wrench into this mix. If I ask a direct question, I expect a direct, honest answer. However, I do -not- necessarily think that it is proper to say every little thought that comes into one's mind. I believe that discretion in sharing one's private thoughts on any number of topics is not lying -- it is pragmatic social interaction. Especially if an individual asks me a question that is based on my -opinion-, I will, depending on the circumstances, decide to be substantially more evasive or less direct than they might hope in my response. Because words can cause so much harm if handled indiscriminately, I do not consider withholding one's opinion, or modifying that opinion to be less hurtful to be lying. I will not -change- my opinion, or pretend that I have an opinion opposite of the one that I have -- but I may defer expressing -any- opinion, or may phrase my opinion in such a way that it does not result in alienation of social interaction, and this I do not consider to be deceitful or lying (whether I do it, my Darling does it, one of our servants does it, or a casual or close acquaintance or friend does it).

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 4:46:47 PM

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Lying and sinning by omission don't fly well with me, I think partially because of my inability to read social cues and process the nuances that would allow for "little white lies" to be socially acceptable.

I got hurt badly by a little white lie recently, or rather a string of them, and when I spoke up about how wrong it was to have been misled the response was that little white lies are socially acceptable so I have nothing to bitch about. I did not buy that explanation, I still do not buy that explanation, and I am wary of people who do. A lie is a lie, big or small, it has the potential to hurt somebody and therefore is bad juju.

I never forget a liar, either. To me, no, no form of lying is acceptable in a relationship or otherwise, nor is it terribly forgivable.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 5:23:19 PM

MzMia

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I am sure I am the odd duck {as usual} but here is my answer.

On the internet, with total strangers, or even with people that I don't know well, like or
even trust, I don't feel like I owe them ANYTHING.

I have my age listed at 98 on here.
Once you talk to me and I know you, I will tell you my age and a whole lot more.

I have nothing against those that want to tell all, show all and let it all hang out for the world to see.
But, that should not be the expectations for everyone.
I can't answer the question, "Is it ever acceptable to lie?"
But I can say this "If you live your life thinking people will only tell you the truth, you are in denial."

< Message edited by MzMia -- 8/18/2008 5:28:48 PM >

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 5:28:03 PM

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Ahh, but what of the age old question: "does this (insert article of clothing) make me look fat?" Men, little word of advice, if a woman in your life asks you this, run away, quickly. There is no right answer.

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 5:32:06 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

Ahh, but what of the age old question: "does this (insert article of clothing) make me look fat?" Men, little word of advice, if a woman in your life asks you this, run away, quickly. There is no right answer.

LOL
True story here youngsubgeoff.
I was so convinced that many men were so damn clueless, that about 20 years ago
I went through a phase with my boyfriends, that I would actually write down phrases they should say to me often!

Yes, I have always been different.
This list included things like this:
You are the most beautiful woman in the world.
I will always love you.
You are the smartest and best woman I will ever meet.
Etc.
I always enjoyed hearing them say these things, even though I had to write down what their
dumb asses should say to me!

IF they went a long time without mentioning a few phrases, I would ask if they lost the "list".

< Message edited by MzMia -- 8/18/2008 5:36:06 PM >

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 5:40:35 PM

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MzMia, you have figured out that most of us are smarter than that, right?

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 5:43:57 PM

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Ok, I have issues... I'm partially color blind and have almost no sense of smell. So if what I am wearing doesn't go together or if I smell bad I would much rather have someone close to me tell me the brutal truth then to go out into public like that.

As far as holidays are concerned... we don't ask each other what they got us and they don't have to lie. If I'm asked my reply is generally... do you really want to know?

Jewel

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RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? - 8/18/2008 6:04:48 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

MzMia, you have figured out that most of us are smarter than that, right?

No geoff, that has really not been the case.
Many of the men I have talked to, really do NOT know what
to say to impress me.

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Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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