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Subtle Abuse - 12/25/2008 9:10:19 PM   
SimplyMichael


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In another thread, the discussion drifted toward the discussion of what is and is not abusive.  I am quite familiar with this subject for a variety of reasons, both personal and professional.

My personal reasons is that in the past, while I never physically hurt any of my partners I did use my anger to control them.  I didn't often break things but I did at time as well as the classic pounding fists onto and into things.  At my size, when I rage, it is a sight to behold and one my lovers who are tiny in comparison to learned not to ask certain questions...thus controlling them with fear.  I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.  You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.

I glanced around for a decent link to the DSM IV but couldn't find one but I am sure someone can post it.
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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/25/2008 9:32:22 PM   
beargonewild


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It seems that even the subject for many people of what constitutes abuse and what doesn't becomes a point of contention it seems. Yet abuse does show up in a multitude of forms and ranges from subtle to outright displays. I see many people forget to see that any websites which lists signs of abuse, they are potential signs and usually many signs are a definite indication of the problem. After doing a search online, I noticed that all the official sites geared towards fighting abuse list the same indicators. It is up to people qualified to interpret correctly when it applies to a person. Yet we can not ignore the stories that survivors of abuse have to tell and these stories are just as valid.
  For many of us who lived through abuse, we tend to be overly sensitive to this subject, yet we also recognize the early symptoms because we did survive and are about to look back in hindsight with 100% clarity. A person who has anger issues may very well not be an abuser though their behavior is a cause for concern. In my eyes, that is a risk I am not willing to take.


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/25/2008 9:40:25 PM   
Rayne58


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My ex husband had a bad temper, he never laid a hand on me or the kids but I have seen him kick and half strangle a sheep by standing on its throat when it wouldn't keep still to be shorn.  He did this several times over the years. 
I have seen him give a dog a severe hiding....it limped for days.
It was intimidating and the one time I spoke up about it I virtually got told to shut up and mind my own business  

His other abuse was as the thread title says...subtle.  Putdowns.  Undermining of self esteem.  It got so that I was afraid to try anything new for fear of failure.  I still have problems with this.

I left him in 2002.  My heart was in my mouth as I said that I had had enough and I was leaving.  He tried to tell me that he loved me - he'd never said it before, in 23 years of marriage. 

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/25/2008 9:51:53 PM   
beargonewild


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Yes...or being told you're not good enough, smarten up and act like an adult (when your 8 yrs old),  being constantly told why can't you be good! My fav was having a relative who lived with us for 3 yrs, always knocking me down and then laugh and ask if I walked much! Then got to fearing bedtime as we shared the attic as an extra large sleeping area and I never knew when I'd feel his hand under my covers, or he'd be lying on top of his bed reading a magazine in his underwear while he'd rub himself and then start talking to me. Yep, childhood was hell! 

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 12/25/2008 9:52:30 PM >


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/25/2008 9:56:19 PM   
bamabbwsub


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I think more people are apt to recognize physical abuse; the emotional abuse -- the "subtle" abuse that has been described thus far -- is much harder to pinpoint, especially in BDSM situations where degradation and humiliation are often a desired part of play.  I think that some people (men, especially, as that has been my experience) perceive submission/obedience/compliance/desire to please/whatever as weakness and they try to exploit that to their advantage. 

Like Rayne58, I was also married to a man who, although he never hurt my physically, hurt me in many ways emotionally, using putdowns and attacking what little self-esteem I had at the time.  Because of his treatment, I do not like "name-calling" during play (and certainly during non-play). 

For me, if someone displays any "overblown" signs of anger -- hitting animals (ugh...I'd have to kill him), walls, breaking things, etc. -- is a strong signal to me to stay well away.  Same goes for verbal abuse; not acceptable.  However, the experiences that I had have made me into a much stronger person.  Oh, and oddly enough, whenever I actually stood up to the ex and fought back, he couldn't backpeddle fast enough.  


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 3:54:49 AM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

In another thread, the discussion drifted toward the discussion of what is and is not abusive.  I am quite familiar with this subject for a variety of reasons, both personal and professional.

My personal reasons is that in the past, while I never physically hurt any of my partners I did use my anger to control them.  I didn't often break things but I did at time as well as the classic pounding fists onto and into things.  At my size, when I rage, it is a sight to behold and one my lovers who are tiny in comparison to learned not to ask certain questions...thus controlling them with fear.  I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.  You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.

I glanced around for a decent link to the DSM IV but couldn't find one but I am sure someone can post it.

Lets break this down into two seperate items if you don't mind Michael.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.

Now I do not see this as poor coping skills, but rather a means of letting off steam which could feasibly influence detrimentally the rest of your play for that time period. I also apply this to other walks of life and have recommended patients/clients to go and get a load of disused crockery from an op-shop to break when required, or use a punching bag to release negative energy unless you have some hard physical work in which you can channel that energy.

You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.
You need to find alternatives and go to the above. Partners of any ilk need to understand that this is not personal but you releasing frustration or tension etc in a sane and safe manner.



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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:46:04 AM   
Lynnxz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.



Somehow humble doesn't really seem to fit in this sentence. 

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 5:57:20 AM   
DesFIP


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Like Rayne, the constant put downs caused learned helplessness. I learned that no matter what I did, I was wrong, so it was safer never to do anything.

The problems left over into this relationship are that I am still relatively passive. It takes a perfect day for me to initiate sexual contact because I'm so afraid of being rejected meanly. I'm afraid of anticipatory service for fear of guessing wrong as to what he might like and being shot down as a result.

The scars left are many and longlasting. All from verbal and emotional abuse.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 6:57:20 AM   
IronBear


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I agree that long term put downs are destructive. At the end of my second marriage of thirteen years I was in a no win situation where by, had I won $50,000,000 and didn’t share it I would be a bastard. If I shared it I would be wrong and must be getting reward to leave the marriage. If I gave it all to her I’d be a fool.. That we both were earning a large income didn’t matter it was simply the way it was with was one of the reasons we divorced. I see too many people with deep emotional and psychological scars from shuch treatment and not just within the kink sub culture either.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:16:16 AM   
stella41b


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This was how I was raised by my parents together with emotional manipulation and emotional control, beatings and neglect. I have spent over 30 years trapped not just in a body that I neither need or want, but prevented from finding out who I really am or what I'm about through my own fears, apprehensions and lack of any sense of self.

I started transitioning or trying to transition through the gender reassignment process in 1998, and that transition continues.. but it's the after effects of the above which are still hampering me and holding me back and which today, as I write these words I am still dealing with. Was I ever loved by my parents? I don't know, and never will because they are both now dead. The concept of thinking that I could ever be someone who is loved is a recent one, it came from my years of success in Polish theatre, and I am working towards that same success as me, Stella. Yes, there were people in the past who told me that they loved me, but it wasn't me they loved, but the image of me that I presented. The real me was always hidden deep inside me, and there was a time when lying, cheating, miseleading, keeping secrets and deceiving was a better way for me to be in a relationship. But you cannot have or even hope to enjoy any relationship which isn't based on honesty, truth, and openness.

This explains why I have always been a service submissive, and it is these relationships in which I could be Stella, open, honest, myself, which were the ones which were more successful. There was never any love of the common kind in these relationships because I never asked for it, and I never believed or understood that I could ever be worthy of someone's most treasured feelings. Even today people tell me how brilliant and wonderful I am, how warm, caring, talented, but there are some days when I just cannot believe them, and these are the loneliest days of all.

And all through, all through those years I have carried so much anger, so much bitterness, so much frustration, so much resentment, seething and caustic, burning deep within. And way back I have done things and committed acts of abuse, been emotionally manipulative, and have responded to people much in the same way as my parents responded to me. And knowing this and seing what I was doing to other people hurt me, it cut me right to the bone, because all I have ever wanted in life is to find myself and be myself, and to be accepted, understood, respected and loved.

To me my views here are very clear.. not only can there be no place for abuse in BDSM, but there can be no place for anger either. Anger is the most destructive and traumatic of human weaknesses, together with bitterness, and the only children of these two parents are fear, hatred and conflict. However anger comes itself from fear, and what is fear? Fear is nothing than an emotional reaction to what is not known and not understood.

However you can pick any emotion or feeling, anything you can feel, anything you can think, anything you can express, it can be love, hatred, anger, warmth, kindness, apathy, sadness, whatever it doesn't matter, for any emotion or feeling can be either positive or negative based on the choice of intent and energy used to express that feeling, thought or emotion. This is the first and most fundamental principle of magic, as stated in the Qabala of Alastair Crowleigh, in that the energy you project out from you is the energy you get back.

BDSM and WIITWD both require interaction between people, it has much to do with the energy flow between people, and I associate that energy of BDSM and WIITWD to be positive energy. However in order to be able to project out and transmit that positive energy you need to have discipline and control of your own mind and body, and to be able to control your own mind over your body, 'mind over matter' as it were. On the basis of this reasoning I base my view that there is no place for anger within BDSM or WIITWD. None at all. This is why the 'D' in BDSM stands for discipline.

Anger is negative energy where passion is positive energy, resentment can become drive and determination, and any destructive or negative emotion or feeling can easily become constructive or creative with the right intention and flow of positive energy. All you need to be able to do is to channel that energy, discipline your mind to focus, to conentrate, and to project that energy and channel it outwards.

My own way is to choose freedom, and that means freedom from attachments and possessions, material possessions, physical attachments, attachments to people, and so on. However in becoming free I also became responsible, and I understood that it wasn't my parents who had kept me in this situation, it was me. In choosing to accept this responsibility I was making a choice, in choosing freedom I was making a choice, and I realized that I could keep on making choices and these choices constitute my freedom.

Part of that freedom is freedom from having expectations from other people. I have taken on a very frugal, almost missionary type lifestyle, I accept that my life as a transgendered female is always going to be somewhat difficult, I accept that not everyone is going to understand me, accept me, but I also accept that this could be true not just because I happen to be transgendered, it could be for one of many other reasons.

This sense of freedom is very important to me, especially as I am in my early forties, and only just becoming myself in life. At least half of my life is already gone, or it might even be the case that almost all of my life has gone, who knows? All I know is that I have no more time to waste on anger, bitterness, personal conflicts, hatred, confrontations and playing the role of victim. I am not a victim, my past and my life has brought many benefits to my inner nature and character, I am no longer afraid, of anyone or anything, I am a survivor.

I live in the here and now, I cannot continue living in my past, because that only drags me down and the voices from the past have proven on many occasions that they can undermine my personal self-confidence and feelings of self-worth. I cannot live in the future, for to do so would be foolish. I can only live in the here and now, and what I do for others is unconditional, my kindness, my friendship and my love. It is that way because I am choosing to make it that way, and in helping others through this I am also helping myself.

But I am human, I am fallible, I make mistakes, I fail, but failure for me is just an attempt which hasn't been successful. I have the choice to try again, or to try something different.

To me, if you stop and think about it, anger is just a way of demanding attention and saying 'look at me, I'm hurting'. Okay... and? You see there is not one person here or alive today who hasn't been hurt, we have all suffered, we have all been afraid, we have all been deprived somewhere of something in our lives, we have all experienced loss, heartache, pain, and fear.

Personally I believe that the most powerful sentence in the English language is a short one of three words - I love you. Is there someone here who does not want to hear those words addressed to them? But if saying those words can have such an effect on someone, then what about the action, the gesture, that shows someone you love them and convinces them that they are loved? Is that not something which is very powerful? This is something comes from inside you, it costs nothing, and you are able to give as much of this to other people, as often as you wish. Is this not something which is very beautiful?

I am no different from any of you, no better, no worse, and I have that choice. So do you.


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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:27:30 AM   
kiwisub12


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i was married to a man who by the time we divorced had me dreading his coming home every night because i knew that he would start criticising as soon as he hit the door. Everything - from my body size, how i dressed, the size of my vagina, my sexual prowess - or lack there of, how the house was kept, my shopping habits, how i did the laundry, what the kids were wearing etc etc etc.

I KNEW it was all my fault. I was brain washed into trying to fix everything, so everything was my responsibility - including his anger and unhappiness. "I didn't make him happy".
As if i could.

It took me three years of therapy and 10 years of solitude for me to get to a space where i could even think about trusting a man with my heart and mind again. Subtle - and not so subtle - abuse is incidious, creeps in when not expected and sticks into the small spaces of your brain where you don't see it, and if you are like me, you buy into it hook, line and sinker.
It could be something as simple as destroying a happy mood with a well placed comment - over and over again, so you learn to keep your happiness hidden. It could be something as dramatic as throwing a chair - and no, he didn't ever hit me.     ....    It would have been easier if he had - i would have known exactly what to do for that.  But if it is just comments - like - "this house looks like we live in a trailer park" ( i haven't ever been in a trailer park, but i was pretty sure it wasn't a compliament) - is that abuse, and if it is , is it enough to destroy a marriage of X number of years?

Subtle abuse is the slow, sneaky abuse, that accumulates over a period of time, until the abused person is beaten down , and no longer knows if he/she is culpable or not.

Was i responsible for my x's abuse?  To a degree, yes. I should have smacked him over the head the first time he made a nasty comment - but he also chose me because i wasn't that sort of person. I was sweet and complient, and a definite people pleaser.

anyway, i lived with subtle abuse for more years than i care to admit - and survived it - and never again. No more.
I now recognise the part of me that allowed that to go on, and have it firmly under control. Very firmly.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:28:00 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

or use a punching bag to release negative energy

YaY for punching bags lol.
I have one that is used....A LOT....

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 7:33:07 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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***What Kiwi Said***

When it's a pervasive thing that you grow up with, it's hard to even recognize it as abuse.  The endless criticism, the "not good enough", the knowledge that you will be picked on for everything, just becomes part of the atmosphere.  With Hugh, it actually seemed NORMAL, and almost welcome, because it felt like home!  It took me decades to break that pattern, look at the world differently, and walk away from those kinds of relationships.  It's phenomenally difficult, but I have a very solid sense of myself---which is what got me through the H episode, I never bought into his line. 

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:29:49 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Lets break this down into two separate items if you don't mind Michael.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.

Now I do not see this as poor coping skills, but rather a means of letting off steam which could feasibly influence detrimentally the rest of your play for that time period. I also apply this to other walks of life and have recommended patients/clients to go and get a load of disused crockery from an op-shop to break when required, or use a punching bag to release negative energy unless you have some hard physical work in which you can channel that energy.


If your coping skills result in building up enough anger or frustration that "letting off steam" means breaking things, those are poor coping skills.  The reason they are poor is they are not dealing with the underlying causes of why anger or frustration are occurring in the first place.  Good coping skills involve preventing anger and or frustration from occurring in the first place.

In my case, I just loved those nasty little things called "hidden expectations" and loved to beat my partner up (figuratively) when they failed to read my mind.  I also lacked the ability to talk about certain things that were huge emotional triggers for me, a big one being any time I felt unappreciated.

Learning coping skills for those feelings left the emotional triggers intact.  Learning to talk about them, to reveal my "hidden expectations" allowed my partners to actually DO those things and almost overnight my life began to be richer and filled with more fulfilled expectations than ever before and it just keeps getting better.



quote:

  You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.
You need to find alternatives and go to the above. Partners of any ilk need to understand that this is not personal but you releasing frustration or tension etc in a sane and safe manner.


It is absolutely personal if you are doing it in response to an issue involving them and frankly, I think it is still personal even if you do it over work issues.  I say that for the same reasons as I wrote above. 

Lets look at all this as emotional "language," which seems the more effective communication style -
  • I need you to initiate service for me prior to my asking because it shows me that you love me rather than just doing the minimum I ask for, which makes me feel like you do it as chore.

and
  • This isn't personal, I am breaking this plate (with the clear implication "instead of you") because I am so angry that you don't do things I need to feel loved.

At least, that is how I see it.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 12/26/2008 8:30:25 AM >

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:32:26 AM   
GreedyTop


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well said, Michael

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:36:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

***What Kiwi Said***

When it's a pervasive thing that you grow up with, it's hard to even recognize it as abuse.  The endless criticism, the "not good enough", the knowledge that you will be picked on for everything, just becomes part of the atmosphere.  With Hugh, it actually seemed NORMAL, and almost welcome, because it felt like home!  It took me decades to break that pattern, look at the world differently, and walk away from those kinds of relationships.  It's phenomenally difficult, but I have a very solid sense of myself---which is what got me through the H episode, I never bought into his line. 


Exactly,

For me, I had a series of partners who were the "other half" of the emotional mess that I was.  It took two wonderful women to break the cycle for me.  The first was very much the "other half" of my own mess but I loved that woman so deeply and we were so amazing together otherwise that I would have done anything to make it work, I just didn't know what the hell to do.

Next came someone who was on some level the same "other half" but unlike the woman above, she didn't yell and scream back.  So I would suddenly find myself in the middle of RAGING at this tiny creature in front of me and that provided the mirror to see how ugly what I was doing really was.

Then of course finding the amazing therapist I did helped me worth through all that crap.  He wasn't touch feely or new age, he was a hard ex cop who provided the perfect environment for me to see myself and learn to not just cope but to face and deal with the underlying issues that caused me to need coping skills in the first place

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:51:33 AM   
teenslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Lets break this down into two seperate items if you don't mind Michael.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.

Now I do not see this as poor coping skills, but rather a means of letting off steam which could feasibly influence detrimentally the rest of your play for that time period. I also apply this to other walks of life and have recommended patients/clients to go and get a load of disused crockery from an op-shop to break when required, or use a punching bag to release negative energy unless you have some hard physical work in which you can channel that energy.



Channeling rage/anger into sports like boxing is a little different to breaking possessions. Infact I would say chanelling it into sports is the way to go and does show good coping skills.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.
You need to find alternatives and go to the above. Partners of any ilk need to understand that this is not personal but you releasing frustration or tension etc in a sane and safe manner.



Depends what the aggression stems from I guess.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 8:52:47 AM   
IvyMorgan


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I don't see anything wrong with anger.  Anger is an emotion just like any other, and it is just as valid and needed as any other.  Where I see a problem is when people manage their anger poorly.  Either by hitting their partner/kids/dog or by denying their anger exists/not expressing it at all.  Both are extremes.  T and I both have "issues" with anger, it's a part of our lives.  I deny that I become angry, I dismiss my feelings of anger, irk, and upset, especially when caused by others, as "not important" and so my anger builds up.  Were I more confident and able to say, "that has made me upset/angry" I would manage better.

Anger can even be useful - anger can be channeled productively to a cause, to acheive something, be it writing a petition, joining a march, or making a change in your life.  When anger just *is*, when it is purposeless energy, then it can become more destructive to the person feeling it, then said person becomes trapped in that cycle of anger that is very hard to break and affects their lives.

I am (slowly) learning to be angry.  To admit that I am angry.  To experience being angry, giving myself permission to experience that.  I am learning not to deny my feelings.

That said, I am not angry at my abusers - there is no "point" to that anger, and, I've moved past it.  I'm not angry at what they did, just hurt and wounded by it.  Getting angry isn't going to acheive anything useful, so, I'm not that bothered that I genuinely don't feel any anger towards them.  My family on the other hand, them, I can get angry with, with their more "subtle" forms of abuse.  It is something I am used to, and something I experience daily, and most of the time, it just washes over me and I pay no heed, but, sometimes I am *angry* that I am having to live like this.  Then, I remind myself that this is only for a short while more, and that I can use that anger to drive me forwards so that I can be in a position financially and emotionally to move out, properly, come September.

My fear of others being angry with me, and the consequence of their anger, does inhibit me, but, I'm working to change that, too.  (This therapy lark is really rather useful.)

Anger is neither positive nor negative, it is what we do with it that determines whether it is a beneficial emotion/experience for us or not.

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RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 9:40:12 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

In another thread, the discussion drifted toward the discussion of what is and is not abusive.  I am quite familiar with this subject for a variety of reasons, both personal and professional.

My personal reasons is that in the past, while I never physically hurt any of my partners I did use my anger to control them.  I didn't often break things but I did at time as well as the classic pounding fists onto and into things.  At my size, when I rage, it is a sight to behold and one my lovers who are tiny in comparison to learned not to ask certain questions...thus controlling them with fear.  I was a classic "Domineering" "dom" rather than the highly evolved and near perfectly humble transcended human being I am now.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.  You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.

I glanced around for a decent link to the DSM IV but couldn't find one but I am sure someone can post it.

Lets break this down into two seperate items if you don't mind Michael.

If you go out into the garage and break something out of sight and earshot of a partner, that is simply an example of poor coping skills.

Now I do not see this as poor coping skills, but rather a means of letting off steam which could feasibly influence detrimentally the rest of your play for that time period. I also apply this to other walks of life and have recommended patients/clients to go and get a load of disused crockery from an op-shop to break when required, or use a punching bag to release negative energy unless you have some hard physical work in which you can channel that energy.

You do it in front of them and you have an issue you need to work on.
You need to find alternatives and go to the above. Partners of any ilk need to understand that this is not personal but you releasing frustration or tension etc in a sane and safe manner.




I would see it as bad manners, not to mention lack of control to get punchy with objects in front of someone. I wouldn't take it personally, even if it was a result of something they percieved was to *do with me*. I'd still see it as *their issue*.

Going off to the garage and laying into a punch-bag because they don't want to *show off*
or want to rid themselves of their negative crap and cool off before coming back in would not have the effect of making me assume any responsibility for it.

I feel responsible for things I KNOW I'm responsible for, and no amount of exaggerated bluster from someone else can alter that.

I don't tend to see it as abusive, but that could be that it's just very hard to actually abuse me...I see it as 'crapping in your own nest'.

agirl

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Subtle Abuse - 12/26/2008 10:05:04 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
I agree with you lass but, that wasn’t the matter I was dealing with. I was directly commenting on two statements Michael made. From the view point of the bystander or the “other person” who may or may not have been involved with what ever caused the overflow of temper. I agree with you and it is pretty much the way I deal with it when it happens near me.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 20
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