RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 11:24:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

America is founded by criminals/racists/terrorists and lead by them since.

Shame on you. This is far from the truth, even for those who disagreed with Bush.

I have to be ashamed because of the actions of criminals I have no part of? Please explain!

No, you should be ashamed to suggest America was founded and has been run by "Crooks, racists and terrorists". This is really wide of the mark, and a bit of an insult considering Americas losses in WW2 and Afghanistan. Not to mention tremendous international aid donations.

I have always been against the invasion of Iraq, and that wont change, yet even Bush had, in my views, bad advice rather than bad intent. Like most Countries there have always been good and bad politicians, America is no different from anywhere else. But hey, lets not tar everyone with the same brush please.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 2:16:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The fact it was a caterpillar is irrelevant, he was told it was a stinging insect (of whatever type wasn't specified) and he had a severe phobia about that.

Now I think by any definition that falls under mental torture, which is prohibited by the Conventions.

Yes, there were legal loopholes the Bush administration used to justify this, and they may have been legally correct, though that is disputable.

My question is what does that say about what we have become as a country when we use legal maneuvering to justify something that has, in the past, been against every principle this country stood for.

So what legal loopholes is Obama using. We only have one form of illegal torture noted out of the list.

And yes, it does make a big difference what type of insect it was. Note insect, not insects, not a box full, not a cage about his head full of them, not a closed casket with him and them inside, but an insect, and about as harmless an insect as one could possibly find. I could go along with you if they'd filled one of those old time knight helmets with black widows or something and put it on his head, but a frickin caterpillar on a man who planned the deaths of 3000 people?

I have no sympathy for him, even though I can probably come closer to understanding why he did what he did than most. I have no outraged moments over a bug when he probably had worse crawling through his room at night. Though I'm sure he would have preferred the virgins and the everlasting glory, as far as I'm concerned he's lucky they didn't bathe him daily in hog blood.

What does it say about us as a nation? I used to argue that very same point. I also put myself in the same situation. Given people who had attacked my country, killed maybe my friends, my family, and would do so again in a heartbeat, would I go round feeling bad for sticking a caterpillar in his cell? Not in the fucking least. Outright killing him when he was disarmed, starving, beating, maiming, intentionally causing severe pain, yes.

I think a lot of people will argue this out of hatred for Bush and for no other reason. I despise the man as well, but you know, you can walk outside and have more bugs on you than was used in his alleged torture. I don't think the man lived inside a glass bubble and I see absolutely no reason to walk around everyone's little foibles in that situation.

There is a difference between torture and putting a bug in a man's cell. You do every vet of every country a disgrace by taking hatred of Bush to this extreme, and in particular, spit soundly upon those who actually were tortured.

Rest assured though. Worse is coming. It was those who were spirited off to other countries that no doubt suffered the most under the eye of our government.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 4/21/2009 2:18:18 PM >

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 2:37:32 PM

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So just how many times ,in how many ways and how many posters will it take to get some people to realise this isn't about a bug.
This in and of itself is torture...watching some twist themselves in knots trying to defend the indefensible.America for a brief and altogether lamentable period sought to define how much was too much...what was allowed and what wasn't...what was close enough to the line they arbitrarily drew in the sand.And somehow came to the conclusion that a practice we had previously tried others for was on the right side of that line.Disgusting....

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 5:36:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So just how many times ,in how many ways and how many posters will it take to get some people to realise this isn't about a bug.
This in and of itself is torture...watching some twist themselves in knots trying to defend the indefensible.America for a brief and altogether lamentable period sought to define how much was too much...what was allowed and what wasn't...what was close enough to the line they arbitrarily drew in the sand.And somehow came to the conclusion that a practice we had previously tried others for was on the right side of that line.Disgusting....

And how many times will it take some posters to realize that in picking battles to fight, you're picking the wrong one by screaming, ranting and raving about it. I didn't pick the friggin headline to post here about insects, nor did I spend time sneering about fuckers who never lost a chance to take the high road!

The only people I see twisting themselves in knots are those who won't pull their head out of their collective hate filled asses long enough to realize, 1) if you don't want to argue about it or create the atmosphere for debate, then don't damned well lead with it, and 2) that Obama the progressive savior isn't ranting about half the crap everyone else is either.Out of the list of things posted, waterboarding was the only thing declared as torture. Wait, I'm sorry, illegal torture. I'll grant you that. Kinda means there's, drum roll, legal torture doesn't it?

Where's all the hand wringing outcry over that? I mean hell, we're crying about slamming people into walls, but wait, it's not been defined as torture so where's all the hate filled diatribes against the current administration?

This thread and this topic is about hatred, about people who were helpless, hapless, and ineffective with Bush in office and now want revenge.

What I want is the fucker put on trial, but not for a friggin bug, and yes, it is about a bug in some cases. I want him on trial for the deaths of those who underwent torture, real torture mike. I want him on trial for every time he spit on the constitution. I want him on trial for the lies he told the public.

Don't lose your disgust. Out of that list, only one thing was set aside as illegal. Evidence it in both directions and I just might believe that it's actually about the torture with you rather than the administration.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 6:23:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

..

And how many times will it take some posters to realize that in picking battles to fight, you're picking the wrong one by screaming, ranting and raving about it. I didn't pick the friggin headline to post here about insects, nor did I spend time sneering about fuckers who never lost a chance to take the high road!
Screaming ,ranting and raving...sort of what your doing here.

The only people I see twisting themselves in knots are those who won't pull their head out of their collective hate filled asses long enough to realize, 1) if you don't want to argue about it or create the atmosphere for debate, then don't damned well lead with it, and 2) that Obama the progressive savior isn't ranting about half the crap everyone else is either.Out of the list of things posted, waterboarding was the only thing declared as torture. Wait, I'm sorry, illegal torture. I'll grant you that. Kinda means there's, drum roll, legal torture doesn't it?
No knots here,my position has allways been consistant...We shouldn't be having this conversation,we(The United States of America) is ,or is supposed to be better than that.2) I didn't lead with anything.3) Obama the Pesident has too big a job cleaning up the mess left behind to have the time to rant.
Where's all the hand wringing outcry over that? I mean hell, we're crying about slamming people into walls, but wait, it's not been defined as torture so where's all the hate filled diatribes against the current administration?
The memos taken as a whole constitute an attempt to define and codify what amounts to torture...
This thread and this topic is about hatred, about people who were helpless, hapless, and ineffective with Bush in office and now want revenge.
That might be your take on things...not mine
What I want is the fucker put on trial, but not for a friggin bug, and yes, it is about a bug in some cases. I want him on trial for the deaths of those who underwent torture, real torture mike. I want him on trial for every time he spit on the constitution. I want him on trial for the lies he told the public
Don't hold your breath waiting on that.

Don't lose your disgust. Out of that list, only one thing was set aside as illegal. Evidence it in both directions and I just might believe that it's actually about the torture with you rather than the administration.
My disgust with the behavior of the last Administration ain't going anywhere.......it's not legal or illegal with me...it's American and unAmerican behavior.It is a vision I have,maybe naive on my part ,of what this country is supposed to stand for....and when that is violated,I could give two shits what party is behind it...or what administration.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 7:51:15 PM

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America was founded by crooks, racists and terrorists? Wow. I never realized that the Puritans were such a cut throat band of ner'do wells.... Do you suppose they all disembarked from the Mayflower in leathers and riding Harleys? Do you suppose they went around challenging the native population to "rumbles?"

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 9:36:46 PM

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Hey, hey,.................. leathers and Harleys do not equate with "ner'do wells".

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 9:39:16 PM

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But its an early indicator ....

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 10:16:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Saving untold numbers of innocent men, women and children from further terrorist attacks involves a principle.

In the judgment of many, a principle which balances out subjecting such terrorist planners and leaders as these three to being exposed to harmless little bugs or even waterboarding - which is exactly why these things were done.

At what point do we decide to win a war, and at what point do we decide to lay down and die or to allow others to die in order for us to say we fought more fairly than terrorists, or in order to say we didn't use harsh interrogation techniques on terrorist leaders and plan makers?

quote:

My question is what does that say about what we have become as a country when we use legal maneuvering to justify something that has, in the past, been against every principle this country stood for.

"Saving untold numbers of innocent men, women and children from further terrorist attacks"

And what proof is there that torture did this?

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/21/2009 11:14:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

But its an early indicator ....

Ya think?

Maybe you just watched too many of those '70's era flicks where Clint Eastwood and Joe Namath were the heroes against the dirty bikers.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 12:01:37 AM

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Waterboarding works

quote:

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 5:24:14 AM

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Actually, according to most sources, the info on the planned attacks came from him BEFORE we began waterboarding him three to four times a day, for an entire month... Once the "advanced interrogation techniques" began, he clammed up, and we got virtually nothing from him. Same went for the other two men that we singled out for this government sanctioned criminal activity.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 6:56:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Waterboarding works

quote:

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Irregardless of nothing whatsoever.....how do we know any information gleaned from such practices could not have been obtained using more.....shall we say "American" practices....

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 7:07:31 AM

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&th&emc=th

As shown in the article above- waterboarding DOESN'T work. Oh, the victim will talk- he'll say anything. It's just not particularly truthful. That was the conclusion that was reached back in the 50s- the article describes the origin of the waterboarding techniques.

The idea that waterboarding lead to valuable intelligence- please...these are the same imbeciles that claimed that Gaddam Hustlein had WMD. Their claim that the intelligence gleaned from waterboarding lead to thwarted terrorist attacks is merely that- a claim, because no one can go an verify it since to do so would compromise "ongoing" intelligence activities. The idea that torture works at extracting valuable military information is based more on Hollywood than anything else.

Sam

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 7:14:41 AM

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Sam,I started a new thread using that very article...I tittled it 'The keystone Kops were in Charge" a fascinating look at incompetence at the highest levels of gov't...

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 7:43:34 AM

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Hi Mike

Oh well, didn't mean to steal your thunder...

Sam

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 8:16:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Waterboarding works

quote:

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Unfortunately, the point is not whether it works or not, it is whether this is something we should be endorsing as a country.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 9:39:44 AM

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BINGO...give the man a cigar......that is the only measuing stick worth using.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 1:58:05 PM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE81vS38f6Y fox dude looses it

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 4:19:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE81vS38f6Y fox dude looses it

I wonder when that was aired, and what the whole convo was about......
Lucy

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