RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 5:15:02 PM

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The Department of Defense has long disputed the idea that torture yields useful information. I'm sure none of you are going to bother reading this, but I'll post the link anyway: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=3712.

It dates all the way back to September 6, 2006, long before the torture issue became a matter of the national conscience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Waterboarding works

quote:

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 5:31:09 PM

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Well, I read it. Thanks, it's pretty illuminating:

"MR. WHITMAN: This will be the last question, okay?
Q It seems to me that this all got rolling when folks down at Guantanamo were looking for exceptions to the current standards. Does this Field Manual prevent that from happening again? Wholly separate from the annual review that you talked about -- is there any possibility that somebody can again come to the secretary of Defense and say, look, we need a little bit more latitude? GEN. KIMMONS: I'd defer to the secretary. There's no provision for exceptions to this Field Manual. Q Was there a provision for the exception -- was there provision in the last Field Manual? And how did we get here from there? GEN. KIMMONS: Well, I think we got here, if you're talking about the transgressions and mistakes that were made in the past, those were not people complying with the old Field Manual, those were people who were abusing prisoners, sometimes in conjunction with interrogation and sometimes outside of the interrogation envelope, in a willful, malicious manner. " What strikes me here is that the army seem to be the ones who held themselves honourably, whilst the suited bastards at the CIA and Dept. of Defense transgressed the law and made up new 'rules' to fit their purpose...

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 7:21:34 PM

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quote:

Intel chief: Harsh techniques brought good info

Private memo says interrogation methods helped nation in terrorism fight

WASHINGTON - President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 7:24:09 PM

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Of course, they say that now.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 8:00:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Of course, they say that now.

There's a radio talk show in North Carolina called Take a Stand. The guy who does it lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to politics and is a big Constitutionalist. I called his show last week while I was passing through on the way to the next destination work-wise because in the 15-20 minutes I had him on the air, I heard him venting about the same old corruption in politics.

Your quote reminds me of that call kittin. His on-air question was why keep doing it? My answer was that you take the they out of government and make it an us.

And he does. The former speaker of the NC house is in federal prison partly because of this man. When the area was flooded by 20 feet of water during a series of hurricanes that slid up across the mountains and dumped somewhere around 40 inches of rain, and the state government refused to send aid from a rainy day fund creates specifically for disasters, he led the fight to force recognition and get help. He also led the coalition of folks who banded together, raised money, and literally rebuilt houses with their own hands.

Too many times, it is a they and not an us. I hear people talk about we being the government, that "of the people, by the people, and for the people" stance.

It has been a long friggin time since the government was of the people, by the people or for the people and a good part of that is the they in it.

Nothing to add to the conversation. You just jogged my memory.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/22/2009 9:10:46 PM

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NOW they are, but read the Taguba report while you're at it:

http://www.npr.org/iraq/2004/prison_abuse_report.pdf

The military's response was to demand that Taguba retire by the end of 2006. Seymour Hersh covered THAT scandal:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What strikes me here is that the army seem to be the ones who held themselves honourably, whilst the suited bastards at the CIA and Dept. of Defense transgressed the law and made up new 'rules' to fit their purpose...

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 11:51:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE81vS38f6Y fox dude looses it

I wonder when that was aired, and what the whole convo was about......
Lucy

I found it, I found it, weeeeeeeee...for those who give a damn
fox anchor that doesnt like torture
http://freedomwatchonfox.com/
Lucy

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 2:47:29 PM

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He's Shepard Smith, the main news guy ON that damn left-wing FOX News...

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 6:07:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZhuRenDianandted

What??? nobody died during the waterboarding? No reports of murder, execution, accidental deaths or starvation? the guy with the bug in the box not only did not get painfully stung, but did not even have a heart murmur?

As an aside, they never even put the bug in the box.

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 6:08:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Of course, they say that now.

That's Obama's intelligence director saying that now.

quote:

WASHINGTON - President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 4/23/2009 6:09:32 PM >

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 7:10:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

He's Shepard Smith, the main news guy ON that damn left-wing FOX News...

Yes, I realise that:) thats why I thought it was funny....Im sorry, sometimes the smallest things amuse me. I wanted to find the whole discussion....put it into context, and it did... at least for me. Its all part of thelearning curve, and ya never know what you will find along the way.

Lucy

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 8:03:04 PM

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I thought it was good too. And thank you for finding it and posting it. I was curious to see the whole clip myself!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Yes, I realise that:) thats why I thought it was funny....Im sorry, sometimes the smallest things amuse me. I wanted to find the whole discussion....put it into context, and it did... at least for me. Its all part of thelearning curve, and ya never know what you will find along the way.
Lucy

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 10:39:29 PM

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I'm surprised this thread has continued on as it has.

It really just boils down to which people are okay with being hypocrites and ethical cowards so long as it gets them what they want and which people aren't.

Life is full of people on both sides of that debate.

Carry on.

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/23/2009 11:09:35 PM

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This concept that torture produces accurate info is new and novel.

Historically and even today,torture is used to force someone to make a false confession.

What the neo-cons are saying when endorsing torture is that Saddam Hussein was also justified in using torture.As well, the Chinese,north Koreans,Russians,and every other torture state who`s ends must be justified.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/23/2009 11:10:53 PM >

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 5:59:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This concept that torture produces accurate info is new and novel.

You might wanna take that up with Obama's staff then. It was Obama's selected Director of Intelligence that made the statement that those interrogation techniques did produce helpful information.

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 6:07:57 AM

BamaD

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You might want to keep in mind that Obama's Director of Intelligence was choosen because he had no ties to the intelligance community, in other words for his lack of experiance (also know as qualifications)

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RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 6:24:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.

Hardly, the laws are already and have been on the books. Which laws shall we throw out next...say habeus corpus, the right to bear arms, the right to any trial and hear the evidence against you and confronting our accusers. Can the state hide behind something called 'states secrets ?'

This is what the Nazis claimed at Nuremberg...it didn't work then and it shoudn't work now.

"Although it had been initially planned to hold more than just one international trial at the IMT, the growing differences between the victorious allies (the United States, United Kingom, France, and the Soviet Union) made this impossible.

However, the Control Council Law No. 10, which the Allied Control Counsel had issued on December 20, 1945 (well after the fact) empowered any of the occupying authorities to try suspected war criminals in their respective occupation zones. Based on this law, the U.S. authorities proceeded after the end of the initial Nuremberg Trial against the major war criminals to hold another twelve trials in Nuremberg. The judges in all these trials were American, and so were the prosecutors. In the other occupation zones similar trials took place."

Obama on these issues is no different with the possible exception of ordering and end but otherwise is playing ball and is going to protect executive power and our slippery slide...toward fascism.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/24/2009 6:26:01 AM >

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 6:59:48 AM

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LOL, kinda like Bush's FEMA director during Hurricane Katrina, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You might want to keep in mind that Obama's Director of Intelligence was choosen because he had no ties to the intelligance community, in other words for his lack of experiance (also know as qualifications)

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 7:24:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

You might wanna take that up with Obama's staff then. It was Obama's selected Director of Intelligence that made the statement that those interrogation techniques did produce helpful information.

Whether it did or not is irrelevant, the question is should we be doing this?

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RE: On torture. Obama is WRONG - 4/24/2009 7:31:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You might want to keep in mind that Obama's Director of Intelligence was choosen because he had no ties to the intelligance community, in other words for his lack of experiance (also know as qualifications)

Also known as someone who would be able to see through the entrenched bureaucracy that allowed this situation to develop in the first place.

(in reply to BamaD)

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