quote:

TPE is a mindset.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

The objective distinction when it comes to the word slave, is force, period.

I entirely agree with you that the shackles of the mind are often stronger than any chain, but coercion, manipulation, etc., are not technically physical force - thus, it may be a crude distinction, but again, it is the distinction in any objective definition of the word slave.

Force is the legal distinction - a common tactic in human trafficking is not to threaten the abductee, but to threaten her family with death or severe bodily harm if she does not comply - threatening to expose her to her family if she does not comply is a bit more of a gray area, more of a mindfuck - the explicit threat of force is unambiguously in the Black and White area.

this is just plain incorrect. "brute force" or lack of consent does NOT have to be a part of literal slavery. please consult a dictionary as opposed to a law book, there is a difference.

also, your post above completely ignores the plight of the many millions of modern day non-consensual slaves who are not held by physical force or by any threat of physical force against them or a loved one, but by the psychological shackles which cut much deeper and far more powerful. so are these people not slaves in your eyes, but simply the weak and pitiful?

lovingpet also does well to point out the fact that "physical force" can be a factor in consensual slavery relationships as well.

Here ya go, the Thirteenth ammendment:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Says "slavery" right there.
Now, here is model legislation concerning human trafficking - "model" meaning guidelines drawn up for states to model state legislation on, in compliance with federal statutes.
SEC. XXX.01. DEFINITIONS. In this Article:
(1) “Blackmail” is to be given its ordinary meaning as defined by [state blackmail statute, if any] and includes but is not limited to a threat to expose any secret tending to subject any person to hatred, contempt, or ridicule.
(2) “Commercial sexual activity” means any sex act on account of which anything of value is given, promised to, or received by any person.
(3) “Financial harm” includes credit extortion as defined by [state extortion statute, if any] , criminal violation of the usury laws as defined by [state statutes defining usury], or employment contracts that violate the Statute of Frauds as defined by [state statute of frauds].
(4) "Forced labor or services" means labor, as defined in paragraph (5), infra, or services, as defined in paragraph (8), infra, that are performed or provided by another person and are obtained or maintained through an actor's:
(A) causing or threatening to cause serious harm to any person;
(B) physically restraining or threatening to physically restrain another person;
(C) abusing or threatening to abuse the law or legal process;
(D) knowingly destroying, concealing, removing, confiscating or possessing any actual or purported passport or other immigration document, or any other actual or purported government identification document, of another person;
(E) blackmail; or
(F) causing or threatening to cause financial harm to [using financial control over] 1
any person.
(5) “Labor” means work of economic or financial value.
(6) “Maintain” means, in relation to labor or services, to secure continued performance thereof, regardless of any initial agreement on the part of the victim to perform such type of service.
(7) “Obtain” means, in relation to labor or services, to secure performance thereof.
(8) "Services" means an ongoing relationship between a person and the actor in which the person performs activities under the supervision of or for the benefit of the actor. Commercial sexual activity and sexually-explicit performances are forms of “services” under this Section. Nothing in this provision should be construed to legitimize or legalize prostitution.
(9) “Sexually-explicit performance” means a live or public act or show intended to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires or appeal to the prurient interests of patrons.
(10) “Trafficking victim” means a person subjected to the practices set forth in Sections XXX.02(1) (involuntary servitude) or XXX.02(2) (sexual servitude of a minor), or transported in violation of Section XXX.02(3) (trafficking of persons for forced labor or services).

The word "slavery" is not mentioned at all, much like the fact that the word "privacy" does not occur in the Fourth ammendment, instead it is explicitly defined in terms of actions, freedom from illegal search and seizure, due process, etc.

Interestingly, the term "peonage" occurs in the US code, and I think you're on safe ground there, I've never heard anybody in the BDSM community call themselves a "peon" - doesn't have quite the same cachet, "peed on", maybe - anyway, again, the word slavery doesn't occur, there is a definition instead:

Whoever knowingly and willfully holds to involuntary servitude or sells into any condition of involuntary servitude, any other person for any term, or brings within the United States any person so held, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

---

18 U.S.C. § 1581


So, "a condition of involutary servitude" is pretty much the legal defintion, I'm merely pointing out that use of the term "slave" amongst the uninitiated may well result in significant confusion, otherwise, knock youself out.

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

I don't get from this thread that this is 'obviously a very emotional issue' for Lucienne, neither do I see that she was 'persistently arguing and deliberatly trying to provoke and offend people'. I would have to put a lot into this thread (perception) to reach those same conclusions.

Really? How about his words on the top post of page 3?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
There are some folks on here whose words have a lot of veacity and credibility and others, not so much.  Read some posts and you will likely understand where truism lies.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:


I thought I was pretty explicit in asking that people not deny the ugly and sad reality of the sex slave trade by equating it to their mutually satisfactory and consensual intimate relationships.

Taking a polar, non-consensual and negative example of slavery and getting uncomfortable enough to presume other people are belittling those instances of slavery because they use the term (in proper context) to describe a more amicable interaction dynamic that has the same control elements is emotional overreaction.

quote:

leadership527
OK, let me make the really really simple... because, honestly it is simple. Imagine that we lived in some earlier time or different place where slavery was culturally allowed. Got it? Good. Carol is my slave.

There ya go, that's it. There is nothing more to wonder. That's exactly how I perceive her. It is how she perceives herself.

Put differently, it's what happens when you stop making special "bdsm interpretations" of the word "slave" and just go with it literally. At least, that's what it is for me and Carol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovingpet
And if you still think you would be tracked down and killed, does that change things?  It is not that far fetched to come to believe that nonconsentual brute force can become mentally inescapable.  I can consent to any number of things if I believe the choice is death or the very unhappily ever after kind of pain.  Also abandonment becomes a real threat when one can no longer function independently in society at large.  A lot of things can bind one person to another.

quote:

Original: NihilusZero
Good job. You've deduced that French is not the primary language of most of the posters here. As a bonus point scored, you've shown how inept a job I personally did at committing any grammatical rules to memory from my 5 years of studying French. Also, I do happen to own the first two Underworld movies on DVD and have yet to acquire the third to complete my collection.

Feel better that you caught me and others in the horrendous faux pas of not either perving your profile to attain further insight into your gender and/or not having spent enough time and effort studying French etymology?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Last: google "slavery" and see how many pages it takes to reach a page that isn't talking about involuntary servitude - just sayin'.

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ORIGINAL: happylittlepet
Whether a slave from Africa after years of slavery in the USA did not know how to live as 'free' man/woman, does not justify that he/she was taken against his/her will in the first place. This is also not comparable to how a M/s relationship often starts out, as low key, after which the limits are constantly moved in the internal enslavement department:

quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet


What is slavery then: real or play; consensual or not; limitless? There is a very fine line as to where abuse starts in the BDSM context, and that line is interpreted differently depending on which side one finds oneself. Whether a slave from Africa after years of slavery in the USA did not know how to live as 'free' man/woman, does not justify that he/she was taken against his/her will in the first place. This is also not comparable to how a M/s relationship often starts out, as low key, after which the limits are constantly moved in the internal enslavement department:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovingpet
And if you still think you would be tracked down and killed, does that change things?  It is not that far fetched to come to believe that nonconsentual brute force can become mentally inescapable.  I can consent to any number of things if I believe the choice is death or the very unhappily ever after kind of pain.  Also abandonment becomes a real threat when one can no longer function independently in society at large.  A lot of things can bind one person to another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, let me make the really really simple... because, honestly it is simple. Imagine that we lived in some earlier time or different place where slavery was culturally allowed. Got it? Good. Carol is my slave.

There ya go, that's it. There is nothing more to wonder. That's exactly how I perceive her. It is how she perceives herself.

Put differently, it's what happens when you stop making special "bdsm interpretations" of the word "slave" and just go with it literally. At least, that's what it is for me and Carol.

Dear Jeff,

with all due respect, I must say that your choice of word had, as we say in the flowerly ways of consultants, " a significant improvement potential" and I understand that Lucienne was upset. The resulting flamewar was of course unwarranted but people are emotional and we all have been long enough on the net to know that a misplaced word can cause a big flow of bile. It is surprising however, that after years of bad experience with flames, people (me included) are still not capable of just pointing it toward the soil and sleep over it before launching the scuds. What the hell, it is part of the fun to.

I will surely not throw the first stone to you about improvable wording, but.

Refering to an historical episode that is surely one of the darkest page of our civilisation and applying it directly one-to-one to your relationship is heavy-handed and obviously not true.

When I read "literally" next to slave and after your previous phrase I was quite suprised. Then "litteral" pictures sprung to my mind: Jeff starting a sugar cane plantation to milk bio-ethanol subsidies, Jeff switching to carbon-neutral cotton... and the poor Carol doing all the work while Jeff drinks a punch planteur in a white suit under the porch of a "Gone with the Wind" mansion...

Davan, I know that slavery was not just about picking cotton or working in salt mines, that some slaves made actually great careers during the roman empire, nevertheless, most of the slaves "enjoyed" a rather painful and short life.

Thus, without putting it in context, your post could and was interpreted in a way which is not what you think.

Kinky regards,

Henry

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: OHxSLAVE
?

OK, let me make the really really simple... because, honestly it is simple. Imagine that we lived in some earlier time or different place where slavery was culturally allowed. Got it? Good. Carol is my slave.

There ya go, that's it. There is nothing more to wonder. That's exactly how I perceive her. It is how she perceives herself.

Put differently, it's what happens when you stop making special "bdsm interpretations" of the word "slave" and just go with it literally. At least, that's what it is for me and Carol.