RE: what is TPE 24/7?

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: what is TPE 24/7?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: what is TPE 24/7?

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 11:56:34 AM

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

When I read "literally" next to slave and after your previous phrase I was quite suprised. Then "litteral" pictures sprung to my mind: Jeff starting a sugar cane plantation to milk bio-ethanol subsidies, Jeff switching to carbon-neutral cotton... and the poor Carol doing all the work while Jeff drinks a punch planteur in a white suit under the porch of a "Gone with the Wind" mansion...

That's not a "literal" interpretation of the word "slave" at all, though. It is a cultural concept of the word as it pertained to an ethnic minority in this country a number of decades ago.

To take the "literal" definition of the word, all that is needed is a discussion of the dynamics of authority, control, and ownership. Not race. Not ethics. Not morals. Not mores and norms. Just the authority subjugation of one person to another.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/1/2009 11:57:00 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 12:00:01 PM

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What I am not going to do is go down the path of "because some soup is too salty, all soup must be too salty or it's not soup." I am not about to start rationalizing how it is that carol is really my posession because [insert random dark/ugly thing here]. I'm also not about to go adding too much salt into my soup in order to make it "real soup". That is both unecessary and, to me at least, disturbing. I think that basic linguistics does the job quite nicely here.

Leadership, i agree, and that was an excellent analogy. plus, it made me want soup! *runs to kitchen*

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 12:37:22 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein
Refering to an historical episode that is surely one of the darkest page of our civilisation and applying it directly one-to-one to your relationship is heavy-handed and obviously not true.

All except for the fact that I didn't do that (see specific thought trains above).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovingpet incognito said
I thought I had helped to settle things down a bit. Now it seems like my moderation has gone and upset all the apple carts. I will go now and erase my tally mark from that win column now.

Oh I disagree. I thought your points more or less rational and worth gettign back into the thread over... hence my response. Actually, my post was only the reflection of my internal musings as I tried to sort out "why slave" and what does "literal" mean in this context? In the end, I'm figuring out this is just like the "TPE" debate. Depending on your viewpoint, it is either "total" or "not total" and both answers are correct.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 12:40:43 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
To take the "literal" definition of the word, all that is needed is a discussion of the dynamics of authority, control, and ownership. Not race. Not ethics. Not morals. Not mores and norms. Just the authority subjugation of one person to another.

Actually NZ, I'm not sure that is correct. I came to understand that once again context rears it's ugly head here. The legal definitions, such as they are, exist in a different world and for different purposes than the socio-historic definitions. If someone wants to view it through the legal lens, they are not wrong in doing so. For me, given that there no cops, lawyers, judges or legislators in my living room, I find the socio-historic definitions more useful to work with.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 12:53:25 PM

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

Oh thank goodness! I am glad to know the apple carts are all just fine! LOL

That's the thing. In some ways, language limits us in discussing the finer points of some concepts. The fact of the matter is, once a concept strays even one bit away from the original it can no longer be considered the "literal" original concept. It has become its own entity, whether or not it has a name or we can come up with one for it. That is kind of my thing with this "consentual slave" issue. Ever as closely as it parallels the historical or even legal definitions and practices, there is still a distinctive difference. It is not one that should be so inflammatory as it has been in this thread, but it is there. Now what the heck do we call it? Well, since it only strays in one or two areas and only a hair's width at that, we continue to call it slavery. I guess we can't really claim it to be literal, even if there comes a point where there are absolutely no difference in the current status, practice, and conditions.

Semantic games amuse me when I'm bored, but really it tires quickly. I'll just settle on the term slave simply because I am not nearly invested enough to bother with coming up with something else to call it. I won't claim I use it in a literal context, but I am not going to downplay the extent to which a person's practice of this thing I am calling slavery may very well resemble the literal concept.

Oh and it's good to be back to myself here....uh.... I hope! LOL

lovingpet
No longer in my Domme costume

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 1:19:28 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

When I read "literally" next to slave and after your previous phrase I was quite surprised. Then "literal" pictures sprung to my mind: Jeff starting a sugar cane plantation to milk bio-ethanol subsidies,

Falk,
That would represent a literal misunderstanding of the reality of 'slaves'. Historically they did have power. Literally - they could marry.
It is sometimes alleged that slavery and marriage were totally incompatible, for recognition of the husband wife bond would have limited intolerably the slave owner's authority and his right to dispose of his property. Historically, however, such a view is incorrect.

Death is a good source of "literally"; historically and in varying cultures, it was handled in a variety of ways.
A major touchstone of the nature of a slave society was whether or not the owner had the right to kill his slave. In most Neolithic and Bronze Age societies slaves had no such right, for slaves from ancient Egypt and the Eurasian steppes were buried alive or killed to accompany their deceased owners into the next world. Among the Northwest Coast Tlingit, slave owners killed their slaves in potlatches to demonstrate their contempt for property and wealth; they also killed old or unwanted slaves and threw their bodies into the Pacific Ocean. An owner could kill his slave with impunity in Homeric Greece, ancient India, the Roman Republic, Han China, Islamic countries, Anglo-Saxon England, medieval Russia, and many parts of the American South before 1830.That was not the case in other societies. The Hebrews, the Athenians, and the Romans under the principate restricted the right of slave owners to kill their human chattel. The Code of Justinian changed the definition of the slave from a thing to a person and prescribed the death penalty for an owner who killed his slave by torture, poison, or fire. Spanish law of the 1260s and 1270s denied owners the right to kill their slaves. Lithuanian and Muscovite law forbade the killing, maiming, or starving of a returned fugitive slave. Ch'ing Chinese law punished a master who killed his slave, and that punishment was more severe if the slave had done no wrong. The Aztecs under some circumstances put to death a slave owner who

Literal 'slave' Sex: It was not an axiom of the master�slave relationship that the former automatically had sexual access to the latter. That was indeed the case in most societies, ranging from the ancient Middle East, Athens, and Rome to Africa, all Islamic countries, and the American South. Places such as Muscovy, however, forbade owners to rape their female slaves, while the Chinese and the Lombards forbade the raping of married slave women.

Literal modern day slavery has only the name 'slave' in common with historical usage. I'd recommend reading 'A Crime So Monstrous' by E. Benjamin Skinner as a reference source. I found the key distinction regarding modern slavery is that is is more associated with criminals and a few backwater countries. However, Mr. Skinner points out in the book how, outside the cultural context, many woman in Muslim controlled countries would be considered 'literal' slaves. The woman would deny it, but when you compare the limitations of those woman; voting, owning property, traveling without their husband/owner, driving a car, with the historical 'literal' versions; there is little to distinguish their 'literal' life reality.

You challenge the responses of those whose definition of literal slave is not consistent with yours. Which of these historical or current literal slave activities is consistent with your view? Your vision of Jeff on the porch of a plantation is myopic when all the documented versions of literal historical and current versions of slavery are considered.

Before challenging the word 'literal' it would serve you first to understand which context of the word 'slave' it is modifying.

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 1:45:38 PM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

random reply

so i went through the entire amount of postings but still found no answer as to what the power gets exchanged for...

i mean even buzz frazes stand for proper stuff don't they?
TPE = Total Power Exchange
not Total Dominance and submission Exchange
not Total Power Surrender
or Total Power Grabbing
no... exchange... what does the power get exchanged for?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 1:52:51 PM

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

random reply

so i went through the entire amount of postings but still found no answer as to what the power gets exchanged for...

i mean even buzz frazes stand for proper stuff don't they?
TPE = Total Power Exchange
not Total Dominance and submission Exchange
not Total Power Surrender
or Total Power Grabbing
no... exchange... what does the power get exchanged for?

Out of complete and utter masochism, here's an answer. I never said a good one! LOL

The void. You exchange your power so that you can receive the void. The void of control, will, contention, fear, second thoughts. I know that is what I received for mine and I am very happy with the exchange rate I received.

Can I have a percocet now???

lovingpet

(in reply to ranja)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 2:04:40 PM

Posts: 28879
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline

As a 24/7 TPE slave i would get a sense of security - the lack of worries about where i am going to live, what i will eat and whether i will be cared for if i am ill.

For that i am willing to perform "personal" services, to cook for Him, to clean His home, to do His laundry, to be His companion (if He wishes), and to make His life comfortable and pleasing.

Think about your animal pets - you feed them, house them and provide medical care for them. What else do they get from being owned by you?

_____________________________

fluffy

"an exuberant example of libido continuing along regardless of age" - Kia

"Commandment Number One for any truly civilized society is this: Let people be different." -David Grayson

(in reply to lovingpet)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 2:25:20 PM

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

reply to no one in particular:

This debate over "literal" slavery vs metaphorical slavery has been around quite a while. Some may recall my posts on this under the Gorean boards.

What I find striking in this is the strong desire to own the word- In other words, why does the BDSM community use a word with so many powerful connotations? One that brings to mind the horrors of Antebellum South slavery, or modern human trafficking? I don't think anyone is saying that BDSM slavery is exactly the same as human trafficking, zero difference, none, exactly precisely the same.
Other subcultures can and often do create words to have specific meanings that separate them from the dominant culture- butch, twink, bear, are examples from the gay community. So why haven't we created a special word to denote BDSM slavery, separate from the other kind?

I have said before I think we use the word not in spite of, but BECAUSE it has those connotations. BDSM slavery is actually internal enslavement, a mental state- if you feel like a slave, then you are.

Words are powerful tools that shape our sense of reality. BDSM and Gorean slaves insist on the word because it means something to them, that "submissive" doesn't. They feel enslaved, they feel powerless, and it is not playacting or a kinky bedroom game; Calling yourself a slave, having someone else call you a slave, having a slave contract, a slave registration number; these things all help to create the sense of enslavement and mental bondage.

So while it is true that BDSM slavery is different than traditional slavery in that there is consent, it is also true that for those who are in it, their sense of enslavement demands a word as intense and powerful as "slavery" and a made-up word just won't do.

All well and good, except that this thread will need to be repeated every 6 months or so, as long as the two meanings of the word slavery are used interchangeably. Oh, and it doesn't help that the word slave is used abused and misused so often by "no limit slaves" who say they won't do housework. But another topic for another thread!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 2:30:06 PM

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Merc,

"historically slaves did have power"? Some slaves did have power, I mention it in my post, but most, say 99% did not. What kind of power had slaves in the USA around 1840?

The power to pick cotton for most of them, the power to supervise the cotton pickers for a few and the power to spread their legs for the good looking ones.
And they could marry! Wow, what a "power". Since the masters needed fresh replacement, breeding was of course encouraged, and the owners in the USA being good christians preffered that to happen in holy matrimony.

Basically, you are saying that historical slavery was not that bad. Interesting nostalgy...

Be seing you

Henry

< Message edited by Falkenstein -- 10/1/2009 2:40:29 PM >

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 2:36:23 PM

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

When I read "literally" next to slave and after your previous phrase I was quite suprised. Then "litteral" pictures sprung to my mind: Jeff starting a sugar cane plantation to milk bio-ethanol subsidies, Jeff switching to carbon-neutral cotton... and the poor Carol doing all the work while Jeff drinks a punch planteur in a white suit under the porch of a "Gone with the Wind" mansion...

That's not a "literal" interpretation of the word "slave" at all, though. It is a cultural concept of the word as it pertained to an ethnic minority in this country a number of decades ago.

To take the "literal" definition of the word, all that is needed is a discussion of the dynamics of authority, control, and ownership. Not race. Not ethics. Not morals. Not mores and norms. Just the authority subjugation of one person to another.

Nope These are "literral pictures", a nice oxymoron by the way.
You cannot envision the "authority subjugation" outside of a moral contract, or between two etheral beings without culture. Thus any reflection about the meaning of slave can only take place within the frame of a culture.
The Hegelian Master/slave dialectic starts in such an abstract vacuum, but has a completly different objective.

Be seeing you

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 2:45:27 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

What kind of power had slaves in the USA around 1840?

Your fixation of this period of time isn't relevant. You obviously have only one version of the word slave in mind. This is a YOU problem reflecting a mental limitation. However your focus on a literal 'slave' in 1840 points to a reality of the word 'literal' and 'slave' are perspective based. The mere fact that you point to the power of a slave in a specific time-frame of 1840 points to the transitory nature of the definition.

I don't think any more evidence was needed to prove that point, but appreciate you providing it.

quote:

Basically, you are saying that historical slavery was not that bad. Interesting nostalgy...

Henry,
You expose yourself as literally defining the word ignorant if that is your understanding of my post and its purpose.

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 3:23:58 PM

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Dear Merc,

come on, why become so quickly personel and ballistic?

If I hurt your feelings, I apologize. Of course, my remark about your nostalgy was just a pointe.

As for the period, we can discuss slavery in Ancient Rome, medieval serfdom, French west india plantations, Viking enslavement, or even the evolution of Brazilian slavery rules in Recife until abolition (did you know that Brazil ceased to be an empire because of the slave question? I was surprised to learn that)

But please do not throw the whole Brittanica at me.

Be seeing you

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 3:36:11 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Basically, you are saying that historical slavery was not that bad. Interesting nostalgy...

Henry,
You expose yourself as literally defining the word ignorant if that is your understanding of my post and its purpose.

I believe next someone is going to pull out the hitler card.

I can sympathize though, it's hard to even imagine that a cultural institution such as slavery might, take on a wide variety of forms across human cultures and time periods. Cause, you know, otherwise all those cultures were so identical.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 3:39:53 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

If I hurt your feelings, I apologize.

Representing that I would consider 19th century slavery in the US as "not so bad" warranted the response; however no need to apologize to me, especially if it was your honest opinion formed from of my post.

Truth be told I find the use of the word 'slave' reprehensible exactly for consideration of encountering people such as you. I think it disrespects any person living, or having lived as a 'slave', in your perspective of the word. However, is serves as a short cut for whatever limited 'lifestyle' image the person hearing it uses.

When introduced to the word 'kijara' I found it charming, but because I find it uncomfortable to pronounce correctly, I don't use it either. Besides, my relationship does not represent any of the other connotations associated with that label. I'm left with using the word 'slave'. The alternative, introducing beth and listing all the things she does within our relationship definition of 'slave', would take too long. So I use the word 'slave'. MOST people understand the generalities it implies and appreciate its distinction from most of the specifics provided in the historical references.

quote:

please do not throw the whole Brittanica at me.

Okay, let me know how much of it do you need thrown in order to appreciate the relevance of perspective concerning this issue?

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:07:32 PM

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Actually NZ, I'm not sure that is correct. I came to understand that once again context rears it's ugly head here. The legal definitions, such as they are, exist in a different world and for different purposes than the socio-historic definitions. If someone wants to view it through the legal lens, they are not wrong in doing so.

And I would presume that everyone would be in agreement that consensual slavery is not permissible in the legal context (although it would obviously still be able to exist). I didn't think we were back at a thread topic about the legality of slavery, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For me, given that there no cops, lawyers, judges or legislators in my living room, I find the socio-historic definitions more useful to work with.

I'm just going to the strict, bare-bone definition, without legal, moral or social stigmas or flavors attached to it. The base prerequisites that make X interaction between two humans linguistically qualified to use "slavery" as a descriptor.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:10:16 PM

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Merc,

Thank you very much for you clarification. Yes, I am afraid I misinterpreted your post .You can spare the rest of your Brittanica

If I correctly understood you this timle, we are basically meaning the same thing, mentionning "slavery" should be done with some prudence and "slave" is very imperfect term for a BDSM relation.

I will google "kijara" toomorow because it sounds really good.

Please convey my best regards to your kijara.

Be seeing you

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:25:42 PM

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Nope These are "literral pictures", a nice oxymoron by the way.

You said it. I didn't. So, since we've agreed that phrase is incoherent...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

You cannot envision the "authority subjugation" outside of a moral contract, or between two etheral beings without culture.

You mean you can't? Obviously since we're talking about human slavery it inevitably deals with two individuals who espouse some construct of moral, ethical and legal rules. The key point is that all those traits are irrelevant. Slavery does not have any emotional status to it, only a dynamic one.

A plantation slave from a century ago who was genuinely happy with his/her master (an adjustment in the moral category) would still have been a slave, because it described his/her role in their interactions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Thus any reflection about the meaning of slave can only take place within the frame of a culture.

You are arguing that we should expected to be myopic due to our anthropocentrism?

Again, you're treating the word as the title of a human historical phenomenon rather than as the base word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

The Hegelian Master/slave dialectic starts in such an abstract vacuum, but has a completely different objective.

I suppose linguistically, the synthesis of what your saying is that the word "slavery" can function in more than one way and be accurate on both counts, but context is the main point of reference here.

I still think the discussion would be ideally best served getting competing list of prerequisites that individuals feel are necessary to qualify X as slavery and find where some of the prerequisites do or do not hold up to scrutiny (historical or otherwise).

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:27:44 PM

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

I will google "kijara" toomorow because it sounds really good.

Googling "kajira" will likely produce better results.

"Kijara" is a racehorse. Damn fine looking filly and all, but not helpful to the discussion.

(in reply to Falkenstein)

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: what is TPE 24/7?

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

1.090