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RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:31:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I'm just going to the strict, bare-bone definition, without legal, moral or social stigmas or flavors attached to it. The base prerequisites that make X interaction between two humans linguistically qualified to use "slavery" as a descriptor.

See, but this is where I find you just as "wrong" or "right" as Lucienne or Henry. The fact of the matter is that there are several possible contexts and meanings for the word and I don't find any one of those contexts to have natural primacy over the others. What, in your opinion, makes the socio-historic meaning of the word so definitive as opposed to the legal meaning?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:46:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

...it's hard to even imagine that a cultural institution such as slavery might...

That's where the divide is. Some people are arguing on behalf of Slavery™, the historical phenomenon/"cultural institution", and some people are arguing on behalf of slavery, the plain word describing a type of social/personal/interactive dynamic between two people.

It certainly was the consistent process of recurring slavery throughout recorded human civilization that gave rise to Slavery™. And Slavery™ became so popularly ingrained in our emotional views as the most universal sort of slavery (particularly via the civil rights changes of ethnic minorities just a couple of generations before us) that it's as hard to envision the word when uttered now as anything other than Slavery™ in the same way that "gay" cannot but be considered a reference to homosexuality anymore.

In conclusion: all Slavery™ is slavery, but not all slavery is Slavery™.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/1/2009 4:52:30 PM >

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RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:50:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What, in your opinion, makes the socio-historic meaning of the word so definitive as opposed to the legal meaning?

Nothing. I don't place one above the other. What I'm placing higher on the hierarchy is the literal definition.

quote:

slav⋅er⋅y

Pronunciation [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.

Obviously, #2 shows how the "institutional" context is potentially relevant, but it does not discount the "practicing" context. It specifically allows for both as examples of it.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/1/2009 4:51:26 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 4:57:32 PM

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Nihilus,

Nope, a nice oxymoron, or an ugly one for that matter can be just a condensed way of expressing something. In this case, a litteral picture is a visualisation of an idea taken litteraly.

It is of course possible for you to conceive slavery as an abstract construct without any historical or cultural consideration. You can do the same with any other concept: beauty, religion. However, I am not sure that the conclusion you will get from such abstraction will be very useful.

For me, slavery is an historical fact, which has to be understood in the context of the societies which practiced it or not . When you contrast the societies which did not practice it from the one which did or rather do not, you will find that there are two major types of non slaving exceptions: very primivite societies (e.g. small indian tribes), and very productive ones.

Slavery is not about property but about robbery. Robbing a person of the fruits of his labour, of her body. It is the basest form of exploitation and the first one devised (with religion). Once societies get past a certain level of productivity, as well as an advanced rule of law, the slave is not worth the trouble anymore and is replaced by salaried people or piecemeal workers.

Therefore, I think that the BDSM term slavery refers to something entirely different from the historical one and Jeff was wrong using one to define the other.

The Hegelian contradiction is IMHO that the master need the slave to exists as such and that his existence becomes dependent of the view of the slave. It is about self-perception and not about an historic fact. Abstraction is then of course useful.

Be seeing you, Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 5:05:14 PM

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Many thanks,

Yes it helped a lot.

BTW, I found your idea of perception-based definition quite interesting and more useful than the historical concepts. I hope it will be discussed more.

Be seeing you,

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to AnimusRex)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 5:24:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What, in your opinion, makes the socio-historic meaning of the word so definitive as opposed to the legal meaning?

Nothing. I don't place one above the other. What I'm placing higher on the hierarchy is the literal definition.

quote:

slav⋅er⋅y

Pronunciation [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.

Obviously, #2 shows how the "institutional" context is potentially relevant, but it does not discount the "practicing" context. It specifically allows for both as examples of it.

slave
/slayv/
a person held in servitude as the property of another.

Carol is not the legal literal property of Jeff. A dictionary does not refer to ''slave'' in a theatrical setting in which it is used by bdsm practitioners.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 10:22:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Last: google "slavery" and see how many pages it takes to reach a page that isn't talking about involuntary servitude - just sayin'.

and what exactly does that prove? 200 years ago in the united states of america, coming across 100 random black people, you could find that the first 60 of those could not read or write. does that then prove that at the time, no black person could read or write? would you have defined a black person as "one who is illiterate?"

Amaros, you don't seem to realize that not everyone in the D/s or BDSM worlds wishes to live in a fairyland. i personally am not a "bdsm slave." i do not live a "bdsm lifestyle." i do not identify with the overwhelming majority of those who use those labels, as my way of life and beliefs are just so different. my Master and i believe in keeping things simple and organic. we don't re-define words or twist language, nor do we engage in the common practices of scening or playing. what makes me his slave is the fact that he has total control over my life, and truly for me there are no other options. not that i want any, that is way i chose this. but were i ever to change my mind one day it would matter little, as what is done is done.

i do not feel the need to invent a new term to separate the slavery i live from any other form of real slavery. consensual slavery can be real slavery, coercive slavery can be real slavery, legally sanctioned slavery can be real slavery...none of those adjectives define slavery itself, they simple describe the particular hue.

i do feel that those who do not live and furthmore have no interest in living within real slavery, but for whatever odd reason "get off" on the label, should perhaps consider using more appropriate terminology, but that is not likely to occur.

What the google experiment proves is that the colloquial definition of slavery is still strongly connected to the state of involuntary servitude amongst people who write articles on the internet.

As for the rest, I in no way mean to question the degree and quality of your commitment, and if anything, the term slave probably doesn't do you justice, so it goes.

It would be far less valuable to me if it were coerced, that's just cheating.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/1/2009 10:24:25 PM >

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/1/2009 10:35:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Oh thank goodness! I am glad to know the apple carts are all just fine! LOL

That's the thing. In some ways, language limits us in discussing the finer points of some concepts. The fact of the matter is, once a concept strays even one bit away from the original it can no longer be considered the "literal" original concept. It has become its own entity, whether or not it has a name or we can come up with one for it. That is kind of my thing with this "consentual slave" issue. Ever as closely as it parallels the historical or even legal definitions and practices, there is still a distinctive difference. It is not one that should be so inflammatory as it has been in this thread, but it is there. Now what the heck do we call it? Well, since it only strays in one or two areas and only a hair's width at that, we continue to call it slavery. I guess we can't really claim it to be literal, even if there comes a point where there are absolutely no difference in the current status, practice, and conditions.

Semantic games amuse me when I'm bored, but really it tires quickly. I'll just settle on the term slave simply because I am not nearly invested enough to bother with coming up with something else to call it. I won't claim I use it in a literal context, but I am not going to downplay the extent to which a person's practice of this thing I am calling slavery may very well resemble the literal concept.

Oh and it's good to be back to myself here....uh.... I hope! LOL

lovingpet
No longer in my Domme costume

I suggested "Thrall" in a previous iteration on the subject, basically means the "slave", but archaic and obscure enough that it isn't loaded.

Didn't catch on, not loaded enough probably.

(in reply to lovingpet)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 2:03:47 AM

ranja

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another random reply

thank you fluffy- and loving pet for the suggestions of void and sense of security... it is a start... i get void sometimes with sex and sense of security was definitely something i felt when the man married me... our contract.

i think TPE 24/7 is just a way to avoid saying slavery because as we seem to have established slavery is illegal... or marriage because that would not be true for everybody and totally political incorrect also.
I do think the exchange bit of the buzz fraze rattles though... it should be better really.

< Message edited by ranja -- 10/2/2009 2:09:55 AM >

(in reply to lovingpet)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 7:31:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

What the google experiment proves is that the colloquial definition of slavery is still strongly connected to the state of involuntary servitude amongst people who write articles on the internet.

As for the rest, I in no way mean to question the degree and quality of your commitment, and if anything, the term slave probably doesn't do you justice, so it goes.

It would be far less valuable to me if it were coerced, that's just cheating.

well some can only get what they desire by cheating...

"slave" does me justice just fine. it is a status i feel very fortunate to have reached, because i happen to be one of those who cannot thrive or even function positively without being strictly controlled, dominated, guided, disciplined. i am just not made up of the elusive stuff required to live a free and independent life. had i grown up in another time or perhaps in another place, the label "wife" would be socially understood to be equivalent to "slave," and that would suit me just fine. but as i'm not married to an orthodox muslim man, and live in the western world, just plain "slave" will do.

(in reply to Amaros)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 8:15:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What, in your opinion, makes the socio-historic meaning of the word so definitive as opposed to the legal meaning?

Nothing. I don't place one above the other. What I'm placing higher on the hierarchy is the literal definition.

quote:

slav⋅er⋅y

Pronunciation [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree]
–noun
1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery.

Obviously, #2 shows how the "institutional" context is potentially relevant, but it does not discount the "practicing" context. It specifically allows for both as examples of it.

''slave
/slayv/
a person held in servitude as the property of another.''

Carol is not the legal literal property of Jeff. A dictionary does not refer to ''slave'' in a theatrical setting in which it is used by bdsm practitioners.

Hence:

''literal =

1 having or denoting the factual, ordinary, or primary meaning of a word or expression, as opposed to a figurative one.
2 keeping strictly to the basic and straightforward meaning.

figurative =

1 characterized by or using figures of speech, esp metaphor.
2 representing by a figure or likeness; emblematic.

emblematic = symbolic

symbol =

something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of association, convention, etc.''

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 8:29:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
I do think the exchange bit of the buzz fraze rattles though... it should be better really.

Ranja: In my opinion, the reason you're struggling with "total power exchange" is because, frankly, all three words are wrong. One at a time...

a) Total: OK, we all know the problems with that word.
b) Power: Power is one of those words that sounds good on paper, but is paper thin when you try to actuallyl define it. What, exactly, is this "power" thing that is being talked about? Authority would've been much better chosen. I know what it means to say "Carol gives me authority...". I do not know what it means to say, "Carol gives me power..."
c) Exchange: There is no exchange. That's why you're struggling with it. I lead and carol follows. Neither of us actually "exchanges" anything with the other... we're both just doing our job as defined by our inclinations and the needs of the team.

Had anyone asked me when they came up with it, I'd have said something like "extreme authority transfer". In the end though, I've just decided to roll with the acronym as it stands and ignore it's glaring deficiencies. We all get what it means, no matter how poorly chosen the individual words.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to ranja)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 9:31:20 AM

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I see it as a subjective/objective issue: objectively are not a "slave" unless you are being held against your will - subjectively, you may well be more of a slave than somebody who's just waiting for an opportunity to make a break for it.

This is why you so often hear "that is just what I am" - the confusion is largely between the subjective and objective meanings of the word - and why "literal" meaning may not be the best means of making the proper distinction.

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 9:39:36 AM

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Thank you for making my points for me:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

''slave
/slayv/
a person held in servitude as the property of another.''

There you go. And she is held in servitude and is his property as much as any individual thing can be property (Jeff poignantly addressed the topic of what even constitutes property by making a great argument that it, really, is just an agreement of the status by all audience members or at least any of them that would have the power to nullify the ownership).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

Carol is not the legal literal property of Jeff. A dictionary does not refer to ''slave'' in a theatrical setting in which it is used by bdsm practitioners.

I'm sorry, I read and reread the definition of slave that you provided as well as others and keep missing that "legal" word you just used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

Hence:

''literal =

1 having or denoting the factual, ordinary, or primary meaning of a word or expression, as opposed to a figurative one.
2 keeping strictly to the basic and straightforward meaning.

"Keeping strictly to the basic and straightforward meaning" means taking the words of the definition at base value and not adding any other clothes to it.

By definition provided here, she would indeed be his "literal" slave. You know, "literal", with historical etymology shown here:

[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin litterālis, of letters, from Latin littera, lītera, letter; see letter.]

"See letter", not "see picture from X historical period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eigenaar

figurative =

1 characterized by or using figures of speech, esp metaphor.
2 representing by a figure or likeness; emblematic.

Representing by a figure or likeness, like by the concept of it from ancient Egypt or a Roman colosseum or the civil rights movement in the US.

Why do I get the suspicion that the people having these reverse interpretations of simple terms may be ones prone to treat or see WIITWD dynamics as 'role play' rather than an actual tangible expressions of the way two (or more) people function both by themselves individually and as a unit together?

Because, if the argument is "Yeah, but you two are just "playing" Master/slave and these historical figures lived it!" then it is yet again a argument for willingness/consent being a disqualifying facet of 'acceptable' slavery.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/2/2009 9:53:20 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to Eigenaar)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 9:42:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

I see it as a subjective/objective issue: objectively are not a "slave" unless you are being held against your will -

Where is that specified in any definition of the word? Where is non-consent a necessary quality?

Better yet, why must it be a necessary quality? Because Slavery™ has so many negative connotations that slavery must be preserved as an ethically repugnant dynamic?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/2/2009 9:54:26 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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(in reply to Amaros)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 9:54:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Why do I get the suspicion that the people having these reverse interpretations of simple terms may be ones prone to treat or see WIITWD dynamics as 'role play' rather than an actual tangible expression of the way two (or more) people function both by themselves individually and as a unit together?

NZ, i've long had the same suspicion whenever these debates crop up. for a great many all this D/s or BDSM stuff is only palatable and believable firmly within the confines of fantasy. it is kinky fun, or an extended but mutually agreed upon escape from reality. but the very idea that there could be anyone who is drawn to all of this because it speaks to the core of their personality, that is something that naturally pervades all aspect of their lives, and that the relationships formed within are not based on any fantasy or roleplay, and actually "literally" mean the things we say....well that's just appalling to these folks.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 9:59:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

NZ, i've long had the same suspicion whenever these debates crop up. for a great many all this D/s or BDSM stuff is only palatable and believable firmly within the confines of fantasy. it is kinky fun, or an extended but mutually agreed upon escape from reality. but the very idea that there could be anyone who is drawn to all of this because it speaks to the core of their personality, that is something that naturally pervades all aspect of their lives, and that the relationships formed within are not based on any fantasy or roleplay, and actually "literally" mean the things we say....well that's just appalling to these folks.

Heh.

So, this is really a BDSM equivalent of the types of arguments that, for instance, some laborers would make about arts performers, that what they do (the arts people) is not really a "job" but just a 'hobby' they're getting paid for. That there must be some measure of toil and suffering and hardship (of the non-willing flavor) before someone earns the title as if it's a badge of some degree of personal martyrdom?

Reminds me of this.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/2/2009 10:05:39 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 10:28:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

c) Exchange: There is no exchange. That's why you're struggling with it. I lead and carol follows. Neither of us actually "exchanges" anything with the other... we're both just doing our job as defined by our inclinations and the needs of the team.

Except there is an exchange or a transfer.

I disregard total because he's not in total charge to begin with. IRS says you owe x amount in taxes, he submits. lol
Power is something I have to give him to have over me.

But the exchange is energy. I give him my submission and I get back energy. Actually I give him my energy and he gives me back his. It's a cycle. Either of us could break it, but then we would both be weaker and less happy.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 10:48:38 AM

ranja

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Thank you Jeff... if all the words are wrong we're not getting any closer to an understanding of it do we?

yes Des... power for power, i go with that just like the money exchange

OHxSlAVE have you got it yet?

i think i'll just stick with: i'm His wife and i promised to obey Him in my vows....

(in reply to OHxSLAVE)

RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/2/2009 11:21:17 AM

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I've started thinking of myself in Biblical terms. I'm his helpmeet, here to help him, which helps me, us and the whole family.

And since we're horsey type people, in draft terms, he's the lead horse, he sets the direction of the pull so we can get where we want to go. Because if we don't pull together, we don't get anywhere.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to ranja)

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