Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice?

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Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have ... - 2/13/2010 8:58:44 AM

LadyAngelika

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I've often heard/read, in relation to BDSM and other things related to sexual desires, people stating that they didn't chose a certain path -- being dominant, submissive, switch, vanilla, sado, maso, poly, gay, straight, bi, trans, etc.-- but that it chose them.

Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do.

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.

But if I'm starting this thread, it is to hear your ideas and thoughts on the subject.

- LA

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:08:09 AM

stella41b

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Well perhaps if you've suffered as much as the marginalized minority who definitely aren't part of the mainstream you might just understand.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:12:13 AM

DesFIP

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I'm hard wired straight, submissive and monogamous.

This is not cultural conditioning. I have no shame or guilt about sex, which is why humiliation isn't erotic to me.
I grew up in a gay community. Believe me, if I were gay or bi or fluid about gender, orientation etc I would not feel any need to suppress it.

This is who I am.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:15:39 AM

LillyoftheVally

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In relation to this I don't think it is a case of nature nurture both have the same end result you are what you are. Yes you can turn your back on what makes you happy, you can live an unfulfilled life you can ignore impulses and you can 'get therapy' to fix yourself. None of those things mitigates the thing you are.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:17:02 AM

Missokyst

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What she said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm hard wired straight, submissive and monogamous.

This is not cultural conditioning. I have no shame or guilt about sex, which is why humiliation isn't erotic to me.
I grew up in a gay community. Believe me, if I were gay or bi or fluid about gender, orientation etc I would not feel any need to suppress it.

This is who I am.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 5

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:21:31 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Well perhaps if you've suffered as much as the marginalized minority who definitely aren't part of the mainstream you might just understand.

That is quite an assumption on your part stella. Nevertheless, thanks for chiming in.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to stella41b)

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:22:02 AM

adx

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I think that most things are learned behaviors I do what I do because of how I interpreted the events of my life. So theirs some part that is just how you were born but most of it is learned.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:22:43 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.

I note that you say that you are "bisexual", so if you are equally attracted to men and women perhaps it is hard for you to fathom that some people are only attracted to one gender? I would suppose that if the world went crazy and only homosexual relationships were acceptable, and I had no choice but to be in an intimate relationship with another woman, well I suppose I could be celibate for the rest of my life. I suppose that could be my "choice".. I see it the same way with homosexuality.. homosexuals have about as much "choice" in being gay as I have in being hetro....

As far as my choice in being "submissive"... I was submissive before I pursued a kinky lifestyle. I had really kinky fantasies before I acted upon some of them, others I most likely will never act upon, but I still have them.... I have as much choice as to being submissive as I do being extroverted, or my level of intellect, or any other personality trait I possess. I could choose not to show my extrovertedness, I could choose not to display my intellect or get more educated, but that doesn't change who I am.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:23:09 AM

AnimusRex

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Its odd- when people say they chose their orientation, I guess that means there is a chance that they might have chosen the OTHER side. Sort of like saying I chose the Nissan Altima, which logically means I must have considered the Toyota Camry.

Meaning 90% of men chose to be straight, but only after thoughtful consideration of the benefits of sucking cock.

Hmm, that just doesn't square with my own observation or history. I do think a lot of our basic personality is hardwired into us, with some percentage left for personal choice.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:25:14 AM

wisdomtogive

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I might be a rarety here but BDSM was my choice, and continue choice. I thought long and hard after my first bdsm relationship dissolved, and decided to choose this avenue of expression verses vanilla, which has been part of the majority of my life. I could live both, as long as I was happy with the person, but there is something about D/s and M/s that I am drawn more too. Looking back in many ways, though vanilla, I always served another in one form or another.

I also like to state I am the type to always make a choice in anything I pursue to really become involved in.

wisdom

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:25:50 AM

DesFIP

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adx, I grew up in a gay community. If my gender orientation was learned, then I should be lesbian and a top. I'm not. This isn't learned, it's hard wired.

I will say that part of this appears to be genetic. Studies have found families in which there are homosexuals in every generation. And there are families like mine where there aren't any.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:26:57 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.

I note that you say that you are "bisexual", so if you are equally attracted to men and women perhaps it is hard for you to fathom that some people are only attracted to one gender?

I actually have no problem at all accepting this. I like the Kinsey scale as it makes a lot of sense to me. I consider myself somewhere around a Kinsey 2: Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual. But that wasn't an option in the CM drop down menu ;-)

The OP isn't meant to question anyone's orientation. I'm curious about origins, simply.

- LA

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:29:58 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

I also like to state I am the type to always make a choice in anything I pursue to really become involved in.

The reason why I agree with this statement is because for a while, I chose to seek relationships in the vanilla world. The thing is, it was easy to find men to be submissive to me. The sadomasochistic, not so much. But I could technically chose to take that out of my life, ergo, a lifestyle I chose.

Also, I do want to add that some choices take a lot more courage to make than others.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to wisdomtogive)

Post #: 13

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:30:47 AM

Jeffff

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I used to hang out in a guitar store. We would drink and play and bullshit. One night the question was posed, " If you died and your relatives were going through your stuff, which would be more embarrassing? They find you gay porn? or your banjo?"

It was decided that given the world and how it is, people are born gay and therefore not really embaressing..... but the banjo, is a CHOICE!

I hope this helps

Jeff

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:30:53 AM

stella41b

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My apologies I reread the OP a second time round.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:32:36 AM

LillyoftheVally

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I chose to seek relationships in the vanilla world. The thing is, it was easy to find men to be submissive to me. The sadomasochistic, not so much. But I could technically chose to take that out of my life, ergo, a lifestyle I chose.

You chose to seek them but did you choose what drives you to seek them

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 16

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:32:48 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

This isn't learned, it's hard wired.

I tend to agree with you that desires, our deepest impulses are more than likely hard wired. That's what I said in my OP.

I do know some women who most likely have a certain amount of bisexuality in them but who chose lesbian relationships as a result of having had bad relationships with men. While this is far from being the majority of lesbians, I've met more than my share that have openly admitted it to me.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 17

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:35:04 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

I'm curious about origins, simply.

This has been debated in the scientific community for some time, and there is a growing consensus that homosexuality is no more a choice than hetrosexuality... Like I said, if one tells someone they have to choose against their orientation it goes against something that is in the core of who they are, and I do not think it was nurtured into them....

There is also growing evidence that people are predisposed to certain personality traits and that these traits impact their choices. So being predisposed to being "submissive", for example, is a personality trait like being extroverted, or anal retentive, or an addicted personality is. What we choose to do with our natures is indeed a choice. But for most people it is highly uncomfortable to make themselves into something that they are not...It takes a lot of effort, and most of us never take on identities that are not our nature without a deep profound cost.

My view, most of what we are is in our DNA, our choices are highly influenced by this... look at studies of twins separated at birth and you can see what I mean....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 18

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:36:10 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
My apologies I reread the OP a second time round.

Ok good. Because the OP wasn't meant to put anyone down. I want to repost something I wrote a few posts up. I am fully conscious that some choices to live ourlives according to our true impulses and desires take a lot more courage to make than others.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 19

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/13/2010 9:40:36 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I'm curious about origins, simply.

This has been debated in the scientific community for some time, and there is a growing consensus that homosexuality is no more a choice than hetrosexuality... Like I said, if one tells someone they have to choose against their orientation it goes against something that is in the core of who they are, and I do not think it was nurtured into them....

True. Perhaps saying that I was curious about origins was not the proper way to phrase it. What I'm trying to say is that regardless of what we feel deep down inside, we either chose to do it or not.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 20

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