RE: Slavery is bullshit

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Slavery is bullshit

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Slavery is bullshit

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:01:18 PM

Posts: 266
Joined: 2/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

not being allowed to eat your favorite food or drink (think of chocolate, strawberries, french fries, milk shake, beer, wine, steak, cherries, watermelon, popcorn,

ya know SN i accepted my Master's dominance over my life....as His i have given up all of those things except the strawberries.....i am on a restrictive plan....which will increase my longevity and enhance my attractiveness to my Master.

i do what i do as a new slave willingly .....my joy is thru service ....and to be compliant and willing is pleasing to my Master. its all a win/win dontcha think?

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:05:30 PM

Posts: 266
Joined: 2/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

and start understanding the concept and you will find yourself understanding a little bit more of something you are ignorant about.

what is not being considered is that slavery IS a 'concept'
by SN anyway

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:16:23 PM

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Are there no authority figures in your life AT ALL? No cultural mores that dictate what you will or will not do? Look into the lives of women in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan.

I choose when will I go online, how long will I stay online, and what websites I visit.
I choose which books I read (except when I have to read something in college) - I am sometimes forced to read things that I don't want, but no one forbid me reading things that I want.
I choose which music I listen to (and I have a pretty good taste)
etc...

Most of the time I choose what will I do. They can force me to do what I don't want (in school, college, job, etc), but they can't forbid me from doing anything, except if this is illegal. Only the state ( and police) can forbid me to do something.

I wanted to keep both quotes because I think it goes to the heart of the matter.

SN, I honestly believe that you are an intelligent individual. You have obviously done an excellent job as far as your learning of English, even though it isn't your first language. Yet, I am surprised that you have difficulty comprehending what people are telling you. I do not know why this is and it seems a shame considering the other factors that I mentioned above.

Some people crave another person to have control and authority over them. The sense of belonging to another person is what they want most in their heart and soul. Some people are willing to give up things like certain authors of books, television, or hobbies because they know that they want what fulfills them most. I don't think that concept is too far away from those who are in love with their soul mate and if they had to choose life with that person or keeping a certain type of music played in the house, I'm betting that love is going to win. (I've seen that happen in the vanilla world. Two words for you. Gangsta rap.)

Another example from the non kink world. My (adult) son is currently in Basic Training for the US Army. Even before he went in, he knew that this time period meant that he would not be able to participate in his favorite hobbies, choose the music he hears, or eat the foods that he would like to eat. What is more important to him than all of that is that he has a goal of doing what he has wanted to do for such a long time. Serving his country. It means more to him than anything else and it's the life that he's chosen. All that other stuff is secondary.

Granted, this has areas where it applies and some that it does not. I just didn't want you to think that only people involved in M/s ever make a choice to live a certain kind of life and are willing to give up less important things when they are reaching for what they want the most.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:26:18 PM

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

I agree, LadyPact, there are more important and less important things.
There are priorities.
But, for some people there are things that are too important, and they simply can't accept not having them or not pursuing them.

Imagine if Mozart had a Mistress and she forbid him to compose music.
Or if Leonardo da Vinci had a Mistress who forbid him to paint.
These are extremes, but I tend to think that there are other things outside relationship, that you simply can't abandon.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:33:38 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
All things being equal, M/s or D/s operates the same way. The boundaries, control, structure, or decision making, being taken over in some way by the one in charge provides a sort of freedom for the other person

Carol would not agree with this. She doesn't want to be a slave. My dominance of her doesn't "free" her in any way. In fact, I think she largely finds it to be a pain in the ass. As near as I can tell, for her, it boils down to "I want a slave and being something other than what I want is unthinkable".

Well, OK... not fair. It does free her in ONE way although a very particular one. She very much dislikes having to pit her needs and desires against mine. So while she is perfectly comfortable making the vast majority of decisions in her life, the time it comes down to her vs. me she is freed from having to decide that.

For the record, I don't think Carol would experience anything even remotely like what UniqueRaven or BarelynAngel have talked about either. I have no idea what "defines a slave", and I'm ill inclined to go down the one true wayism path. All I can say is that for Carol it is exactly and only about one thing... being as perfect as she can be for me because that is her "nature". She doesn't give a rat's ass about obedience except insofar as I do. She really doesn't care about ANY of this. It's all about being my perfect mate.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 6:55:12 PM

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

SimplyMichael, I understand the concept of finding freedom inside the bondage. You are free of responsibility, you are just being, go with the flow, surrender, etc.

But still, being deprived of SOME things, is more important then this concept of freedom in bondage. Some things are really that important that you simply can't accept to be deprived of them.

That's why I am asking the ultimate and most important question as my final challenge to the concept of slavery:

If your Master wanted this, would you accept to never again in your life be allowed to see the second most important person in your life (after Master) whoever he/she is:
- for example: your mother, your father, your best and dearest friend, you dearest son or daughter (giving them to be adopted, for example), your sister, your brother, etc.
not just any of them, but exactly the one you love the most, and the one that is most dear and important to you

If the answer is "Yes", I would like you to explain me why.

Because he loves me and because of who he is, he would not demand those things of me unless they were necessary to my well being.

If he were not the sort of man that would ensure my ultimate well-being then I would not belong to him.

So if he told me to never contact my family again he would only do so because of a valid reason.

If he were the sort of man to simply demand that from me because he could, then for me that would no longer be taking care of me. It would be detrimental isolation that was not good for me.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:04:52 PM

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

While we use the terms master and slave, I have real trouble with the myth of slavery on so many levels.

Being a slave in no way meant you had anything but hatred and loathing for your master.
Being a slave in no way meant you were weak, gladiator's were slaves
Being a slave sometimes meant you knew more than you master, were more adept, were "more" in so many ways
Being a slave often meant you wanted to be free but society overrode your will to be free

Being a slave in the bdsm sense is an entirely different kettle of fish but most often smells at least as bad. I think it is a really awful term (although I admit it is hot) to use for what we use it for, which is someone who surrenders more deeply than a submissive.

But even that isn't true, one must step back and see where someone started. There are many here who think doormats are healthy, I am not one of them. Someone who will roll over on their back like some abused and terrified puppy doesn't have much to surrender. Its sort of like an adult bragging about beating a kid in some game, really, you want to brag about that?

Ownership is another interesting concept. Ownership of what exactly? You can own the body of a person pretty easy, owning the mind is another matter and again, what sort of mind are you owning and if you can own it, is it worth owning? I wouldn't want a woman who wanted me to make all the decisions, it would bore the fuck out of me, clearly for others, that is what they want.

I haven't had any coffee so none of this makes sense but considering the state of OPs lately, I figure this will be something of a high water mark.

Maybe it's because of the week I've had, but I'm having trouble really understanding the overall point here. Are you saying the use of the term "slave," as it is used in the BDSM context, is bullshit because it doesn't exactly mirror what the term meant historically? Do you negate the idea of consensual slavery? Are you proposing it be called something else?

I don't much care about labels anymore, or what anyone wants to call themselves, or how it compares to history, now, or the future. My relationship is framed by my owner, not by a word. The word "slave" is sometimes used in my case, at times, simply because it's easier, and represents (in my world, anyway) that someone has authority over my life.

Saying he owns my body, or my mind, etc., sounds cool, and gives an idea over the nature of us, but, well, it's not like there's legal documentation of the sort. He has authority over me, he has my focus and attention, he has my love, and he has my obedience. Mostly we just totally love each other, and blend well. He is my loving ruler and I'm his willing follower. Whatever anyone wants to call us, isn't all that important to us.

OK and I had to laugh at SN's internet question, since I'm the man's "Google girl." He wants to know something? I whip out my blackberry and Google it for him. He'd be doing himself a disservice if he didn't allow me that.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:14:00 PM

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
i have wished for quite some time that the BDSM community used terms other than "Master" and "slave" to describe the sort of 24/7 TPE relationship that i engage in.

I made this point as well, in a Gorean thread that equated BDSM slavery with historical slavery.

I guess most people recognize that historical slavery is a very different thing than WIITWD, whether you are BDSM or Gorean. Some don't though, some insist that a slave in our sense is exactly precisely the same thing as a slave in ancient Rome. I pretty much wore my fingers to the bone arguing the opposite and in the end, we agree to disagree.

But what I realized, is why we use the term. I mean, other subcultures, like the gay subculture, developed all sorts of code words and nicknames to describe their sorts of relationships- butch, twink, bear, and so on.

So why do so many of us insist on using so loaded and explosive a word as "slave"?

For the same reason we use "torture", "dungeon" and so on. Because the words themselves have an erotic charge to them- when we use words like this, is frames our reality, gives it the extra punch that people enjoy.

So people are going to continue to use these words, accurate or not, because it is exciting and enjoyable in a way that a newly coined word that means the same thing just doesn't.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:18:22 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
So why do so many of us insist on using so loaded and explosive a word as "slave"? For the same reason we use "torture", "dungeon" and so on. Because the words themselves have an erotic charge to them- when we use words like this, is frames our reality, gives it the extra punch that people enjoy.

Perhaps. But for me, who does not eroticize the whole thing, that answer falls short. I like owning a woman. In all ways that matter and in both of our heads I own carol. The word for an owned human is a "slave". That's the beginning and end of my reasoning. I'm acutely aware that in a wide variety of very material ways, what Carol and I do is not what was done in the old south in the USA. That doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is ownership of a female... ownership in the exactly literal sense of that... not as a BDSM-ism.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to AnimusRex)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:33:49 PM

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyjen30
i wanna fuck you!

Awww, rats. I saw that post immediately after mine and....never mind.

Leadership527-
You are right; whatever my thoughts are for the reasons people use these terms, can only cover- at best- a certain percentage. there just isn't any reality that covers everyone snugly and accurately.

Which pretty much sums up my response to the original post; people use these terms and adopt certain practices and customs because they are meangingful to them. Pointing out that it is historically innacurate is really missing the point.

The biggest myth of WIITWD isn't "slavery"- its that there exists a single commonly accepted code of behavior and customs that are universally shared and practiced by all of us who do it. Gather 3 different kinky people and you will get 4 opinions as to what it all means.

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:38:55 PM

Syrox

Posts: 260
Joined: 5/13/2010
Status: offline

One thing that DID stick out to me in the OP was that he seems to be under the wrong definition of ownership. If you go to Wal Mart (or indeed any other name brand retailer) and buy a TV, you then own it and can do as you please with it. In the BDSM sense that ownership is a gift. and a gift that can be removed at any time. Sure a TV serves.. It goves you things to watch when you are bored, but a Slave will preempt your desire through observation.

A persons submission is something you acquire, it is something that is given.

_____________________________

unless otherwise noted this has been a fast reply. brought to you by the letter M and the number 7.

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:40:06 PM

Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline

I find myself surprised to contribute to a thread as I don't say much here, usually. However I can answer this question about the internet.

I told one who is subordinate to me: you cannot use the internet, not now, not ever. There was a very sound reason for that decision. I explained. He did not agree. He obeyed. Yes, once in a while he says, "Oh i wish I had my own laptop." I nod and say, "its a shame you can't have one." how long has he not been allowed online: 15 yrs.

Yes, some of us appear a lot more fluffy in print than we are in person.

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:41:18 PM

Posts: 65
Joined: 6/5/2005
Status: offline

I am so upset to find out BDSM slaves are not real slaves. I had planned on being a harem dom later in life and then selling them to finance my retirement. If someone tells me the Burger King isn't true royalty I will give up on this whole interwebs thing.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:47:49 PM

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Perhaps. But for me, who does not eroticize the whole thing, that answer falls short. I like owning a woman. In all ways that matter and in both of our heads I own carol. The word for an owned human is a "slave". That's the beginning and end of my reasoning. I'm acutely aware that in a wide variety of very material ways, what Carol and I do is not what was done in the old south in the USA. That doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is ownership of a female... ownership in the exactly literal sense of that... not as a BDSM-ism.

First I want to clarify that I really don't care what terms you use to describe your relationship.

That being said, you don't "own" Carol. If someone stabbed her, you wouldn't be able to take him to civil court for damaging your property. What you have is a relationship where you are able to exercise control and in that sense saying "I own you" is nothing more than pillow talk, "own" sounds better to you than "control" just as "slave" sounds good to some people.

"Ownership" is a cultural construct and while it might be fun to say you own something, even if nobody actually recognizes your right of ownership, that doesn't make it objective fact. It just makes it the term that you prefer to apply to a relationship that is objectively regarded as "marriage."

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 7:55:35 PM

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Maybe it's because of the week I've had, but I'm having trouble really understanding the overall point here. Are you saying the use of the term "slave," as it is used in the BDSM context, is bullshit because it doesn't exactly mirror what the term meant historically?

Nope, quite the opposite. I am mocking those who want "historical slavery" in any form as if that is some standard worth attaining. That and I just wanted a long running thread.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 8:03:51 PM

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

I find myself surprised to contribute to a thread as I don't say much here, usually. However I can answer this question about the internet.

I told one who is subordinate to me: you cannot use the internet, not now, not ever. There was a very sound reason for that decision. I explained. He did not agree. He obeyed. Yes, once in a while he says, "Oh i wish I had my own laptop." I nod and say, "its a shame you can't have one." how long has he not been allowed online: 15 yrs.

Yes, some of us appear a lot more fluffy in print than we are in person.

Would you please explain to us your reason for forbidding him to use the Internet?

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 8:03:59 PM

Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Maybe it's because of the week I've had, but I'm having trouble really understanding the overall point here. Are you saying the use of the term "slave," as it is used in the BDSM context, is bullshit because it doesn't exactly mirror what the term meant historically?

Nope, quite the opposite. I am mocking those who want "historical slavery" in any form as if that is some standard worth attaining. That and I just wanted a long running thread.

I understand the appeal of the word 'slave', and I don't deny its connection with historical slavery (the connection, I think, is undeniable).

Yet I have found that I need my partner to enjoy her subjectivity (being subjected), and this cannot be more different than the conditions of historical slavery -- in fact, it's the exact opposite.

Herein, I think, lies the connection -- I think the notion of 'exact opposite' is extremely powerful. I think what many people in D/s are doing is (consciously or not) performing a type of dramatic reversal, using words like 'slave' as a kind of hinge around which to swing.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/28/2010 8:04:40 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 8:15:21 PM

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
These are REALLY hard things to do:

- stop using the Internet (already mentioned)
- not being allowed to eat your favorite food or drink (think of chocolate, strawberries, french fries, milk shake, beer, wine, steak, cherries, watermelon, popcorn,
orange juice, whatever is your favorite food or drink)
- not being allowed to listen to your favorite type of music or your favorite band or composer
- no more television
- no more movies (or only those that Master orders you to watch)
- reading only the books that Master approves of
- pursuing only the hobbies that Master approves of (erase your favorite hobbies from your memory, they are gone)
etc.

If your Master treated you this way, would you still be with him, or would you run for the hills ?

Or being required to use the internet.... Alandra and I are required to follow the boards (CM and FetLife) somedays that is true torture....

Most of my favorite food, I am required to have his permission prior to eating... no hardship there and he will say no just to watch me crave it and not be able to have it. He is a sadist after all.

As for the movies, television, music, books..... it is only what he will allow me to watch. I have some things that I like to watch and he will only allow it when he is not around.

Yes, I am only allowed to engage in the hobbies that he approves of. I was required to learn to ski a couple years ago. I didn't really want to do it. I was terrified of it and was shaking like mad each time I did it for several weeks. Now I love it.

Honestly, I get that you don't get it. I just don't get why it matters to you so much how some people live their life. It is my life and if I want to live my life giving all authority over it to another person, then why does it matter to you so much?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 8:20:50 PM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

In my last relationship, we did use "Master" and "slave," because I met his criteria for being a slave rather than a submissive. It isn't objective, someone else would probably have completely different requirements and expectations. The label wasn't really important to me, as much as being confident that I could realistically meet his expectations consistently. He did sometimes refer to me as "girl," "pet," "property," or just "mine." If he had chosen to call me his submissive, or "it," or "doormat," or something along those lines, I probably would have been fine with that. "Cunt," "fuckmeat," or other sexual-based verbal humiliation/endearments are ok in play, but I probably would have felt a bit weird about using one as my base relationship descriptor. I'm not really a fan of them even in play so far.

Socrates, my former Master rarely choose to micromanage the aspects you mentioned, but he had authority to deprive me of any of those things, or to order me to eat/watch/read/etc. something I disliked or was not interested in. I voted by absentee ballot, and if he had wished, I would have voted for the candidates he chose. If I were dating someone with very different political views, I might not have been as willing to cede control in that area. I also tried to take care of housekeeping chores, as well as anything that was boring or time-consuming that I could handle, such as researching things, standing in line at the DMV or other places, waiting through the prompts on the phone until I reached an actual person, and so forth. If someone invited me to an event, I usually asked if he would be welcome to come as well, and asked him for permission in case he had other plans for us.

He rarely forbid me the things I liked, or required something I actively disliked, but that was his choice, at his whim. I trusted him to be a reasonable person, and he very much wanted me to be happy and fulfilled. Knowing that he had the authority to be arbitrary, to have me do or not do something just because he felt like it, made me very conscious of his power over me. So, while I might have not enjoyed it on one level, it made me feel very good in other ways.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/28/2010 8:33:06 PM >

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 8:23:58 PM

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Most of my favorite food, I am required to have his permission prior to eating... no hardship there and he will say no just to watch me crave it and not be able to have it. He is a sadist after all.

How about if he decided that you would NEVER eat your favorite food, but only the food you find disgusting?
That you will NEVER listen to your favorite music, NEVER watch TV, and NEVER do all the other things that you like?

Would you still be with him?

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Slavery is bullshit

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

6.234