crazyml
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Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight
I am not aware of who Baumfree even is, (well maybe I heard of her but don't remember), however, logically speaking, if we are using the popular notion of chivalry, weuldn't those characteristics- the ones that devar listed and the ones you state of being 'well mannered, thoughtul' etc., be totally in line with that popular, modern notion of chivalry?
No, they are not "totally in line" with that popular, modern notion of chivalry. Of course they're not incompatible, but they are essentially describable more simply and accurately as good manners.
At the risk of repeating myself - the modern notion of chivalry does not simply imply good manners, it implies a set of values from the past. I went to pains to identify the qualities Zevar listed in his Baumfree post that cannot be exclusively tied to "chivalry" and indeed separated one which does have strong (or at least stronger) associations with chivalry - courtliness.
I'd also disagree with the claim that you're simply using the "modern understanding of chivalry" - Googling "chivalry" you get the following:
Wikipedia - begins "Chivalry[1] is a term related to the medieval institution of knighthood."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chivalry
1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms. 2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood. 3. the medieval system or institution of knighthood.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chivalry
1. The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.
2.a. The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
b. A manifestation of any of these qualities.
3. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.
quote:
I personally feel like people are trying to pick away at this conception, drawing tiny little straws over the details when it's really a quite clear concept.
It is obviously nothing like as clear as you think it is, otherwise there would have been no debate.
quote:
It's almost as if people are against it. Not surprising chivalry is dead in our narcissistic self-centered, immature society.
Yes, I am against "chivalry". It represents, to me, an outdated mode of conduct in which one set of rules was applied to one set of people and a completely different one to another. It represents the notion of women as "Property" which just seems foolish to me.
I personally think chivalry is bunk.
But here's the thing that perhaps some people might have trouble getting their heads around -
I'm in favor of good manners, loyalty, empathy. And like many I deplore the fact that people seem lass well mannered, loyal and empathetic than they used to be.
So, going back to the op... let's ask the questions again - but in two ways; "chivalry" and good manners...
1] Is chivalry unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?
Chivalry is unappealing to some because they think it's a load of archaic over-romanticised bollocks. Others, regard it as encompassing a set of values that every one should aspire to. Of course I think that the latter group is just silly.
1] are good manners unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?
I'd hope that good manners are appealing to everyone, but it's true that there are some D-types who seem woefully lacking in them, and (alas) some s-types who look for these oafish brutes - preferring them to the well mannered ones.
2] Is chivalry practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?
Yes, there are quite a few d-types that "practice" chivalry, they talk (some of them ad nauseam) about knightly values, "codes of honor".
There are others who don't practice it because they think it's silly.
2] Are good manners practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?
Yes, of course. There are loads of sensible, thoughtful, well mannered people within the BDSM community.
3] What do you believe the reasons are for chivalry not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?
Because "chivalry" represents a bastardised, over-romanticised set of values and practices that belong in the 14th century and not in the 21st.
3] What do you believe the reasons are for good manners not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?
Honestly, I don't think good manners are all that uncommon. Has there been a decline in "good manners" - Yes, I think (but have no statistical evidence) that there has been a decline in good manners over the past few decades. I think this is down to a range of things, parenting being the most crucial (The reason I will hold a door open for someone is partly because I half expect my mum's hand to appear from nowhere and cuff me round the ear if I don't).
I hope this helps to explain my point. I think there is a very very clear distinction to be made between "chivalry" and "good manners".
Now - this is just how I feel. And by rejecting chivalry so forcefully, I'm clearly making myself unattractive to females who are looking for a chap who believes in chivalry, and the loss (I've no doubt) is mine for sure. Fortunately there are D-types out there who really do aspire to chivalric values - and jolly good for them!
My ideal partner exhibits the following characteristics -
If I ever told her that she was not permitted to open the car door herself she'd tell me to fuck off or more likely just assume it was a joke. She would probably think that that was such a stupid thing to say that it had to be a joke.
If I ever spoke or wrote to her in pseudo-archaic language she'd laugh her ass off and call me a buffoon.
She would expect me to exhibit good manners and would be quite happy with the fact that I expect the same of her.
And that's ok - the guys who are into the whole cape over the puddle thing should have no problem finding gals who really dig that, and there appears to be no shortage of women who more than meet my criteria.
[Edited to fix the typos I found - apologies for the ones that I missed]
< Message edited by crazyml -- 8/4/2010 1:23:05 AM >
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