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Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture - 8/1/2010 4:10:54 PM

Zevar

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I read a reply in a thread that mentioned something which generated much thought about chivalry. I consider myself to be a gentleman master that does practice chivalry. I wanted to discuss this subject but would have hijacked the thread in doing so. Instead of hijacking the thread that generated my thoughts of chivalry I decided to give this thread a chance for chivalry to be discussed.

When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women.

Chivalry does seem to be unheard of and not widely practiced among men in the society of Western Culture. Among the BDSM Community chivalry surely seems to be not practiced at all. My question(s) herein below are presented in a sincere manner. I am wanting to determine if my perception is flawed when it comes to my perception of how chivalry is viewed and or practiced among the BDSM Community and in society of Western Culture.

1] Is chivalry unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?

2] Is chivalry practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?

3] What do you believe the reasons are for chivalry not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?

Perhaps my choice to begin this thread on chivalry is seen as though I am off base. However I do sincerely care to better understand the reasons behind the lack of chivalry being widely practiced here in society of Western Culture AND among the BDSM Community.

Finally if you think this thread to be totally extraneous do know that I post it with the hope of gaining a clearer insight into the subject of chivalry among the BDSM Community and within society of Western Culture.

Thank you!

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:13:34 PM

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Gonna do it all in one fell swoop my answers to 1 thru 4 are:

You are more likely to find chivas regal than chivalry in any general group, including BDSM groups.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:18:24 PM

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We don't do chivalry. We do common courtesy and respect.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:19:00 PM

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I've seen it, so it does exsist... but it is very rare.

I don't beleive it is any different in the lifestyle than in the rest of the population.

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:20:42 PM

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I find chivalry and other qualities such as wooing, seduction, etc. to be very absent in today's society.

I believe the reasons for this are myriad; among them our highly technological way of interacting with each other, the desire for immediate gratification, the abundance of choices out there and the sense of entitlement that people feel in being able to express themselves in any way, shape or form with no sense of how that will affect the person they are trying to get to know.

I also believe, and I am sure someone will be upset by this, that some men do not believe they need to be or can attempt to be chivalrous because of feminism. Many women don't want men to open doors for them, etc. And especially in D/s, I hear many women say they want a brute, a mean master type and being a gentleman does not register for them in their fantasy of what a Dom should be.

I personally believe that you can be a gentleman, be chivalrous and still be an effective Dom if you want to be.

People very often forget that we are not comprised of a group of labels, we are comprised of a group of personal characteristics that are a unique amalgam of what we present to the world.

It is a personal choice to be chivalrous or any other behavior and none of them are mutually exclusive of BDSM.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/1/2010 4:21:39 PM >

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:24:13 PM

Zevar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Gonna do it all in one fell swoop my answers to 1 thru 4 are:

You are more likely to find chivas regal than chivalry in any general group, including BDSM groups.

So you had a few shots of Chivas Regal Blended Scotch Whisky, aye? Say what? I only posted 3 questions not 1-4.

Thanks though. Your reply made me laugh indeed.

Be Well!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/1/2010 4:26:37 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:25:19 PM

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Chivalry is not dead in BDSM communities and Western society, it just is not common.

I think in the bdsm arena, many men get confused with the stereotype of being a big bad dominant. They seem to forget that submissives are also seeking security and safety. Those type of dominants are ones that I had no interest in when I was looking.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:28:28 PM

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My late dom had all the qualities posted, in spades, but if you met him, you probably wouldn't have seen it.
To me he was very chivalrous, and to other subs he was just as chivalrous.

With other doms, he showed chivalry when earned.

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:33:14 PM

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There are still chivalrous men, just much less of them. Like sexyred said, some of this has to do with feminism, and men's confusion over whether it is okay or manly to be chivalrous. Some men were not taught to be chivalrous. In some ways it is a lost art.

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(in reply to kiwisub12)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:35:38 PM

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And there are those of us, that say what is the point of being chivalrous? It aint likely to get me a blowjob, and I have enough friends.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:43:48 PM

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I think a lot of people confuse chivalry to mean manners and seduction.

Chivalry was a form of rules for knighthood which consisted of valor, piety, courtesy and chastity which then grew into courtly love which meant that a woman was to be unobtainable ensuring her chastity. Eventually chivalry became an outward show of public ceremony in jousting matches..aka....showing off, bragging.

Personally I don't see too much of any of this within bdsm, especially the chastity lol...ok, maybe the bragging through breast thumping among Doms in bdsm arenas lol.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:44:16 PM

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i dont think it has much to do with the scene specifically. there seems to be a lack of it in everyday life. As laurell said, there are the big bad Doms that forget the subs need security and to feel cherished. in the non scene related aspect, i expirenced a great deal of an extreme lack of respect for women, let alone chivalry. when i was in high school 3 years ago, "bitch" was a common word used for women, and often it was in a good sense. as somebody who was raised to expect and demand better from a man from both my mum and dad, my dating life was VERY limited.

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RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 4:49:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I think a lot of people confuse chivalry to mean manners and seduction.

Chivalry was a form of rules for knighthood which consisted of valor, piety, courtesy and chastity which then grew into courtly love which meant that a woman was to be unobtainable ensuring her chastity. Eventually chivalry became an outward show of public ceremony in jousting matches..aka....showing off, bragging.

Personally I don't see too much of any of this within bdsm, especially the chastity lol...ok, maybe the bragging through breast thumping among Doms in bdsm arenas lol.

LOL! Yeah, I do view the common accepted definition as a combination of 1 and 2 below. Great joke though.

chivalry [ˈʃɪvəlrɪ]
n pl -ries
1. (Historical Terms) the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp courage, honour, justice, and a readiness to help the weak
2. courteous behaviour, esp towards women
3. (Historical Terms) the medieval system and principles of knighthood
4. (Historical Terms) knights, noblemen, etc., collectively

Op you might want to define your idea of chivalry. If we're talking about skill at arms and noblemen..uh......

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/1/2010 4:50:02 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:01:48 PM

Zevar

Posts: 801
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I find chivalry and other qualities such as wooing, seduction, etc. to be very absent in today's society.

I believe the reasons for this are myriad; among them our highly technological way of interacting with each other, the desire for immediate gratification, the abundance of choices out there and the sense of entitlement that people feel in being able to express themselves in any way, shape or form with no sense of how that will affect the person they are trying to get to know.

I also believe, and I am sure someone will be upset by this, that some men do not believe they need to be or can attempt to be chivalrous because of feminism. Many women don't want men to open doors for them, etc. And especially in D/s, I hear many women say they want a brute, a mean master type and being a gentleman does not register for them in their fantasy of what a Dom should be.

I personally believe that you can be a gentleman, be chivalrous and still be an effective Dom if you want to be.

People very often forget that we are not comprised of a group of labels, we are comprised of a group of personal characteristics that are a unique amalgam of what we present to the world.

It is a personal choice to be chivalrous or any other behavior and none of them are mutually exclusive of BDSM.

Good day:

I agree that there is an absence of chivalry among men in society today. I also agree that feminism has played a role to a degree when it comes to re-defining the roles of men and women as is related to society and relationships. The expectations of roles in a relationships are rather blurred when it comes to society on the whole. There are no absolute roles between men and women thus chivalry cannot exist among an environment where society does not uphold the qualities of chivalry in a respectful and honorable position.

The equality of gender roles also plays a part in the extraction of chivalry in society. I understand that all people deserve to have equal human rights. I also believe that in having equal human rights that this does not change the role of a man or a woman when it comes to practicing chivalry.

There are differences in men and women that I acknowledge. These differences lend to what seems quite natural for some men and women. The thought of desiring a brute or mean master is common among some perhaps. It would seem that this is a learned fantasy role for some among the BDSM Community and not actually a natural desire that is chosen so that a woman forfeits being treated with the dignity that woman is due.

A gentleman can be brave, strong, refined, a leader and unrelenting dominant and remain chivalrous to women while knowing what that in him doing so this does not relinquish one iota of human rights in society afforded to women. I am of the thought that the differences in men and women brings about an order in realigning relationship roles which result in being satisfying on a level that naturally afford an arena for the qualities of chivalry to be unreservedly expressed.

Take good care of you!

(in reply to sexyred1)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:12:53 PM

Zevar

Posts: 801
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Chivalry is not dead in BDSM communities and Western society, it just is not common.

I think in the bdsm arena, many men get confused with the stereotype of being a big bad dominant. They seem to forget that submissives are also seeking security and safety. Those type of dominants are ones that I had no interest in when I was looking.

It is true that chivalry remains alive and active among some men. I being one. A lady deserves to be treated as such. Good choice indeed to avoid those who would decide to do any less.

Take good care of you!

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:18:29 PM

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Greetings Master,

This girl's Master came from BDSM prior to becoming Gorean and in both cases, he has always been chivalrous. Indeed one of this girl's rules is that she is not allowed in or out of the car unless he opens the door for her (or occasionally, gives her permission to let herself out if it is for some reason not expedient). He is the sort of man who holds open doors, shelters a girl with his umbrella, etc. Sometimes people have actually stopped him and commented about his opening the car door for his girl. It is indeed rather rare. But for this girl, it makes her feel more his and protected by him. It is definitely a quality this girl admires and looks for in a man.

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

in obsequium hominis

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:20:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

1] Is chivalry unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?

I prefer a gentleman's company. What I desire most is someone well bred who emits this through his character, speech, behavior, and demeanor towards others.

quote:

2] Is chivalry practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?

I didn't encounter the behavior often in dominant men within the community.

quote:

3] What do you believe the reasons are for chivalry not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?

There are a host of things we can pinpoint, but at the end of the day a man makes a choice on how he will conduct himself. In my opinion that is where the onus rests.

~porcelaine

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His will; my fate.

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:21:45 PM

Zevar

Posts: 801
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Op you might want to define your idea of chivalry. If we're talking about skill at arms and noblemen..uh......

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/1/2010 4:50:02 PM >

Good day laurell:

In reading my original words you will find the following is how I defined chivalry:

" When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women."

Take good care of you!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/1/2010 5:25:29 PM >

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:37:02 PM

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I find the men in my local - and not so very local-- community to be quite chivalrous. Much more so than men in the vanilla world.

I feel much safer at Fetish Circuit and The Woodshed ( Fetish/ BDSM clubs here in FL) than I do at any vanilla dance club because of it.

_____________________________

~Formerly KneelforAnne~

BDSM is what two people at the moment decide it should be...
--CatdeMedici

Member of the Subbie Mafia
Pimpette
Member of MoGa's IN crowd

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 5:44:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Op you might want to define your idea of chivalry. If we're talking about skill at arms and noblemen..uh......

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/1/2010 4:50:02 PM >

Good day laurell:

In reading my original words you will find the following is how I defined chivalry:

" When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women."

Take good care of you!

heh, that's what I get for skimming! Sorry!

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Zevar)

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