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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 2:26:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Circumcision is mutilation.

That anyone would circumcise a child seems extremely barbaric to me.

If a man wants to engage in body modification as an adult that's his choice to make. But to take that choice away from him as a child is criminal and abusive. The foreskin is part of a man's sex organ - it's supposed to be there. How would women feel about losing portions of their labia or vulva? Oh, female circumcision (aka "clitoridotomy") is wrong - okay. Well, how about we start respecting a man's right to his undamaged sex organ also?

This is an example of the current anti-circumcision culture -- sometimes irrational and hyperbolic.

I researched circumcision when both my sons were born. There is conflicting information and reports. Essentially there are some medical benefits to circumcision (ten times less likely to contract bladder infections as an infant, reduced likelihood of penile cancer which is already very rare, reduced chance if passing a specific virus that causes cervical cancer to sex partner, 8 times less likely to contract HIV, some protections against other STDs, etc.) but no overwhelming evidence it is a necessary procedure.

The down side is potentially less sensitivity in that area. Uncircumcised boys and men have to be more vigilant regarding hygiene.

The boys' father and I chose to have them circumcised for cultural, not medical, reasons. We spoke with the doctor doing the procedure and discussed the method used and the amount of foreskin to be impacted.

I don't feel I am barbaric or criminal or abusive or denying my sons a fulfilling and rewarding sex life at a future date. I have blown or fucked a lot of circumcised men, and never once have I heard one complain, "You know, I am just not enjoying this. I am just not sensitive enough. I wish I had more foreskin."

The most common type of female circumcision is excision of the clitoris and the labia minora, 80% of all cases. Typically it is done specifically to decrease or repress sexual desire in an effort to encourage virginity and/or maintain fidelity. Frequently it makes sexual activity painful. There are various other immediate and long term health risks and almost no documented benefits of any type.

I am not judging the right or wrongness of circumcision vs clitoridectomy. The two are simply not comparable.

(in reply to Chaingang)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 3:01:29 PM

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Personally, I have to disagree.

Male circumcision, is equally as barbaric to female. What you have described is a simple (or in reality - not so simple) cultural, locational difference.

The main difference in the procedures are that women are (usually) circumcised by a village elder or religious leader in FGM. Males in these cultures or similar are circumcised by similar people - you just hear about it alot less at the current time.

What you are speaking of is circumcision performed in a hospital by trained professionals with sterile equipment. Totally different situations. Even in the UK and in the States, it is still common practise to have the procedure done by a religious leader. Again, this is less 'spoken' about.

To deny that these atrocities (and that is what they are) occur even in a 'developed' country in the states, is not only doing these people an injustice, but also denying the pain and agony suffered by hundreds of children, women and men every year.

Whilst circumcision is largely attributed more recently to religious and cultural phenomenon, the origins of male circumcision was originally christian interference on the state as it was believed that circumcision prevented masturbation. More recently, it has been infered that the procedure is encouraged because of cost and was deemed as unethical.

Penile cancer is not lessened if the child is circumcised. This was a rumour that was flatly disputed by all major cancer research authorties. If you were sold circumcision on this basis within the USA after 1996, then the AAP have concluded that you should consider legal action as you may have a case agaisnt your consultant.

Certain STDs can be lessened by being circumcised, but the dip is marginal. Any male who maintains a healthy cleaning routine and sexual techniques is what is more important.

To conclude. Any genital mutilation - is just that.

Peace and Rapture.

Edit to add* Whilst FGM is often a more violent form of GM, males are 6 times more likely to be suffer circumcision violations.

I also cannot stress more. HIV infection is NOT lessened in circumcised males. About 10 years ago, there was many conflicting reports - however more recent investigation concluded this is not the case. This is based on the concept of men who have an STD are more likely to come into contact with the HIV infection and are also more likely to be weakened for the virus to take effect. Part of the myth has also alot to do with the HIV epidemic sweeping Africa.

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 6/13/2006 3:44:26 PM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 3:39:56 PM

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Just about every medical association in western Europe would disagree with you and there is a concensus that it is mutilation. The British Medical Assoc and other national medical associations all say the increased risk of deseases are a nonsense and without foundation. All associations are calling for circumcision to be banned on health grounds. Governments haven't because of sensitivities to religious and cultural groups which really is quite disgusting when they ban female circumcision (rightfully) irregardless of cultural sensitivities.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 4:05:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Just about every medical association in western Europe would disagree with you and there is a concensus that it is mutilation. The British Medical Assoc and other national medical associations all say the increased risk of deseases are a nonsense and without foundation. All associations are calling for circumcision to be banned on health grounds. Governments haven't because of sensitivities to religious and cultural groups which really is quite disgusting when they ban female circumcision (rightfully) irregardless of cultural sensitivities.

Could you provide references to support this claim?

From the BMA's own website:

quote:

Non-therapeutic circumcision
Male circumcision that is performed for any reason other than physical clinical need is termed non-therapeutic (or sometimes “ritual”) circumcision. Some people ask for non-therapeutic circumcision for religious reasons, some to incorporate a child into a community, and some want their sons to be like their fathers. Circumcision is a defining feature of some faiths.

There is a spectrum of views within the BMA’s membership about whether non-therapeutic male circumcision is a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure or whether it is superfluous, and whether it should ever be done on a child who is not capable of deciding for himself. The medical harms or benefits have not been unequivocally proven except to the extent that there are clear risks of harm if the procedure is done inexpertly. The Association has no policy on these issues. Indeed, it would be difficult to formulate a policy in the absence of unambiguously clear and consistent medical data on the implications of the intervention. As a general rule, however, the BMA believes that parents should be entitled to make choices about how best to promote their children’s interests, and it is for society to decide what limits should be imposed on parental choices.

I was circumcised as a child puely for tradition - like father, like son - and I don't have the slightest regret - in fact I am very happy because I understand that circumcision for an adult is not a pleasant experience.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 4:06:55 PM

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I have not seen the BMA agreeing it is mutilation here:

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/content/malecircumcision2003

I would be interested in documentation that "every medical association in Western Europe" agrees it is mutilation or that all associations are calling for it to be banned.

As I said, there are conflicting studies and conflicting positions. There is undoubtedly a shift against circumcision in the US over the past decade. I think parents having more information and considering all options and potential impact is a very good thing.

I think jumping on "barbaric and abusive parents mutilating their babies" is a bit of an overstatement and an emotional ploy.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 4:28:32 PM

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The BMA hold fast that they are strictly 'non policy' MC.

However... they also uphold.

quote:

Therefore, to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate.

If there is is no clinical reason for circumcision, and no theraputic value(other than extreme circumstances), why is it still perpetuated?

Money is one key issue. So is religious offense.

Neither are appropriate issues.

It is mutilation. There is no denying the fact. Body tattooes and piecings are mutilation. The difference here is that you have to be over 16 (or 18 in some places) to be legally tattooed or pierced. FGM and MC are under parental guidence. But it is a non consensual act - no two ways about it.

And as I previously mentioned - penile cancer since 1996 was denied and the AAP have recommend legal action suits..

Peace and Rapture

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 4:37:05 PM

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quote:

in fact I am very happy because I understand that circumcision for an adult is not a pleasant experience.

Brosco

This is again, another myth. Infant foreskin is - like a fingernail to the finger, fused. In adults this isnt the case as the foreskin seperates from the glans with the onset of puberty. Sensitivity in adult circumcisions is more than in adults who were circumcised at birth as there is excess tissue removal.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:14:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mskathy39
chaingang, remmoving the clitoris is completely different than removing useless skin.

"Useless skin"??? Are you deranged!

The foreskin is described as "a retractable double-layered fold of skin and mucous membrane that covers the glans penis and protects the urinary meatus when the penis is not erect." It's filled with loads of nerves: "At the end of foreskin there is a band of tissue called the ridged band which, according to one study, is rich in nerve endings called Meissner's corpuscles" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin

So seriously, do you have parts of your pussy that are mucous membrane containing sensitive nerve endings you wish to sacrifice to show your commitment to this procedure? I think not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mskathy39
...I WOULD NEVER GIVE HEAD TO A COCK WITH A FORESKIN!!!!!...

That's a really fucked up comment to make. Do you really wish to have comments like that made in kind about parts of your anatomy? Yeah, probably not...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips
I researched circumcision when both my sons were born....The boys' father and I chose to have them circumcised for cultural, not medical, reasons.

Great! And I would contend that it wasn't your decision to make. I would also contend that it was monstrously cruel and insensitive to rob your children of parts of their sex organs because of what YOU thought.

You modified their bodies without their consent. It's indefensible.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:33:23 PM

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quote:

I WOULD NEVER GIVE HEAD TO A COCK WITH A FORESKIN

People have preferences. Still, I find it rather silly or superficial that you might discount a sex act based on that. I mean, never is a strong word. What if he was your perfect wonderful domly dom One? You would reject true and lasting happiness based on an aspect of physical appearance?

I do know women that feel this way. (It has come up in casual penis conversation.) I have an uncircumcised male friend who reports several times this has been an issue for him. It is unfortunate. I also know one women who definitely prefers uncircumcised

quote:

I would also contend that it was monstrously cruel and insensitive to rob your children of parts of their sex organs because of what YOU thought.

You modified their bodies without their consent. It's indefensible.

I appreciate your opinion on this. However, I feel good about the decision.

< Message edited by Sensualips -- 6/13/2006 5:39:29 PM >

(in reply to Chaingang)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:34:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mskathy39

(I WOULD NEVER GIVE HEAD TO A COCK WITH A FORESKIN!!!!!)

That's too bad...my most recent lover, before Master, was uncircumcised. It was a great deal of fun giving him head. I loved to run my tongue under the foreskin before he was erect. Of course as his erection grew, the foreskin would recede, but when he was inside me I swear I could feel that bit of skin move! It was very erotic and not at all "gross" as I assumed it would be.

My newborn nephew was circumcised recently and the poor little guy looked awful afterward. He got an infection and was in a great deal of pain everytime that he peed! If I ever have a son (which is highly unlikely) I will not have him undergo this procedure. He can be taught, just as my sisters and I were, that you need to clean all folds of your skin in your nether regions.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:42:51 PM

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Actually, dark, most of the Jewish "covenants" are, in fact, for other reasons than those stated in the scripture. For example, the reason that Jews take their religion from their mothers is due to the trauma of rape. Slaves were raped and often found themselves pregnant as a result. Rather than add to the original trauma, the rabbis decided that the child would be accepted by the community; hence, the child (of the rape) was considered Jewish. Many, many of the dietary laws are for safety sake. I don't know for a fact that circumcision is due to a health reason, but I wouldn't doubt it.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:49:23 PM

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i've only ever had experience with 1 uncircumsized penis and

he had some major cleanliness issues. i had to find a way to tactfully get out of giving him head. How do you tell someone nicely that it smells funny?

i like circumsized but then can't really judge the other because of that one experience.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 5:51:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillysub183

quote:

ORIGINAL: enigmabrat

Honestly

it is a health issue
at least today it is and is why most do it...

Where is your evidence? Do you have a medical degree? Have you at least read an article to substantiate your claim? If you have read all of the posts you will see that is not true. As stated before, there is actually a decline in the practice in the United States and many European countries do not automatically circumcise male infants. Once again you post something as fact without a shred of evidence to support it. If you prefer a circumcised penis that is fine but don't get all indignant and present opinion as fact!

There is absolutely no medical reason to circumsize a penis period.

I educated myself throughly before the birth of my son in 1983 and made the choice not to circumsize. How I see it is that the foreskin is the way a human male is born and I think it is mutilation and an out-right human rights violation.

The public has been brainwashed to believe religeous and/or medical hogwash or that the circumsized penis is more attractive or healthy.
I for one think the practice should be out-lawed and looked at for what it is an act of violence prepatrated on an unknowing baby.
If a male grows up, educates himself and decides he really wants his penis circumsized, more power to him, it is his body and he has the right to make that choice. As a baby he has no voice and once that part of his body is taken, the damage is done for life.

I would hope any new mother to be would throughly educate themselves and make a decision they can live with. I just believe the male is born with forskin for a reason and it should be left intact. I would not want to and did not make such a decision for my son and unnecessarily torture him for any imaginary reason.

*Brightspot

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:18:35 PM

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brightspot,

I respect your opinion and since it is a controversial subject, medical associations do not push one way or another, though their members have strong opinions of both sides.

quote:

There is absolutely no medical reason to circumsize a penis period.

Not quite true - In the research I have done I would temper that to say there is no compelling reason.

quote:

I would hope any new mother to be would throughly educate themselves and make a decision they can live with. I just believe the male is born with forskin for a reason and it should be left intact. I would not want to and did not make such a decision for my son and unnecessarily torture him for any imaginary reason.

So would it be fair to say that you also wont inflict the unnecessary torture on your children to ensure that they have perfectly alligned teeth, when there is no medical reason involved, but just do it for cosmetic reasons?

quote:

I just believe the male is born with forskin for a reason

Humans are also born with appendix and tonsils that there is also no need for - they are both nonfunctioning organs that wouldn't work again even if our circumstances changed. Evolution will probably see that these disappear over thousands of years - just as will probably happen to the foreskin - it is no longer required as a protection to an early human that swung naked through the trees.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:27:27 PM

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Men in my age group and ethnic background are usually circumcised. I do not have a preference.. it just turned out that most men I know have been snipped.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:29:11 PM

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quote:

So would it be fair to say that you also wont inflict the unnecessary torture on your children to ensure that they have perfectly alligned teeth, when there is no medical reason involved, but just do it for cosmetic reasons?

I would have to say that this argument is a weak one - and a no brainer. I would not cosmetically enhance my child.

quote:

Humans are also born with appendix and tonsils that there is also no need for - they are both nonfunctioning organs that wouldn't work again even if our circumstances changed. Evolution will probably see that these disappear over thousands of years - just as will probably happen to the foreskin - it is no longer required as a protection to an early human that swung naked through the trees.

Brosco

Again - these items would not be removed and would be unethical to do so, although there are some practitioners who do so.

I am interested - those who have mutilated (and that is not ment as an offense but as an appropriate word.) yet are practitioners of BDSM. How do you justify the non consent issue with your decision?

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:37:53 PM

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quote:

I would hope any new mother to be would throughly educate themselves and make a decision they can live with.

We are in agreement. You and I just made different choices. I am very comfortable with that.

It seems referring to it as torture seems a bit strong.

Anecdotally there are all kinds of scenarios to support both sides. An acquaintance of mine was married to a man who felt robbed of his foreskin and was actually undergoing a process to try and regrow it. Another friend of mine opted not to have it done with either of her boys and they both chose to do it when in high school. Both really, REALLY wished mom had taken care of it at birth.

In college I worked at a child care center. There were two uncut boys in the center. Both were prone to infections. One was in my toddler class. Mid morning during a diaper change he looked fine. He fussed a lot during nap time, and at post nap diaper changing time we saw his genitals had reddened and swelled up -- the head of his penis/foreskin was almost the size of tennis ball. I am not sure about him, but it was traumatic for me! ;) I am sure this is a very rare reaction, but it was a visual that probably had some impact on my choice.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:42:34 PM

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quote:

I would have to say that this argument is a weak one - and a no brainer. I would not cosmetically enhance my child.

It is not a weak argument - it was a question about trend that is growing more and more.

quote:

Again - these items would not be removed and would be unethical to do so, although there are some practitioners who do so.

It used to be standard practice to remove these organs at the first hint of a problem -but will only be done now if necessary. This newer decision was not made on moral grounds, but medical ones. The medical decisions regarding circumcision have not found compelling reasons either way.

This leaves it as a choice of morals, values and tastes - and the only way to be answerred is as a person opinion - not as an opinion that should be rammed down the throats of all others as unquestionable fact.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:51:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

brightspot,

I respect your opinion and since it is a controversial subject, medical associations do not push one way or another, though their members have strong opinions of both sides.

quote:

There is absolutely no medical reason to circumsize a penis period.

Not quite true - In the research I have done I would temper that to say there is no compelling reason.

quote:

I would hope any new mother to be would throughly educate themselves and make a decision they can live with. I just believe the male is born with forskin for a reason and it should be left intact. I would not want to and did not make such a decision for my son and unnecessarily torture him for any imaginary reason.

So would it be fair to say that you also wont inflict the unnecessary torture on your children to ensure that they have perfectly alligned teeth, when there is no medical reason involved, but just do it for cosmetic reasons? My son has straight teeth, it wasn't an issue but I would Not have forced my son to get braces had they been crooked, he would have been educated and it would have been his decision.

quote:

I just believe the male is born with forskin for a reason

Humans are also born with appendix and tonsils that there is also no need for - they are both nonfunctioning organs that wouldn't work again even if our circumstances changed. Evolution will probably see that these disappear over thousands of years - just as will probably happen to the foreskin - it is no longer required as a protection to an early human that swung naked through the trees.

Okay if that is your rationalization, we could do away with the earlobes too.
Tonsils, appendix, gallbladder what have you are only removed when they are causing medical problems. (There is No medical reason to remove forskin from any heathy penis.)

So is it your opinion that because they have found these to be organs the body can Survive without that maybe we as parents should decide to have them all removed right after birth to avoid any possible trouble with them?

I think people who are circumsized or circumsized their son's want to make up chit to not really look at the horror circumsition Is!

I don't understand why a mother could not teach her son the importance of any personal hygiene including the cleansing of his forskin and penis. Sometimes I think it is fear of their son being different in the locker room or just uneasiness and laziness about teaching their son about their penis' health.
I think and I hope someday it will be the circumsized young male who will be looked at as odd and asked "why would your mother do such a thing to you?".

*Brightspot

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:55:03 PM

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Sensualips:

Male children are raised all over the world with their foreskins intact. It really isn't a big deal.

Justify it to yourself any way you please. What you did was gravely wrong and I think you know it. Sadly, it is not you alone that must live with that decision, but also your two boys.

Maybe now you can start with all of those parts of your own body that you don't need: eyebrows, hair, ears, tits, labia, vulva, nostrils, do you really need ten fingers and ten toes...?!

Absurd isn't it?

And that's the precise basis upon which you irreparably altered your two boys. Try as they might, they can NEVER regrow the nerves you had severed from their bodies.

Edit: Great minds think alike, Brightspot!

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 6/13/2006 6:57:11 PM >

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