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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 10:38:15 PM   
crumpets


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Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
There's a difference between getting noticed and stared at,

I'm not sure whom this was directed at, if anyone, but, I, for one, am aware that leering and looking and noticing are three different things.

1. Noticing is the biologically-programmed moment of recognition (of breasts, for example)
2. Looking is longer than the instantaneous second, and the purpose is intentional (to see more, for example)
3. Leering is a socially unacceptable length of time or demeanor (which I'll let you ladies define better than I can)
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Actually men also get noticed, if you walk into a computer store,

I've been "noticed" and it does feel uncomfortable.

Some of the most uncomfortable were during my trips to Asia, where the hotel staff practically swarmed around me, that I was actually "uncomfortable" about being noticed. Also, walking down a NYC or Tijuana street where the street vendors swarm all over you, is a bit of the type of notice that became uncomfortable for me.

But, for the most part, I could walk anywhere at any time and nobody would notice me no matter what I was wearing (as long as it's socially acceptable).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Being noticed is perfectly fine, a guy staring at you and you can see him mentally removing your clothes, not so nice...

The devil is in the details.

And, you're gonna get the details from "my" male perspective (which is not a female perspective in the least).

I have seen women walking in the street who were wearing clothes that kept malfunctioning with every step, where there was a slit strategically designed to show more skin or a hem strategically designed to flare up in the wind or a bodice strategically designed to malfunction periodically so that you could see nipples if you kept watching long enough or a skirt so short that it was strategically designed to give you a glimpse of panty if you looked long enough, etc.

Then again, a woman can be wearing jeans and a polo and there's nothing strategically designed there to keep my interest, so, my eye will instantly give up on her as there's nothing new to be seen. No need to dilly dally. Move on. Nothing here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm not sure if you have sisters you are close with, or maybe your mom, or imagine you have a daughter, if the way a guy stares at her would make you a go "I think not", then don't do it yourself to a woman.

I have plenty of all of the above, having come from a strict Roman Catholic upbringing where effective birth control is a no no and the men are as horny as dogs.

Funny thing, when I start to complain that they are wearing skirts too shorts or tops too revealing, when you drive them to a dance (years ago), you find most of the other girls are actually dressed, literally, "as" sluts; so, a too-short skirt for a 16 year old is the least of the issues, by way of comparison to what the rest of the girls are (not) wearing.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 11:32:35 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Christ, the whining in this thread is pathetic.

"Waaahhhh... women make less than men for the same work" - no they don't, this has been comprehensively debunked. Anyone whining about the gender pay gap is either mathematically illiterate or just plain stupid.

I never did. To the best of my knowledge, I've always made the same pay as men doing the same job. When I got better raises, it was because my numbers were better. I'm pretty stubborn at being good at what I do.

quote:

"Waahhhh... one in five women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime" - no, it's more like 1 in 40. This is another comprehensive piece of bullshit that goes back several decades and has ZERO statistical basis. It was invented by another nutso feminist and has been repeated ad infinitum despite never being validated ONCE.

No, hon, it's not. Even if you just took the stats of what actually gets reported, you're way off. Google is your friend, bro. Check out how many *people* reported sexual assault in the last year. Those numbers make decent people want to vomit.

quote:

"Waaaahhh... life isn't fair because I can't wander around naked and drunk without being assaulted" - Most adults understand that ultimately we're responsible for ourselves. Expecting society to take care of you when you're exhibiting poor judgment is the essential mindset of the girl-child. Most crime - from theft to assault - occurs because of opportunity. Consequently adults realise they have to lock up their doors, be mindful of their financial transactions and not put themselves in dangerous situations.

When's the last time you've ever heard of me wandering around naked in public? I've been naked at a couple of house parties (with privacy fence) and one time at the Colorado hot springs in the last fifteen years. I can assure you that most people don't want to see my ass.

quote:

What I find ironic is that it's the same damaged women who argue that women are equal to men.... except for these specific examples where they need special consideration and help. Irony much?

That's bullshit. I'd actually like to see men report more. A lot of them don't come forward, so it can be really bad for them.

I'm going to say it again. This is not a gender issue. This is a people issue.


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(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 12:51:39 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
You must be walking like John Wayne...

I wear loose pants, and my 505 jeans aren't expressly designed to periodically malfunction just so that the opposite sex can catch a glimpse of my lovely balls.

I also don't wear a push-up-jock strap so that the luscious shape of my balls can look larger and more full than they really are.

Furthermore, I am not contemplating surgery to have a "ball job", where they put silicone or saline pads to make my lovely balls look even fuller, softer, and more attractive to the opposite sex.

Unfortunately, because I don't habitually wear clothes expressly designed to give women a view of my balls via periodic wardrobe malfunctions which ever so tantalizingly reveal the true color, size, and pulchritudinous shape of my cock and balls, I don't garner anything like the attention that I would like, so, I pass by women wholly unnoticed, even though I'm carrying a large secret with me everywhere I go.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I always thought breast are just breasts, they grow on us like some guys have hair on their chest, it's just different to our chests, I don't find hairy or smooth chests a sexual characteristic, they're just men's chests.

If you actually think that way, that breasts are, essentially, not sexual, then that's probably because you are not a man nor a lesbian woman.

Clearly human female breasts have no other purpose than to be sexual, despite many women incorrectly stating that they're for babies to drink milk (this has been disproved long ago, and logic tells us why full-time breasts exists mainly only in humans anyway).

I won't delve down the sometimes contentious evolutionary reasons that human breasts evolved to be full time, but I will note that ANY size breast has milk enough for a baby and that breasts only show up during puberty, as you're well aware.

So did the hair on my balls, by the way, which makes the pubic hair a sexual characteristic that women, in my day, left alone. (Why they shave it all away nowadays is somewhat beyond my comprehension; but that's an altogether different topic.)

Lest anyone be confused by my only-half-joking description above, breasts ARE sexual characteristics, and anyone who says they're not doesn't understand men well enough yet.

*****Ah ah! That's not allowed.*****

If full-time (after puberty, of course) overly large and obvious breasts weren't sexual characteristics, they wouldn't exist (and they don't, in most lactating mammals, unless artificially maintained, as in cows, for other purposes).
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Your cock would be the equivalent of our clit, we don't walk around flashing it about, usually the girls who do get filmed and paid.

Well, if we're gonna dive into detail, then a cock contains a urethra, whereas a clit doesn't.

And, the urethra is pretty much just above the vagina, so, we'd have to say a cock and balls assemblage is pretty much roughly equivalent to a pussy.

Even the ball sac, I believe, is equivalent to your labia (although I would have to look it up to be sure, if someone were to disagree).

About the only things missing in this one-to-one comparison are the testicles, which are equivalent to your ovaries, which, in your case, are tucked away further up into your abdomen, which is not a sexual part of your body.

So, pretty much, my cock and your pussy are pretty much equivalent.

You have, of course, ADDITIONAL sexual organs, which are your lactating breasts.
Mine don't lactate (not much, anyway).
Mine aren't sexually aroused (anyone want to really piss me off, just start fiddling with my nipples - it's downright annoying!).

While I certainly am aware that some men are actually aroused by nipple stimulation, in "my" body, the nipple is like my fingernail... i.e., totally devoid of sexual connections.

However, I have never met a female whose nipples were devoid of sexual connection (I'm sure they exist, but if they do, I haven't met one).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Seriously, I don't get the whole fascination some guys have with breasts

I don't get it either.
They're just lumps of fat with a cherry on top.

But, if you showed me yours, I'd have a hardon in a second, whether or not I understand them.

We men can look at tits all day, every day, and every single teat is as interesting as anything we've ever contemplated in our entire lives. Every single one. They never get boring. Never. From puberty, until we're dead.

Tits are sexually arousing, and extremely interesting to we men.
And women know that, because they flaunt them in our face every single day. Almost every article of women's clothing is designed to promote their teats. Add a few items of underclothing to that list. And then add surgery below the skin.

Women go to great lengths to shove their tits in our faces.

Worse, with respect to the topic at hand, if you are flaunting your teats, and then you bent over, and your strategically designed wardrobe malfunction allowed me to see an inch more of whatever you have, I'd be looking.

Even worse than that, I'd be looking for nipple.

Yup. Nipple. Why? Dunno. It's just what we look for. Nipple. That's the cherry on top of the icing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
As for cock cleavage in black vinyl g-strings, I hope you don't wear them to cocktail parties since you equate them with cocktail dresses, unless you move in drastically different circles, I don't think it's the proper attire...

My point was that the raison d'etre for cleavage to be shown while wearing a cocktail dress is purely to promote sexual characteristics that men find desirable. There is no other reason. Not fashion. No comfort. Not style. It's sexual. Pure and simple.

Do you dress per-pubescent girls that way? I hope not.

That you might not think that a cocktail dress designed to show cleavage is promoting your sexuality merely means you're not a man, or more to the point, you don't think like a man does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
You're not really up on fashion or female fashion, but most cocktail dresses tend to have cleavage, it's pretty difficult to find one that doesn't

I know nothing about fashion.
But, in this case, it doesn't matter.
Cleavage has only one purpose, and it's not comfort.
It's not style either (most women's styles directly promote their sexuality).

As I noted, full-time tits don't have any other reason for existing other than to promote female sexuality. That you might not think so is understandable, but, rest assured, when a guy wants to touch them or suckle on them, his reasons have nothing (per se) to do with babies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
for women there are different dress codes and wearing a baggy t-shirt over a cocktail dress is generally considered a fashion faux pas.

I fully understand that women's dress habitually promotes their sexual organs.

In fact, women from the time they are teens often dress like prostitutes (we have been down this road before), because both are promoting the very same thing.

In fact, it irks me when I see people greeting young girls and saying "oh you're so pretty" when they wear a frilly dress, as if dress is even in the least important. They almost never say to a boy "oh, you're so handsome". Sure, it happens (mostly from relatives who haven't seen the boys in a while), but, mostly it's the girls who get their "value" from what they look like.

For boys, it's "You play football? You any good?".
For we men, we tout what we can "do", not how luscious our balls are to the opposite sex.

So, at a cocktail party, a guy is much more apt to wear his medals on his chest, than to wear a strapless gown that shows off his chest.
If women look at "them", we're happy to explain each and every one of them, even if she does appear to be leering at our chest full of medals (she's much more likely to be leering at our fancy house, vineyard, and pool than our chest though).


< Message edited by M38284 -- 11/30/2015 7:30:39 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 1:02:46 AM   
sexyred1


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This thread is so enlightening.

I am so happy to be a woman.

I can wear whatever I want, for any reason I want. I love showing off my assets. I've been looked at, gazed at, leered at, approached in all types of ways and places. I've been grabbed in different locations and men actually masturbated while looking at me on subways.

I've almost been assaulted by assholes who a. Lost their self control, didn't comprehend the word no and b. I let myself be placed in an unsafe place with someone I shouldn't have trusted.

I performed better than men at my career. I divorced my husband and refused alimony, because strangely, I can take of myself.

I've known how to protect myself from childhood. I used my own birth control no matter what.

I will be kind, sweet and diplomatic when warranted, but have no fear telling any man off.

I've made more money and less money than my partners. I appreciate that being a woman gives me some advantages, but I am smart enough to know that sexism will never go away. Many people like to play the victim.

What the responses on this and myriad other threads like this one provide me with is how clueless, whiny, and jealous some men are.

It is apparent that insecurity, lack of social graces and lack of self awareness just continues to flow in these waters.

I would hate to be most men. It must be so difficult feeling like victims with women.




(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 1:32:15 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I would hate to be most men. It must be so difficult feeling like victims with women.


I'm not sure whom that was directed to, if anyone, but, I, for one, don't consider my explanation whining.

I'm perfectly happy that women wear clothes designed to malfunction constantly, so that I can catch a glimpse of their sexual organs.

What I'm trying to counter is the professed ignorance some women display as to what they're actually doing, day in and day out, and, then, their shock (oh, the shock of it all!) that men are actually looking at them.

This whole thread is about men "leering" at women, sexually.
It's not a whine by men.

It's actually a whine, by women (or, at least it started that way).

It's a perfectly valid whine by the way; I'm just explaining the other side, as I see it from my branch of the tree.


< Message edited by crumpets -- 11/29/2015 1:33:58 AM >

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 1:47:28 AM   
crumpets


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Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2
$5 says carpecoma is a crumpets sock.


If you really believe that, I'd say you have no concept of how a viable argument is structured, nor of the myriad intricacies of the English language used when making counter points, where those who know me can tell my posts and my descriptive mails perfectly as distinguished from otherwise uneducated babble.

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 6:58:38 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

This thread is so enlightening.

I am so happy to be a woman.

I can wear whatever I want, for any reason I want. I love showing off my assets. I've been looked at, gazed at, leered at, approached in all types of ways and places. I've been grabbed in different locations and men actually masturbated while looking at me on subways.

I've almost been assaulted by assholes who a. Lost their self control, didn't comprehend the word no and b. I let myself be placed in an unsafe place with someone I shouldn't have trusted.

I performed better than men at my career. I divorced my husband and refused alimony, because strangely, I can take of myself.

I've known how to protect myself from childhood. I used my own birth control no matter what.

I will be kind, sweet and diplomatic when warranted, but have no fear telling any man off.

I've made more money and less money than my partners. I appreciate that being a woman gives me some advantages, but I am smart enough to know that sexism will never go away. Many people like to play the victim.

What the responses on this and myriad other threads like this one provide me with is how clueless, whiny, and jealous some men are.

It is apparent that insecurity, lack of social graces and lack of self awareness just continues to flow in these waters.

I would hate to be most men. It must be so difficult feeling like victims with women.




I absolutely agree, apart from the flaunting part, I don't tend to flaunt my assets, because in a professional environment it's a career killer, if it's hot, I tend to wear shorts but make sure they aren't too short, because being stared and leered at makes me uncomfy, if I'm out and about, I do things, I'm not looking for a pickup, in fact if I go out with hubby, I might wear more figure hugging clothes because a) he likes it b) with him next to me I don't have to deal with guys coming on, and I think every woman has encountered how guys can turn on you if you politely let them know you aren't interested.

I don't know why some bottom dwelling knuckle draggers are trying to blame all rapes on the victims, most rapes don't happen because a woman wanders naked and drunk into a dark street, in fact I haven't heard of one single incident like that. I had a few incidents where a guy got physically forceful when I wasn't interested, not a single time was I dressed revealing, one incident was when I was a student and came back from university, the busses were overcrowded and I walked home, took a shortcut (it was freezing) through some dark streets, according to some apes, obviously I must have asked for it, you know the travesty of a woman getting a higher education and not being chained to the sink. I can take care of myself and in that incident the guys testicles were possibly up where his tonsils are. The reason why it was dark was because it was winter, and I unless you consider a big duffle coat, sturdy boots and a wool hat revealing, I don't think I was flaunting anything, in fact I looked more like a shapeless bundle of clothes.
The last incident happened not too long ago, it was after a funeral, a friend had lost her mom and I was sitting with her and some friends in a bistro and consoling her, on the way home a guy decided to grab me, again a long black coat and coming from a funeral isn't exactly dressing up sexy or an excuse to grab my arm, touch me in the chest region and try to press a nicotine and booze stinking tongue into my mouth, it didn't happen in a ghetto but on the way home through a quiet, upmarket area. Let's just say I wasn't harmed, he was, less by me (I only placed my elbow into his solar plexus) but by the male friend who came after me because I had forgotten my gloves in the bistro and he thought he could catch up with me, said guy (a cop) went a bit nuts on the creep.
I've been approached a couple of times when it was dark in the park, I usually walk the dogs there and let them roam a bit as they don't hunt, my attire then tends to be a long shapeless Barbour, jeans and wellingtons, not exactly clothes that scream "I'm looking for a sexual hookup - take me you stud", never been worried because one whistle and a pack of Dobermans is there, but why should a woman not be able to walk alone? The park is surrounded by residential areas, a lot of people use it as a short cut, a woman might just want to walk because she wants to clear her head, she likes the exercise, just like a man.

Looking at this threat, I am just so effing grateful for hubby, he has none of the hangups, if I earn more than he does, he laughs and jokes that he's looking forward to being a kept man, with previous dates that was often a real problem, guys thought they were emasculated... For a while I was consulting blue chip companies, I had access to the personnel files and wages (if a company prunes and streamlines and they bring somebody in from outside, that all plays a part), and three is a discrepancy when it comes to earnings, also when it comes to letting people go, fairly often somebody from management will argue that the guys have families to support... How 1950's...

To simply accept things because they are like that is a bunch of BS, it's counter-productive, if something works fine, but it possibly can be made better, but the fact that women do have to worry about rape, that they have to worry about what they wear or else get blamed for being raped, that is just NOT acceptable. To claim they are responsible because some guys can't control themselves is a lot of crap.

I wonder where all the massive advantage we are supposed to have are hidden, none of the promotions or jobs I ever got (apart maybe from bartending as student) were because I'm having 2 X chromosomes, but because I could do the job. And pretty often the same kind of speech a guy would accept from another guy without blinking an eye (regarding work performance and such) had me accused of being a ballbuster, funny old world... So somebody opening the door for me (which I do for others as well), standing up when I leave the table and all that, those are just social graces. Yes, guys might offer me drinks if I walk into a bar, but oh wow, that really makes my life better exactly how?

Another example is children, we don't have them and won't have them, hubby never gets asked why not, apparently it's perfectly fine to question me about it...

Or recently hubby wanted to promote a woman on his team, it's a very male environment, quite specialized and she's very good, according to him all the codes she delivers are better than those of the guys in the team, he said there were a bunch of comments, only half joking, about them being more than colleagues and how it would go down with the guys if she gets promoted. Shows how much equality really exists in the work place....

Apparently some guys aren't quite up to the game and really have a problem if women can be pretty independent and successful, despite the sexism that still exists, they couldn't scream any louder that deep down they are battling with fear of women and some serious inferiority complexes (though it might not just a complex but based in reality).

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(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 9:38:08 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
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FR

The reason I opened my post as I did was to point out that I was completely on the side of the author of the blog post that I linked. I thought it was indisputable. But I kept an open mind and sought out an opposing opinion - just for funsies.

@LadyConstanze

1. I'm pretty certain Awareness is real.

2. I didn't say men worry about being raped.

3. Nor did I suggest that men continue "creepy" behavior. I suggested that perhaps it's worth examination as to whether their behavior is actually creepy - or if we just label it as such. I was hoping for some sort of discussion beyond "But rape!" Wrong crowd, I guess.


@crazyml

1. Maybe there is a lot of rational discussion out there. If so, please point me to it. And I mean that. I don't seek out discussions like this so I'm only seeing what crosses my various social media feeds and discussion boards. The frothing at the mouth type of response to anything in opposition of men being oppressive creeps is so well-publicized that perhaps you're right and I'm not seeing the more open-minded discussions.

2. You say that it's perfectly okay to expect people to change their behavior based on how people perceive it. But, is it okay then, to ask women to keep their cleavage nicely covered so that they won't be perceived as asking for attention? Why, in the case of creepy boob ogling, is it the man's behavior that should change, not the woman's?

3. LOL - Who would like to be the one to tell Awareness he's married to a feminist? Listen, I'm sure that I must align in some ways because I live in New England in the year 2015. I am a product of my environment. But, even without having the "Am I a femininst" checklist handy, I am 100% certain that any self-respecting feminist would kick me out of the clubhouse pretty quickly.

@CarpeComa

Or rather, in reference to CarpeComa

I see a number of replies expressing outrage that CarpeComa won't wear a condom. He expressed concern over the ability for a woman to deceive him by lying about taking oral contraceptives. But I don't see his refusal to wear a condom.




(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 10:31:49 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
FR:
I see a lot of victim blaming here.


There is an assumption scattered through this thread by various posters that some men just can't over-ride their lizard brains when a woman's curves cross their line of sight.
Is that really a defense for the various behaviors that have been discussed here?
They can't help themselves?
As a society, we have to control a lot of our impulses to stay within the spaces of ethical, legal and moral guidelines.


Personal responsibility does not mean if a woman is dressed provocatively and happens to be intoxicated, she is asking for 'it'. Or that if a woman is sober and is dressed provocatively, or is completely wasted and is dressed conservatively... . No one deserves to be sexually assaulted.
And as a society we shouldn't withhold our compassion because s/he did or didn't do something reckless.





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(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 10:41:56 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Joined: 2/18/2005
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1. My sincere condolences, not something I would wish on anyone, but then I never liked emotional masochism
2. As long as men don't understand that particular fear, there is little hope that some of them understand. I've been in situations where it was close, I wasn't intoxicated, scantily dressed, courting danger, I was walking home at reasonable times. I don't quite understand how performance anxiety feels for a guy, it doesn't mean that I poopoo it away and tell them that they need to pretend it doesn't exist.
3. If behaviour of some make a large part of the population feel creeped out, it's not unreasonable to think it is creepy and they need to change, you wouldn't expect somebody with a different skin colour to put up with racist slurs or them be treated differently (at least I hope you wouldn't) and not consider it creepy and suggest that they just get comfortable with it...

As for the cover up, you know why not simply suggest that women wear burkas, so men aren't tempted to stare? I don't tend to flash excessive cleavage but I don't want to dress all the time in shapeless garments, just because SOME men otherwise feel it's an invitation to oogle me, whistle and make sexual remarks, so women should be very uncomfortable in the summer, dress in a way that camouflages their shape rather than men having a basic minimum of manners?
I much prefer my solution, confronting them, you know a guy staring at my tits, looking him straight into the eye and saying "The way you are staring at my breasts, I assume you aren't familiar with what they are, mammary glands, would you like me to give you some cash so you can buy yourself a magazine and familiarize yourself?" Works wonders... Because often the stares aren't just sexual attraction but they are intimidation tactics, something that happened during a presentation once where a guy who had a problem with a woman being a bit higher up the ranks, so he tried to make me uncomfy by staring blatantly at my breasts - in a board room you really do not flash cleavage, if you're having a presentation that's about cutting costs, you were a pretty severe suit - once I stopped the presentation and asked him that question loudly in front of the whole board, he sputtered a bit, turned brick red and oddly enough he could keep his eyes focused on the presentation for the rest of the meeting.

I'm not denying that some women use sex as a weapon, but so do men and BOTH genders have the right to defend themselves against it, not just men.

As for the other dude not refusing to wear a condom, well, in that case why would he worry about being deceived? First of all it would be common sense to not share body fluids with somebody you don't trust enough, then the last time I checked, sex was not an individual exercise but more of a team sport with at least 2 participants (in case it's not, well hands or inflatable toys don't tend to get pregnant), assuming responsibility for your part of birth and disease control (remember he worried about husbands or boyfriends hunting him down) is simply what an adult would do. If you're taking the car and you go somewhere, of course you hope the other drivers are responsible as well, but you still wear a seatbelt and have an airbag in your car and use reasonable caution. Putting the whole responsibility of birth control on the other partner, especially if you don't know the person very well is nothing short of stupid.
As a woman, if you'd pick up a stranger, you wouldn't trust him if he'd say he's disease free and had a vasectomy, it just would be stupid, so why would a guy rely on "Yeah, I'm on the pill...." She even might be, but she might have had the flu or the runs, a bad meal...

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 12:01:58 PM   
Svale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

So, breasts will ALWAYS be looked at because they're INTERESTING. In fact, nature designed the system that way (it's the reason why women of non-childbearing age don't yet have them).



Nature did not, in fact. design the system that way. In American culture women's breast are highly sexualized, but not in all.
As you yourself note, they are meant for baby food.

I do not think it matters what you wear, you wear it for yourself, not for other people, and they are responsible for where their eyes are going.

(in reply to crumpets)
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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 12:06:38 PM   
Svale


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Joined: 4/7/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Akasha, I think it would be in the best interest of this thread if the men would open accounts on a gay dating site and post pics in tight jeans and see wot happens.




Further to the train of thought -- how many straight guys have been uncomfortably hit on or leered at by gay guys in their lifetime? Imagine if it was all the time?

Moreso--- there are obviously a lot of gay men out there that control themselves and do not stare or make comments because they cannot be sure if the man may be straight or not interested and they realize it's rude. If these men can control themselves, why can't straight guys when looking at a woman?




Look at this article: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/27/queer-men-like-victims-street-harassment-nobody-talks-about

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 1:28:11 PM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3315
Joined: 7/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Svale


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

So, breasts will ALWAYS be looked at because they're INTERESTING. In fact, nature designed the system that way (it's the reason why women of non-childbearing age don't yet have them).



Nature did not, in fact. design the system that way. In American culture women's breast are highly sexualized, but not in all.
As you yourself note, they are meant for baby food.

I do not think it matters what you wear, you wear it for yourself, not for other people, and they are responsible for where their eyes are going.


I personally find birth defects interesting to look at; physical appearances beyond the "norm". I do not believe people with such conditions are obligated to cover themselves up in order to avoid intriguing me. I do regard it as my obligation as part of a civilized culture to avoid looking at people's features that are out of the ordinary. I also believe I do not have the right to touch those interesting features.

Several posters here apparently would feel differently about the rights and obligations noted above. You know, we did come down from the trees awhile back. Attitudes might follow.


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(in reply to Svale)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 1:43:12 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

FR:
I see a lot of victim blaming here.
Expecting people to lock up their doors isn't victim blaming, it's expecting them to be an adult.
Expecting people to be vigilant about their financial transactions isn't victim blaming, it's expecting them to be an adult.
Expecting people to be vigilant about where, how and with whom they get drunk isn't victim blaming, it's expecting them to be an adult.

It is incumbent upon a woman - as it is incumbent upon us all - to be responsible for her personal safety. We do not live in a Utopian paradise.

quote:

There is an assumption scattered through this thread by various posters that some men just can't over-ride their lizard brains when a woman's curves cross their line of sight.
No. There is not. There is the implicit reality that those with power exert their will over those without.
Women possess sexual power and they certainly exert that power to achieve their ends.

Men possess physical power and are capable of exerting that power to achieve their ends.

There will ALWAYS be those who are prepared to do anything to get what they want. Even if those people are only 1% of the population, you're inevitably going to run into them and you're not going to know when you do.

The number of men who engage in sexual assault is vanishingly small. It is a minute proportion of the male population, however they can and do tend to do so on an ongoing and continual basis until caught. Education, shaming, bleating about rape culture and various histrionic nonsense is not going to alter the behaviour of these men one iota. They do not care. The only thing which stops them is lack of opportunity.

That is why women need to take personal responsibility for their safety. It's called being a fucking adult and there's absolutely no reason why women should be treated like girl-children who can't look after themselves.

quote:


Personal responsibility does not mean if a woman is dressed provocatively and happens to be intoxicated, she is asking for 'it'.
Nobody said it does. However it does mean that:

A) She's triggering sexual interest in the men around her. Sooner or later, she has a real chance of hitting the guy who'll translate that sexual interest into sexual assault.

B) She's compromised her ability to look after herself.

Combining these two things is wildly irresponsible. She's pushing her chances of being assaulted into the red. And the reason for that is because we live in an imperfect world in which people - both men and women - will do horrible, despicable things to each other.

The only thing which actually reduces sexual assault is encouraging women to take responsibility for their personal safety. And despite feminist screams of frustration, the difference here is that doing so ACTUALLY WORKS.

quote:


Or that if a woman is sober and is dressed provocatively, or is completely wasted and is dressed conservatively... . No one deserves to be sexually assaulted.
No-one deserves to be assaulted, have their money or possessions stolen or be lumbered with child support for 18 years by a woman who lied to them - but these things still happen.
quote:

And as a society we shouldn't withhold our compassion because s/he did or didn't do something reckless.
Oh really? Then why are all the damaged women in this thread quite ready to condemn men for not wrapping it? Apparently when women do something reckless they deserve compassion, but when men do something reckless.... fuck 'em, they're disposable anyway, amirite?

Honestly, to be a feminist is to kill your own humanity.

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(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 2:05:44 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2


I personally find birth defects interesting to look at; physical appearances beyond the "norm". I do not believe people with such conditions are obligated to cover themselves up in order to avoid intriguing me. I do regard it as my obligation as part of a civilized culture to avoid looking at people's features that are out of the ordinary. I also believe I do not have the right to touch those interesting features.

Several posters here apparently would feel differently about the rights and obligations noted above. You know, we did come down from the trees awhile back. Attitudes might follow.



I sometimes wonder what would happen if women would pointedly stare at men's crotches and loudly comment on the packages, size or lack of size, like some guys do with breasts, would it change their attitude? In case we see something we like, we could just grab and as justification say "if they don't like it, they can always wear something that camouflages their shape a bit better, because they wear pants that make their butts look nice, they want us to look and touch...."

I think the experiment would work even better if we'd get a few women to conduct the staring and groping who aren't very attractive, don't take personal hygiene very seriously (consider daily showers and brushing teeth as a waste of water). reek of stale smoke and sweat...

After that we check with the guys how it made them feel, I'm fairly sure most of them would need therapy...


_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to Spiritedsub2)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 2:11:19 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady

You say the 'vast majority' of men do not, and I stated 'the way men often do.' Since this IS a matter of perception, who are you to determine what constitutes the validity of a woman's emotional response to perceived harassment? The harasser, the dude who can't take no for an answer?
Try cocktail waitressing your way through college or working as a female bartender, and then come back on here to report your findings.



I took his meaning, in relation to this specific point, to be that anecdotal evidence or personal feeling does not necessarily reflect reality... or at least, a general trend experienced by all or even many.

At the beginning of your reply you dismissed him, saying "You know this because. . . you're a woman?"... but neither are you "All women", so you are only marginally more qualified to declare the validity, or invalidity, of a proposed cultural phenomenon.

I think it is always reasonable to ask ourselves if our personal experience applies to everyone before declaring an epidemic.

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(in reply to dreamlady)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 2:17:38 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I sometimes wonder what would happen if women would pointedly stare at men's crotches and loudly comment on the packages, size or lack of size, like some guys do with breasts, would it change their attitude? In case we see something we like, we could just grab and as justification say "if they don't like it, they can always wear something that camouflages their shape a bit better, because they wear pants that make their butts look nice, they want us to look and touch...."

I think the experiment would work even better if we'd get a few women to conduct the staring and groping who aren't very attractive, don't take personal hygiene very seriously (consider daily showers and brushing teeth as a waste of water). reek of stale smoke and sweat...

After that we check with the guys how it made them feel, I'm fairly sure most of them would need therapy...



Maybe it is because I live in Canada, but I have never witnessed a man stare at a woman's body, and then loudly comment on it to the woman. Men may say such things among themselves when sizing up a woman, as I know for a fact women also do among themselves when sizing up men.

Is this thing of men running up and groping women in public, or verbally objectifying them really a thing in the States?


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(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 2:53:11 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I sometimes wonder what would happen if women would pointedly stare at men's crotches and loudly comment on the packages, size or lack of size, like some guys do with breasts, would it change their attitude? In case we see something we like, we could just grab and as justification say "if they don't like it, they can always wear something that camouflages their shape a bit better, because they wear pants that make their butts look nice, they want us to look and touch...."

I think the experiment would work even better if we'd get a few women to conduct the staring and groping who aren't very attractive, don't take personal hygiene very seriously (consider daily showers and brushing teeth as a waste of water). reek of stale smoke and sweat...

After that we check with the guys how it made them feel, I'm fairly sure most of them would need therapy...



Maybe it is because I live in Canada, but I have never witnessed a man stare at a woman's body, and then loudly comment on it to the woman. Men may say such things among themselves when sizing up a woman, as I know for a fact women also do among themselves when sizing up men.

Is this thing of men running up and groping women in public, or verbally objectifying them really a thing in the States?



It's been a few years since I've been in Canada, but guys whistling, making a comment and such happened there too.

I'm in Europe and travel frequently, different European countries and the US, it honestly is a thing, and nope, I'm not saying the majority of guys do it, in fact it is a very small minority, but those few people can really ruin it for you, and it's not something that I notice all that much, I remember this summer walking with a friend though DT LA, we split up in the fashion district and decided to meet later again as I wanted to get a few things and guys tend to be bored with women trying on dresses, when we met up again and I was walking towards him, he was fairly upset and glared at some guys, I wondered what was going on and he said they were walking behind me and actually staring at my ass and talking to each other, for him it was pretty obvious what was going on, the guy is a platonic friend.

I'm seriously not a shy shrinking violet, but I don't tend to go out on my own to places where I don't know what crowd hangs around, because unfortunately as a woman on your own going to a pub, bar or anything like that, there are guys who think "you are on the pull" and sometimes with a group of guys, there seems to be some weird dynamic, almost as if they have to show off to each other by making comments. I'm not saying it bothers me an awful lot most of the time (I have a mouth on me and what my OH termed a "deathly laser stare") but it's enough to make me want to avoid it. It's not "Hey baby, ice tits", it's often "Let me get you a drink little lady, looking good today..." It's hard to describe, but it's that "ick" feeling, then - I am not much of a drnker - if I order a coffee or bottled water, about every 3rd time I do that, some guy will tell me that he's getting me a "real drink" usually followed by a pet name or a term of endearment, I don't know if I'm too sensitive but a complete stranger calling me baby, sweetheart, sugar, etc. it's a bit weird. Then the usual thing is to politely decline the drink, if I tell them I don't drink, they ask me what's wrong with me. For a while I went "Look, booze usually gives me a bad headache, I'll have the odd glass of wine but I don't like what they have there..." Big mistake, because that is usually when said guy remembers he has a bottle of wine at home that I need to try. It's pretty hard to politely let a guy know that you aren't interested without being told that you're a snooty bitch, or if they aren't good enough, blah blah. So yes, I tend to go to places where I know at least somebody I know is there, just because I'm really not into having those discussions.

Seriously, try it out with a female friend, you both go into a bar or a pub but pretend you don't know each other and you watch how the men behave towards her.

One thing you might have noticed, women often go out in groups, it doesn't happen if you are in a group, there seems to be some weird thing about a woman walking in on her own that seems to trigger the "must try it on" impulse in some guys.

Oddly enough, it's not the further south you go in Europe where it happens more (actually in Italy the guys are fairly polite, they might call you bella and be flirty but they aren't pushy), it's actually more Eastern Europe, and often not the locals but our good old British and German business travellers and tourists...

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(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 8:48:14 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


Not going to quote the whole posts regarding female breasts but yes, as a straight woman, other women's breasts just don't do anything for me. (Unless I'm sticking needles in them but that's more about the needles than being excited about breasts.)

I know het males have a much different reaction but I could not help of thinking of this reading the long post regarding breasts. http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Bebe's_Boobs_Destroy_Society

Please note this is completely off topic and meant to be said in humor.



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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 9:09:51 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Svale
Nature did not, in fact. design the system that way. In American culture women's breast are highly sexualized, but not in all.
As you yourself note, they are meant for baby food.


Actually, human breasts, contrary to what one would think, are NOT designed for baby milk.
Lactation is only a secondary purpose of human breasts (i.e., only part time).

Sure, they provide milk for babies when babies need milk; but they don't need to be full time engorged with what amounts to fatty tissue to produce milk.
Nope.

Only humans (AFAIK) have full-time breasts.
It's got a lot to do with the fact that we stand on our feet and we're naked (naked ape and all that Desmond Morris stuff).

All other mammals don't have breasts engorged unless they are at the breastfeeding phase.
I realize this isn't intuitive, nor is it obvious, unless you think about it.

But it's what is stated in the papers, although there's no way to prove that human breasts evolved PURELY as a sexual characteristic (i.e., they make women look like better breastfeeders than they might otherwise appear to be).

Net is that, evolutionarily, breasts are NOT primarily for babies' pleasure; they're for mens' pleasure - or - more accurately - for women to be SELECTED by men who selected for breasts in the mistaken belief that bigger breasts mean more milk

Science is odd stuff, indeed.

< Message edited by crumpets -- 11/29/2015 9:10:56 PM >

(in reply to Svale)
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