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Don't be a creeper - 11/27/2015 11:32:55 PM

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One of the recent threads illuminated how some men think certain behavior is not creepy, or that women "overreact".

This current thread on reddit where women discuss creepy men in their life may blow your mind, but it's not surprising to most women, surely:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/3ui1t7/who_is_the_creepiest_guy_you_encounter_on_a/

Akasha

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:25:51 AM

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There is a thread where an *underprivileged* dude swears up and down that we don't live in a rape culture and that big, bad feminists are making this shit up to oppress the poor, downtrodden masses of men.

Maybe one day he'll take a look in the mirror and see his Inner Creep seeping out of the pores of his skin.
If other guys were sexually harassing him the way men often do to women day in and day out, he might undergo an empathy epiphany that he so sorely needs.

I've taken the liberty of highlighting these two insightful posts:

Male poster: "One thing I have noticed is that these guys only act this way because they think they can get away with it.

"Whenever one woman ignores him, or politely smiles, or any of the other things people do rather than actually confronting him, it makes it that much harder for the next woman.

"I've been on both ends of situations like this at one time or another, and sometimes the guy is just an asshole, but sometimes he's never been told that his behaviour is unacceptable. There have been women that in retrospect I was stalking/harassing because every time I went near them, they'd give me a smile. Every time I talked to them, they'd respond even if just to say they're busy. Every time I asked them out they had some temporary reason why they couldn't. It was never a straight no, so when they said they were busy this weekend I'd come back to ask them out the next weekend. I had no idea that they were actually terrified of me, the creepy stalker guy who would never leave them alone, because they were doing all the things I had been told were signs they liked me. It just so turns out that those things they were doing were what they considered to be a polite snub in the hopes that I would 'get the hint'. I had to find out later, usually after they quit their job and left town. I'd hear about the guy who was tormenting them, and piece together from what other people had heard until I realized that it was probably me. Some of us guys actually are that clueless, even now years later I have to really concentrate on things like body language and word choice and I have to remind myself that the majority of the time people are too polite/scared to tell me when I'm being a creeper. I have functionally zero ability to tell if someone actually likes me or is just being polite, and I'm sure I'm not the only one."

Female poster: "Yeah...the big thing you're missing about these encounters is that we, as women, have the very real possibility of being attacked, assaulted, verbally abused, etc. when we're not polite and accommodating. Combine that with the pre-existinf[stet] social pressure to be polite and accommodating, and you've for a lot of women who act like this.

"Sometimes the blunt truth to a creepy guy can get you beaten, harassed, raped, or killed."

DreamLady

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Love is born with the pleasure of looking at each other, it is fed with the necessity of seeing each other, it is concluded with the impossibility of separation. ~José Marti

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:37:06 AM

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I had a real life creeper from cs a few years ago.

We chatted online, he seemed nice. I arranged to meet for a coffee in a busy city centre coffee shop on a Saturday morning. I made it very clear that it would be a half hour max because I had plans to meet friends.

So he turned up looking nothing like his photo. Actually, I smelled him before I saw him. Old sweat, cigarette smoke (he swore he wasn't a smoker) and urine. He sat next to me and proceeded to grab my hair, stroke my chest and squeeze my thigh. In full view of other patrons.

I made my excuses after about 10 minutes and left. He followed me to the train station with (as he stated) the intention to 'see me home'. I said I was going to see friends and he became angry, shouting that I was going to see another guy. I ended up getting the railway police officer to detain him while I got my train.

It didn't stop there - he kept texting. Started out begging and I was polite but clear that I wasn't interested in him, not even as 'just a friend'. Then the threats - he was going to wait outside my house and set fire to it if he saw another man come to visit. He was going to wait for me outside of work and rape me.

The fact that he didn't know where I lived or where I worked didn't do much to ease my fear.

Fortunately I knew where he worked so I went to the local police, explained the situation and they said they'd go to see him.

When they got to his work they were not allowed to tell his boss what they wanted to talk to him about, only that it was a 'police matter'. They told him to stop contacting me or risk arrest and prosecution and he said he'd stop. As they left the shop, my creepy stalker said loudly 'I don't know why you had to come here over some parking tickets'. To which the officer replied 'you have been warned - stay away from her or it gets serious'.

I never heard from him again except for a message about a year later calling me names.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 4:02:34 AM

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"I have functionally zero ability to tell if someone actually likes me or is just being polite, and I'm sure I'm not the only one."

This describes, very succinctly (and with a considerable degree of insight) the cognitive deficit present in autism.

(in reply to Bunnicula)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 7:09:31 AM

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I read this the other day:

The Thing All Women Do That You Don't Know About

I brought it to Awareness' attention and asked him to read it. Here's why. Because I was really moved by the piece. I felt like it spoke to me; about me. Unfortunately, I can all too well relate to some of the examples in the piece, especially referencing younger girls. As I'm sure many women can. So, I asked him to read it because I thought surely, there cannot be a rebuttal to this! And if anyone would have a rebuttal, it would be him. While I'm not a feminist, I certainly don't see eye to eye on everything he believes and I find it interesting to hear his point of view.

After he read it, and after some lengthy discussion, I do see it now. I see how something like this - us complaining about being put in difficult situations or feeling creeped out by men - is not much different than what men face, or what every person faces, in some way or another. Fear of physical harm, fear of being in danger, those split second decisions based on a quick risk assessment, damaged self-esteem - women who have been "creeped out" by men don't hold the market on these.

Does that make our plight any less deserving of attention? No, not to me. I do not appreciate feeling creeped out, thanks. In fact, I get downright fucking scared sometimes. But, it doesn't make it any more deserving of attention, either. What I see and hear out there is an awful lot about how other people need to change so that women who feel victimized won't feel victimized any longer. We've gained the larger ground, the louder voice, and I feel like the weight of our demands is pushing down and crowding out any alternative views and discussion of issues in opposition of the standard "Yes, you're right, men are creeps."

As I said, I see it. But that doesn't change the fact that I do, indeed, feel creeped out and threatened by certain men, in a number of cases, at a number of times in my life. So I really don't know where the middle ground lies. I will say that when I watched the video that was going around a few months ago of a woman walking down the streets of New York, I know exactly how she felt, and how threatening and uncomfortable it can be. Been there, done that, felt exactly as sticky and gross at the end of a day in NYC as that woman must have felt. But I couldn't quite pinpoint why. Did any one man do anything so very creepy? (Other than the man who followed her for a bit. That is pretty obvious, I think.) But saying hello? Or even saying something suggestive? An onslaught of these things, as the woman showed, is indeed fucking creepy and hard to bear. But no one man did that to her, and if it was just one man, the video wouldn't exist because there is no threat. Or even two men. So when does a man's behavior become creepy? When we decide it is? That seems wrong to me, like we're expecting men to change their behavior based on how we perceive it.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. (And a side note: the blog piece I posted talks a bit about underage girls. There was a clear line of demarcation in our discussion. A young girl being approached by a man is a completely different thing and falls outside of my thoughts above.)

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 11/28/2015 7:13:11 AM >

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 8:08:42 AM

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Over here: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4859444/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4860174 it turned into a victim blaming nightmare. I bring it into this thread because, in a way, it is relevant to the "creeper" thing. The woman in the article waded through, most likely, an ocean of creepers and found someone she trusted.

For me, and I'd hope most in the lifestyle, trust is the holy grail that we are seeking in a dynamic. Again, back to the creeper's, getting your partner past the barrage of creepers and reaching a level of trust where you can tie his/her ass up and them not wonder where your body dump site is... just be in the moment with you is where I want to be.

I can come off as a creeper because I do not put my best foot forward. WYSIWYG... Yep, how I interact here is how I'll interact in my living room... with more biting and snuggling and stuff... but WSIWYG. I have to put my best foot forward for work and I do it only for work. I'm a professional Pirate and person X has what I want and I will do whatever it takes to get it... that often means flattery, pleasantries, blah blah blah... However, in a relationship, you will not see my best foot forward, it is unfair to present what you will not/cannot maintain. So when I say, "Yes, I will come in your mouth, not be sorry about it, but I will still kiss you and most likely cook you dinner after" it's a fact.

I am unafraid to be seen as a creeper, because to me that means that my freaks are wrong for you and I do not ever, willingly, board the Titanic. I only move towards a relationship that can/could have longevity, and seeing me for who I am on a day to day basis will allow you to know if I am a creeper or a keeper.

I delete creeper mail often... nope, it's not just the ladies that get creepers... there is a creepy monster that is local to me that sends me mail All. The. Time. It's far too creepy for me to read... it may give her an idea that her tenacity is paying off, so I always delete it unread, but it's reaching the point, after two years, I'm going to have to block her because the mail keeps coming.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 10:53:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

After he read it, and after some lengthy discussion, I do see it now. I see how something like this - us complaining about being put in difficult situations or feeling creeped out by men - is not much different than what men face, or what every person faces, in some way or another. Fear of physical harm, fear of being in danger, those split second decisions based on a quick risk assessment, damaged self-esteem - women who have been "creeped out" by men don't hold the market on these.

Well personally I don't give a flying **** what it thinks about it, because there is no reason to respect a delusional creep who whinges about gender equality all the time, so I put it on ignore ages ago. Frankly speaking, I doubt that the screenname is a real person, because it's such a caricature of everything that's ridiculous and in real life a doc would have picked up on it and institutionalized somebody so batshit crazy.

As for men going through the same thing, REALLY? You mean men regularly think about falling asleep somewhere because they might get raped, they worry about date rape, they worry about which way they take home because they might get raped? Which universe is that? It might be true in some prisons but out in the real world, you know what most of us call reality, men don't tend to face the same fears, they don't have the same risks, they don't tend to get paid less because they got ovaries. They don't even tend to have the same reactions for doing the same things, you know the woman going out and having fun, fucking around, the slut, the guy doing the same, what a stud.

I don't doubt that men have problems and fears and that they are different, however the just normal things every woman goes through on a daily basis, that's not something they encounter, the whistles, the gropes, the worry of encouraging a guy, walking the tight rope of being polite but not encouraging sexual attention, the "I rather take a cab home even if it is just a 10 minute walk...", the "I don't know this guy, I can't have another drink as I might need my wits about me", the "I might get pregnant" is just stuff men do not have to worry about.

What you are suggesting is a bit ridiculous, to put up with creepy behaviour because it wouldn't be fair to ask men to change? Really? That's about as absurd as asking women to act like creepy guys and start to leer and wolf whistle when a guy wears shorts and shows legs. Most men have evolved sufficiently to not treat women as objects, we really do not have to accommodate the knuckle draggers who still don't get it and make allowances.

The rule is fairly simple, don't do anything towards a woman without her explicit permission that would make you uncomfortable if another man would act like that towards you and you identify as a straight man. It's not that difficult, it's simply common sense and anybody with in IQ above room temperature should be able to get it. Feel like leering? Think about a gay guy leering at you, feel like touching, how would you like it if somebody you don't find desirable or attractive would touch you.... There isn't a lot of wiggle room there. Once you are in a relationship and you decide to negotiate the parameters, it's a different issue, but before you get the permission, just rely on "If it would make me uncomfy it might make her uncomfy!"

Unless the number of men getting raped (something that I do not hope happens) is equal to women getting raped, it's just not the same thing, and nope, I don't think it's less traumatic for a man to get raped than it is for a woman, but it's a fact that it's a lot less of a risk for them, and in case it happens, they usually do not have to answer all the embarrassing questions form the police and lawyers, if they might not have encouraged the guy. You know hubby used to play rugby, he does on occasion like to go out and get plastered, oddly enough a 6 foot something guy who's built like a brick shit house and quite attractive will get plenty of female attention, however I just asked him if he ever felt in danger of being raped, the answer was hearty laugh and a "Hey, I'm a guy, in case you forgot in the last 12 hours!"

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 11:41:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady

There is a thread where an *underprivileged* dude swears up and down that we don't live in a rape culture and that big, bad feminists are making this shit up to oppress the poor, downtrodden masses of men.

Because we don't live in a 'rape culture' by any remotely objective analysis, at least as far as women are concerned. Just because we don't run out and physically lynch someone based on woman's say so doesn't mean that it is a rape culture. Do we make excuses for prominent people? Of course. We make excuses for them regarding everything. If anything, it makes it a power/celebrity culture not a rape culture.

quote:

Maybe one day he'll take a look in the mirror and see his Inner Creep seeping out of the pores of his skin.

Ah, so because he disagrees with your emotions, he is a creep. Typical shaming tactic.

quote:

If other guys were sexually harassing him the way men often do to women day in and day out, he might undergo an empathy epiphany that he so sorely needs.

No they don't. Some men (typically of lower classes) engage in that behavior, but the vast majority do not. Besides, such an accusation is blatantly ignorant of the general intergender dynamic. Most complaints of harassment are really an expression of 'how dare men I'm not interested in express interest in me. Don't they know I'm too good for them?'. Harassment that doesn't pass the 'Brad Pitt test' is pretty rare (If your otherwise dream partner was engaging in such behavior, would you still see it as harassment?). As far as an empathy epiphany, that seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

quote:

I've taken the liberty of highlighting these two insightful posts:

Male poster: "One thing I have noticed is that these guys only act this way because they think they can get away with it.

"Whenever one woman ignores him, or politely smiles, or any of the other things people do rather than actually confronting him, it makes it that much harder for the next woman.

"I've been on both ends of situations like this at one time or another, and sometimes the guy is just an asshole, but sometimes he's never been told that his behaviour is unacceptable. There have been women that in retrospect I was stalking/harassing because every time I went near them, they'd give me a smile. Every time I talked to them, they'd respond even if just to say they're busy. Every time I asked them out they had some temporary reason why they couldn't. It was never a straight no, so when they said they were busy this weekend I'd come back to ask them out the next weekend. I had no idea that they were actually terrified of me, the creepy stalker guy who would never leave them alone, because they were doing all the things I had been told were signs they liked me. It just so turns out that those things they were doing were what they considered to be a polite snub in the hopes that I would 'get the hint'. I had to find out later, usually after they quit their job and left town. I'd hear about the guy who was tormenting them, and piece together from what other people had heard until I realized that it was probably me. Some of us guys actually are that clueless, even now years later I have to really concentrate on things like body language and word choice and I have to remind myself that the majority of the time people are too polite/scared to tell me when I'm being a creeper. I have functionally zero ability to tell if someone actually likes me or is just being polite, and I'm sure I'm not the only one."

Female poster: "Yeah...the big thing you're missing about these encounters is that we, as women, have the very real possibility of being attacked, assaulted, verbally abused, etc. when we're not polite and accommodating. Combine that with the pre-existinf[stet] social pressure to be polite and accommodating, and you've for a lot of women who act like this.

I don't think this makes the point you think it makes. Yes, there are a certain percentage of assholes and socially inept people. There will always be that. Changing the rules won't eliminate that because the assholes don't care about the rules and the inept don't understand them. Every woman that gives the response sought reinforces the behavior used to elicit the response. Let's be frank, women essentially set the rules for intergender interactions in society through their behavior. So if you don't like how the process is working, your problem is generally with other women, not men.

In the context of the larger picture, issues dealing with these outliers creates a bind where a choice has to be made between the equality claim and the vulnerability claim. A logically consistent person cannot claim both women should receive the same treatment as men and claim that women require special protection because they are uniquely vulnerable, as the claims are inherently contradictory.

quote:

"Sometimes the blunt truth to a creepy guy can get you beaten, harassed, raped, or killed."

DreamLady

If you live via worst first thinking, you will never feel safe enough. There will always be a trade-off between freedom and security. Be careful what protections you demand, lest you put yourself in shackles.

(in reply to dreamlady)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 11:47:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko
The Thing All Women Do That You Don't Know About

I read that article with interest because not only did it bring up good points about women's experiences with men, but it conveniently skipped just-as-good points about men's experiences with women.

For example, that article mentioned that girls "brush off adult men staring at our breasts", but it doesn't mention whether those breasts were all-but-nipple exposed or whether they were socially acceptably covered (like it or not, women's breasts are not the same as men's breasts in our culture when it comes to social acceptance of public nudity).

Of course, what she was wearing matters and it doesn't matter - all depending on both the exact situation and your male/female viewpoint on that situation.

While I've heard many women say it doesn't matter what she was wearing, I believe it does matter if she is then going to complain that men are looking at her breasts.

For example, if the girl happens to be wearing clothes that shout "oh look at me please... I have tits!", then she really has to consider why the men are looking at her breasts because if she's purposefully exposing those breasts (right down to the nipple perhaps?), then who is she to complain that men are doing exactly what she's asking them to to (yes, I know, she didn't verbally 'ask', but there is communication in clothing as we all well know).

Now, if she's actually dressed appropriately for her age and figure, and still men are constantly staring at her breasts, well then, she has a perfectly valid argument.

The devil is in the details.

Having said that, if she has huge breasts (as someone pointed out in another it-turned-into-stalking thread), well, then, there's not much a woman can do. It's like me driving down the road in my tastefully painted Maserati. No matter how I try to cover it up, people will still look simply because they are INTERESTED in Maserati's.

So, breasts will ALWAYS be looked at because they're INTERESTING. In fact, nature designed the system that way (it's the reason why women of non-childbearing age don't yet have them).

So, there are two sides to every story ... but ... the devil is in the details.

(in reply to Kaliko)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:19:53 PM

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And since of course, no woman here is worth listening to, I'm going to suggest you all read Jon Krakauer's new book Missoula. Focusing on rapes at the university there, one interesting statistic is that PTSD from acquaintance rape runs 50% higher than it does in returning vets. Yet I don't see anyone suggesting that this is wrong or that college coeds should expect to be safe at a place they're paying a lot of money to attend.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:33:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

For example, that article mentioned that girls "brush off adult men staring at our breasts", but it doesn't mention whether those breasts were all-but-nipple exposed or whether they were socially acceptably covered (like it or not, women's breasts are not the same as men's breasts in our culture when it comes to social acceptance of public nudity).

Of course, what she was wearing matters and it doesn't matter - all depending on both the exact situation and your male/female viewpoint on that situation.

While I've heard many women say it doesn't matter what she was wearing, I believe it does matter if she is then going to complain that men are looking at her breasts.

It doesn't matter, think about it this way, you can wear short sleeves, no matter how big your arms are or how well defined they are, you can wear shorts, no matter if you have great legs or not or a nice tush... How would you feel if a bunch of gay guys would leer, whistle and make you uncomfy? Or think about women you find very unattractive, think teeth brown and yellow, BO unpleasant and all that stuff...

I usually tend to wear oversized t-shirts simply because I have a small waist, a small frame and medium sized breasts, due to my small frame they appear very large, I go out of my way to hide them - sometimes I think "Should I have to? Why do I have to be uncomfortable just because some guys haven't learned that staring isn't OK?"

_____________________________

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:38:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I read this the other day:

The Thing All Women Do That You Don't Know About

I brought it to Awareness' attention and asked him to read it. Here's why. Because I was really moved by the piece. I felt like it spoke to me; about me. Unfortunately, I can all too well relate to some of the examples in the piece, especially referencing younger girls. As I'm sure many women can. So, I asked him to read it because I thought surely, there cannot be a rebuttal to this! And if anyone would have a rebuttal, it would be him. While I'm not a feminist, I certainly don't see eye to eye on everything he believes and I find it interesting to hear his point of view.

Now there's a surprise. Of course if you show a piece like that to a whiner who is terrified of women you'll get a rebuttal.

quote:

After he read it, and after some lengthy discussion, I do see it now. I see how something like this - us complaining about being put in difficult situations or feeling creeped out by men - is not much different than what men face, or what every person faces, in some way or another. Fear of physical harm, fear of being in danger, those split second decisions based on a quick risk assessment, damaged self-esteem - women who have been "creeped out" by men don't hold the market on these.

Unless he's an even bigger loser than I think he is, then there is no way he will have experienced anything close to the creepery that most women have to experience. I think he's playing the victim, tbh.

quote:

Does that make our plight any less deserving of attention? No, not to me. I do not appreciate feeling creeped out, thanks. In fact, I get downright fucking scared sometimes. But, it doesn't make it any more deserving of attention, either. What I see and hear out there is an awful lot about how other people need to change so that women who feel victimized won't feel victimized any longer. We've gained the larger ground, the louder voice, and I feel like the weight of our demands is pushing down and crowding out any alternative views and discussion of issues in opposition of the standard "Yes, you're right, men are creeps."

Except that there is a lot of rational discussion. The fact that the hysterical tantrums of a whining loser are treated with the disdain they deserve doesn't in any way demonstrate that debate is not allowed.

What makes it more deserving of attention is the fact that it is widespread, gender biased, and harmful to society.

quote:

As I said, I see it. But that doesn't change the fact that I do, indeed, feel creeped out and threatened by certain men, in a number of cases, at a number of times in my life. So I really don't know where the middle ground lies. I will say that when I watched the video that was going around a few months ago of a woman walking down the streets of New York, I know exactly how she felt, and how threatening and uncomfortable it can be. Been there, done that, felt exactly as sticky and gross at the end of a day in NYC as that woman must have felt. But I couldn't quite pinpoint why. Did any one man do anything so very creepy? (Other than the man who followed her for a bit. That is pretty obvious, I think.) But saying hello? Or even saying something suggestive? An onslaught of these things, as the woman showed, is indeed fucking creepy and hard to bear. But no one man did that to her, and if it was just one man, the video wouldn't exist because there is no threat. Or even two men. So when does a man's behavior become creepy? When we decide it is? That seems wrong to me, like we're expecting men to change their behavior based on how we perceive it.

The key lies in changing the way they perceive it, as it happens. But, in any case - Yes, it is perfectly ok to expect people to change their behaviour based on how we perceive it. Just as it's perfectly permissible to act in self defence based on how you perceive the risk to your person.

quote:

Anyway, just a few thoughts. (And a side note: the blog piece I posted talks a bit about underage girls. There was a clear line of demarcation in our discussion. A young girl being approached by a man is a completely different thing and falls outside of my thoughts above.)

While I respect the fact that you do not identify as a feminist, your point of view does seem pretty well aligned with mainstream feminist thinking.

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(in reply to Kaliko)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:41:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

For example, that article mentioned that girls "brush off adult men staring at our breasts", but it doesn't mention whether those breasts were all-but-nipple exposed or whether they were socially acceptably covered (like it or not, women's breasts are not the same as men's breasts in our culture when it comes to social acceptance of public nudity).

Of course, what she was wearing matters and it doesn't matter - all depending on both the exact situation and your male/female viewpoint on that situation.

While I've heard many women say it doesn't matter what she was wearing, I believe it does matter if she is then going to complain that men are looking at her breasts.

It doesn't matter, think about it this way, you can wear short sleeves, no matter how big your arms are or how well defined they are, you can wear shorts, no matter if you have great legs or not or a nice tush... How would you feel if a bunch of gay guys would leer, whistle and make you uncomfy? Or think about women you find very unattractive, think teeth brown and yellow, BO unpleasant and all that stuff...

I usually tend to wear oversized t-shirts simply because I have a small waist, a small frame and medium sized breasts, due to my small frame they appear very large, I go out of my way to hide them - sometimes I think "Should I have to? Why do I have to be uncomfortable just because some guys haven't learned that staring isn't OK?"

I have a small frame, small waist and large breasts. I hide them for the most part, but it's sad that I may have to pass over a gorgeous cocktail dress because I try it on and the cleavage is such that I know men would be leering. How is that fair?

Taking LC's analogy further - men, imagine if gay gentlemen outnumbered straight guys. Imagine if every time you wore ANY kind of jeans, shorts, trousers that showed a bit of definition in your crotch resulted in everything from obvious long glances, to actually comments, "I really like the view below the waist big boy, oh, nice!" to men coming up and hitting on you despite the fact that you are NOT interested, and not stopping and getting resentful that how DARE you hint at the size and shape of your package without knowing it would attract attention.

Imagine if the only way you could avoid the staring, leering, comments and general gross behavior is to dress in a way that totally made your crotch area indistinct. Forget the fact that certain underwear or jeans are more comfortable. Nope. Sorry - you have to suck it up and hide it or else gay guys are going to be staring or hitting on you or making lewd comments.

Are you ready to completely change the way you want to dress to avoid advances from gay men?

Akasha

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:44:29 PM

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From: Exiled
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Akasha, I think it would be in the best interest of this thread if the men would open accounts on a gay dating site and post pics in tight jeans and see wot happens.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:53:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Akasha, I think it would be in the best interest of this thread if the men would open accounts on a gay dating site and post pics in tight jeans and see wot happens.

Further to the train of thought -- how many straight guys have been uncomfortably hit on or leered at by gay guys in their lifetime? Imagine if it was all the time?

Moreso--- there are obviously a lot of gay men out there that control themselves and do not stare or make comments because they cannot be sure if the man may be straight or not interested and they realize it's rude. If these men can control themselves, why can't straight guys when looking at a woman?

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:55:04 PM

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I would be interested to see what the defenders think of the video of a woman wearing a crewneck walking through NYC and what she deals with. There is NO cleavage here.

How do you defend this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

PS: 100 instances of uninvited attention in 10 hours. Think about that. Guys, imagine if 100 gay guys made comments at you uninvited in 10 hours.

< Message edited by AAkasha -- 11/28/2015 12:56:41 PM >

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 12:59:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Akasha, I think it would be in the best interest of this thread if the men would open accounts on a gay dating site and post pics in tight jeans and see wot happens.

Further to the train of thought -- how many straight guys have been uncomfortably hit on or leered at by gay guys in their lifetime? Imagine if it was all the time?

Moreso--- there are obviously a lot of gay men out there that control themselves and do not stare or make comments because they cannot be sure if the man may be straight or not interested and they realize it's rude. If these men can control themselves, why can't straight guys when looking at a woman?

I do recall a straight ex going out drinking and falling asleep on the sofa of a guy who was blatantly gay, he woke up because the guy was working his way up his legs and had a hand under his shorts. Freaking outrage, he arrived in a cab, screamed at me to pay for it, ran into his bedroom and pulled the blanket over his head, claimed to be traumatized. I went "WTF did you expect? It's freaking normal for women to worry about that shit!" Guy went freaking mental and claimed that a guy doing that to a woman is normal as she asks for it, possibly just pretends to be asleep but a guy hitting on a guy that way is just wrong and terrifying and oh so fucking traumatic....

We were finished after that, but not before I told him "Welcome to my fucking world, stop being a drama queen, deal with it, I get pinched whenever I take the subway, the guy had a hand on your knee and touched your leg, it happens to women on a daily basis! Get with the program and don't get drunk and pass out, something every woman knows!"

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 1:03:17 PM

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From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Akasha, I think it would be in the best interest of this thread if the men would open accounts on a gay dating site and post pics in tight jeans and see wot happens.

Further to the train of thought -- how many straight guys have been uncomfortably hit on or leered at by gay guys in their lifetime? Imagine if it was all the time?

Moreso--- there are obviously a lot of gay men out there that control themselves and do not stare or make comments because they cannot be sure if the man may be straight or not interested and they realize it's rude. If these men can control themselves, why can't straight guys when looking at a woman?

Happens to me all the time. I have the advantage of not being a homophobe, and I'm a guy, so the risks are minimal. I tell them I am flattered but straight. However, I know a LOT of guys that will get that wild eyed look and run from a gay proposition... they have severe issues.

I grew up in a house full of women, so I understand the inherit danger women face... which bakes my noodle because most guys have been raised solely by their mothers, so I can only assume it's the asshole gene.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 1:04:17 PM

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I have a charged taser that I carry with me whenever I go out now. Fuck that shit - I really need to carry some rope too so then I can tie the person up so I can drag them somewhere and fuck them up. I also like the winter months best, because thats when I wear my Doc Martin boots. They are pretty hard core weapons within themselves.

I just wont put up with these fucks anymore - I get pissed.the.fuck.off.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/28/2015 1:07:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

As for men going through the same thing, REALLY? You mean men regularly think about falling asleep somewhere because they might get raped, they worry about date rape, they worry about which way they take home because they might get raped? Which universe is that? It might be true in some prisons but out in the real world, you know what most of us call reality, men don't tend to face the same fears, they don't have the same risks, they don't tend to get paid less because they got ovaries. They don't even tend to have the same reactions for doing the same things, you know the woman going out and having fun, fucking around, the slut, the guy doing the same, what a stud.

Instead I get to worry about:

Will I get mugged or attacked if I fall asleep here?

Is that girl batshit crazy that will make my life hell? Call the police on me? Cost me my job? Get me thrown in jail?

Is she lying about being on the pill? Am I going to end up a wage slave for the next 18 years?

Is there someone that is going to come after me? Say a husband or boyfriend she 'neglected' to mention?

As far as getting 'paid less for having ovaries'. When experience and career choices are taken into account, the discrepancy between male and female salaries is almost nil. (2%-5%, which is within the typical margin of error and may represent a risk premium on the part of the employer).

quote:

I don't doubt that men have problems and fears and that they are different, however the just normal things every woman goes through on a daily basis, that's not something they encounter, the whistles, the gropes, the worry of encouraging a guy, walking the tight rope of being polite but not encouraging sexual attention, the "I rather take a cab home even if it is just a 10 minute walk...", the "I don't know this guy, I can't have another drink as I might need my wits about me", the "I might get pregnant" is just stuff men do not have to worry about.

Women have to take some responsibility for their behavior and safety. The horror. Tell you what, women can stop worrying about politely rejecting people when they start being assertive in pursuing relationships en masse. The price for not being the pursuer is that you have to deal with being pursued. It can't be both ways.

Being pregnant is not typically a male worry, but getting someone pregnant is very much so. I had someone pull that as a joke once and I felt my world crashing down.

quote:

What you are suggesting is a bit ridiculous, to put up with creepy behaviour because it wouldn't be fair to ask men to change? Really? That's about as absurd as asking women to act like creepy guys and start to leer and wolf whistle when a guy wears shorts and shows legs. Most men have evolved sufficiently to not treat women as objects, we really do not have to accommodate the knuckle draggers who still don't get it and make allowances.

Unfortunately, most women haven't evolved past the point of seeing men as more than workhorses. Men don't set the rules. Women do. Nature only cares about producing the next generation. Women are the gatekeepers to that, therefore women are the ones who set the rules through their choices. While asking either side to change is unrealistic, the ability to effect real change is much more in women's court than it is in men's.

quote:

The rule is fairly simple, don't do anything towards a woman without her explicit permission that would make you uncomfortable if another man would act like that towards you and you identify as a straight man. It's not that difficult, it's simply common sense and anybody with in IQ above room temperature should be able to get it. Feel like leering? Think about a gay guy leering at you, feel like touching, how would you like it if somebody you don't find desirable or attractive would touch you.... There isn't a lot of wiggle room there. Once you are in a relationship and you decide to negotiate the parameters, it's a different issue, but before you get the permission, just rely on "If it would make me uncomfy it might make her uncomfy!"

Ah, the irony of claiming other people are stupid while expressing great ignorance yourself. This has two bad assumptions. The first bad assumption is that the each gender generally desires the same approach. this is clearly not true as would be seen by anyone that has spent much time around homosexuals of either gender and paid attention. What makes men and women uncomfortable frequently do not overlap. The second bad assumption is that everyone has similar tolerances to behavior. Under your proposed rule, if I didn't care what happened to me, I could do anything to anybody. This is a typical example of solipsistic thinking, or "I am the world".

quote:

Unless the number of men getting raped (something that I do not hope happens) is equal to women getting raped

If you take into consideration more than the use of direct physical force, the numbers are fairly close. There is some disparity, but it isn't dramatic. If you don't allow for that, then you have to throw away all the date rape statistics and rape then becomes quite rare.

quote:

, it's just not the same thing, and nope, I don't think it's less traumatic for a man to get raped than it is for a woman, but it's a fact that it's a lot less of a risk for them, and in case it happens, they usually do not have to answer all the embarrassing questions form the police and lawyers, if they might not have encouraged the guy.

Hah! I might not get the exact same embarrassing questions, but I will get a different set and that is assuming that I am taken seriously at all.

quote:

You know hubby used to play rugby, he does on occasion like to go out and get plastered, oddly enough a 6 foot something guy who's built like a brick shit house and quite attractive will get plenty of female attention, however I just asked him if he ever felt in danger of being raped, the answer was hearty laugh and a "Hey, I'm a guy, in case you forgot in the last 12 hours!"

Translation: I am an adult who has internalized that I am personally responsible for my own safety and expressing my own wants and needs. Plus I am 6ft+ and in shape. The number of people that could realistically threaten me without a weapon is too small to worry about.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

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