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Punishments and Discipline - 8/16/2006 9:20:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have to ask a question that is related to a thread in the Master forum

Are you disciplined or punished if you have done something "wrong" in your dynamic? Do you see a difference between being disciplined or being punished? If there is a difference, what is it in your mind? Im not going to put any of my own input on this at first, or maybe not at all, I am just curious.

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/16/2006 9:26:35 PM   
angielouwhos


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think of it as discpline and in past relationships It's been called that. Perhaps that has clouded the definition for me, but punishment to me seems reactionary and not designed to help the slave/submissive grow and learn. Discipline seems loving and directed toward bettering me.  Its also a lot different from the times when your Master just needs to get some stress out on you, in those times I serve as an object of entertainment? Not sure if that makes sense.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/16/2006 10:01:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Entertaining as in " You have been a bad girl and need to be punished'?

Or entertaining in the way that punishing is not about growth but blowing off steam for the dominant?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/16/2006 10:09:30 PM   
angielouwhos


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline 		More the latter, I was thinking of the times where he/she has simply needed to get the stress out.


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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/16/2006 10:19:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Kind of like a parent that took a hard day at work out on their child...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 12:49:12 AM   
behindmirrors


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Discipline, in our house, may or may not include punishment. It would only take a look of disappointment for me to be jumping to redeem myself- and this has been the case in most situations. A grave look or a few words and I will do anything to try to do right for my Dom- there is no need to punish me further in these situations because I understand I have done wrong and wish to make right.

Punishment has it's purpose here, too- but I suppose the important thing to ask is if it is more a physical act than discipline is.

Punishment here is more physical, wheras discipline is more about working with words or one's mind to get the point across. I hate to go through either one, really.

Physical punishment is more typical when we are engaged in a "scene" than in ordinary, day to day sort of interactions (such as if I failed to get the dishes done, etc.)- it would be strange to interrupt sex and tell me that I was doing wrong by not staying still in a position and expect my apologies and then attempt to do better rather than just give me a sharp whack on the ass if I move a bit, and that's where punishment more typically has come in for us.

Either one gets the point across that I am not doing as I should, but I see them as more fluid and situational in our relationship than one or the other as a policy. It seems to work effectively either way. Both take some aftercare when I have corrected my wrong or finished the ordeal for me. Both are done out of love and caring to make me better. Both hurt a bit, but sometimes in different ways. Both show me I need to do better when I have not met the expectations set out for me. The difference is what method is used in what contexts, but they achieve a similar goal- to make me do better for him, to show me what it is that I have done wrong so that I learn from it.

behindmirrors.

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 4:48:59 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Are you disciplined or punished if you have done something "wrong" in your dynamic? Do you see a difference between being disciplined or being punished? If there is a difference, what is it in your mind? Im not going to put any of my own input on this at first, or maybe not at all, I am just curious.


I view the two as related items but different forms of application. Both imply corrective action in response to an intentional error or mistake that has occurred. There is also an air of acknowledgement by each party in regard to the subject. One cannot be punished or disciplined without being informed that we've erred in some way.

However, punishment is the consequence for the behavior referenced. Whereby the dominant has determined that the inherent cost of the infraction is the penalty that has been assigned.

porcelaine

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His will; my fate.

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 5:04:00 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		<---- looks at room name, looks at own profile, decides to answer anyway

My practices include all of the facets of BDSM, so what I say here is somewhat easier to digest than other creative ways that I'm not thinking of.

When I am with a partner, and we are 'playing', which could be spanking or other types of sensation play (whips, crops, paddles and the like), I consider that and tell my partner that that is, to me, 'training' or 'discipline'.  In this case it is the discipline of learning how I like to play.  So I equate discipline and play.

A punishment, obviously, is some transgression such that the dominant partner feels to demarcate between 'fun' and 'serious business'.  Now that punishment can be any of many things, but for my example let's make it sensation play.

In my experience, I don't necessarily have to play 'harder' to make an effective punishment.  For most submissives (not bottoms), their own headspace, combined with what I'm doing psychologically and emotionally to their headspace, is what makes the punishment.

In short, I could take the exactly same spanking, no harder, softer, longer, shorter, and make it either the most wonderful experience, or living hell.

<----- takes another look around the room.  I like the colors in here.

Jeff

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Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 5:22:16 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		Discipline =  to modify/guide

Punishment =  an act to correct blatant misbehavior

Just my thoughts on this.....

~smilezz~

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 6:21:34 AM   
eroticangel


Posts: 272
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		oh smilez i think you hit the nail on the head.......

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 6:57:26 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Master uses both displine and punishment on me.  I have only gotton one punishiment in the 6.5 months we have been together and it was deserved.

To Master displine is to correct behavior it is not as harsh as punishment.  It is less strokes and the strokes are not as hard.

Punishment is for something that i did wrong either something i did that i was specifically told not to do or something i had been displined for before.  More strokes and they are harder.

Master also assignes atonments for making him have to hurt me because he does not like to.  I try to be a good girl so Master does not have to give me displine or punishments.

Matt's littleone

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 7:05:12 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Are you disciplined or punished if you have done something "wrong" in your dynamic?

Yes.
quote:

Do you see a difference between being disciplined or being punished? If there is a difference, what is it in your mind? Im not going to put any of my own input on this at first, or maybe not at all, I am just curious.

Punishment is A TYPE of discipline.

Discipline = controlled behavior

Punishment = one method (among many) to control behavior

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training?  Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment


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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 7:26:07 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

A wealth of info on this topic to be sure..lol

How views it personally: The only difference between discipline and punishment is the Owners mood. If He's happy when doing what ever it is He's doing..its good. If He isn't happy when doing what ever it is He's doing..it's not good.


Well Wishes

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 7:32:29 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have to ask a question that is related to a thread in the Master forum

Are you disciplined or punished if you have done something "wrong" in your dynamic? Do you see a difference between being disciplined or being punished? If there is a difference, what is it in your mind? Im not going to put any of my own input on this at first, or maybe not at all, I am just curious.


Not even going to read other responses on this thread yet. Gonna go with my own thoughts here.... there's no punishment or discipline in relationships I am in. We're both adults. If one screws up... we communicate about the screw up.

I punish or discipline my kids when they screw up... if they do it again... the next gets worse. They have privilages taken from then. But then again.. they're my kids.. not my partner.

As for partners... we're both adults. And should know better. But IF something happens. There's discussion... not punishment or discipline. And if one tries... one walks... because i'm not gonna be treated as a child.... or incompentent. If it reaches that point in a realtionship... it's time to move on. Just as I would if I seen my partner as an incompentent.


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Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 8:10:37 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I am not one for punishments.  I am an adult, not a child.  If I cannot do, or stick to what I say..then there are bigger issues involved. 

I have never been punished because I never found a reason to not do what I was told.  If there was some reason it couldn't be, or I had any problem with it, we would sit down and discuss it beforehand, not after the fact when it wasn't done.  To not do something then wait and see what happens, is just plain being a brat.  This is not something that I would put up with in the first place.  I guess I have never understood that part of the D/s relationship.  If you are told to do something, do it.  If you can't for some reason, talk about it.  To do otherwise is very immature behavior, or someone aching for attention.  Act like an adult, be treated like one.. act like a child, you are treated the same. 


JMHO, Andrea



_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 8:25:17 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have to ask a question that is related to a thread in the Master forum

Are you disciplined or punished if you have done something "wrong" in your dynamic? Do you see a difference between being disciplined or being punished? If there is a difference, what is it in your mind? Im not going to put any of my own input on this at first, or maybe not at all, I am just curious.


Both.

I am both taught discipline, meaning I have learned (and I am learning) how to conduct myself in a disciplined manner.  For example, I used to smoke, years ago.  Master says no smoking.  During serious times of stress, I still crave cigarettes.  But I have learned to exercise self-discipline to not light up.  I believe any slave or submissive who obeys is exercising discipline, no?

I am also disciplined by him.  This is typically administered through words.  If my thoughts or words or actions are not in alignment with what he wishes for me (and really what I ultimately wish for myself), then he will correct them.  He will voice his correction, and perhaps have me write some introspective thoughts on the matter, depending what the issue is.  Discipline is a way of guiding.  Think of those car rides in an amusement park, where you steer yourself but really can't steer all that wrong because of the iron rail that runs down the middle of the road, keeping you on track.  You might clank against it from time to time - but it remains there to ensure you are in place.

Punishment is a punitive action, and a consequence for a punishable deed.  It can serve as a deterrent, either by the threat of it, or by the memory of a painful past punishment you would rather not experience again.  Typically a slave or submissive will obey and be respectful because she (he) wants and needs to offer that respect to the Dominant/Master. There are times that does not happen.  None of us is perfect, and in my case, my emotions still sometimes get the best of me, and I mess up.  There has been only one blatant act of disobedience in my time with Master, and while it could have been explained and justified, had I taken the time to really think about things rather than give in to my issues, I would not have done it.  Punishment was severe enough to not ever forget, even though I would rather not remember.  The result was a valuable lesson learned.

In my case, there are several reasons why he might administer punishment.  One (and probably the most common) is because he finds it is befitting for me to suffer consequences for jeopardizing what we have.  Another is because sometimes my head is really thick (and stubborn) and that is a sure-fired way to get my attention about something.  Another is because it softens me when I need softening.  And still another is because there are times I feel badly and have trouble forgiving myself without suffering for him.

Punishments range from mild to severe, depending on the situation.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 10:09:14 AM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline 		Discipline is about control of self.  Punishment is to correct a wrong and allow for atonement.
 
In my relationship, I have been punished (but not in several years).  It wasn't so much because of what I had done, but the manner in which I chose to do it, which reflected a lack of discipline.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 10:22:58 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The purpose of Discipline is to teach, the purpose of punishment is to attone and close the book on an infraction.

Punishment can be a part of discipline.

(in reply to Evanesce)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 10:51:36 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		Whenever the term "punishment" comes up I think of it in the context of behavior modification. Then I usually go to a link such as this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

just to refresh my ideas on the subject.

I like Archer's definition of using discipline to teach; punishment may be the consequence if the lesson wasn't learned.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Punishments and Discipline - 8/17/2006 11:08:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The purpose of Discipline is to teach, the purpose of punishment is to attone and close the book on an infraction.

Punishment can be a part of discipline.



I think this is the most blunt and to the point reply I have seen.

I am never punished in my dynamic. I am disciplined. I have no desire or need to be punished, and he doesn't want me to attone for mistakes I make as I am human and am bound to make them. I punish myself just fine, and it is doubtful that his adding to my attonement is going to bring about desireable results for us. If I did not feel I did wrong, then all the punishing in the world is not going to change my mind, and if I feel I did wrong there is nothing he can do to punish me more than I do to myself.

Discipline is not the same thing as punishment, although it can look the same to an outsider. Training someone to do something your way by using positive or negative reinforcement is a form of discipline. So if everytime I cuss I am fined 5 cents, this is not a punishment per se, it is discipline because it is trying to control my behavior through negative reinforcement. The object isn't attonement, it is behavor modification.

I never punish my son, because I do not want attonement from him for his misdeeds, I want a change in behavior. Attonement to me is a personal internal process that one must come to the understanding they have done wrong and seek to make it right by their own means. I cannot punish him into attonement.

I think that some submissives need punishment from an external source in order to feel as though they have attoned for some wrong they have committed in life. I think others do not. It is an internal dynamic between submissive and dominant in my mind, and fills the needs between them, and it doesn't matter how punishment is used or not used to the outsider. 

I recall my mom saying "Sometimes a good spanking clears the air". In other words it would restore the balance of power in the relationship between parent and child, and it would let the child attone for misdeeds that the child maybe carrying around with them. In other words it was a mechanism to clean the slate for parent and child. Not all will agree with that, but on the handful of occasions I was spanked it did seem to have that effect.

In thinking more and more about this concept of punishment and discipline I found I was judging people who "punished" within their relationship structure. I was wrong in doing so, because I was looking at it from my experience and my needs, and not from theirs. It is a very interesting thing to me, hence I started this thread to try to see what others think, even though it has been done before.. thanks to everyone for their replies.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
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