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References - 12/16/2006 12:55:52 AM

Posts: 4
Joined: 12/16/2006
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When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

RE: References - 12/16/2006 2:11:35 AM

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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Lol, and why should I trust you? Because you're a member of some group of likeminded kinksters? Because you feel references from other strangers (to me) makes you worthy of greater trust than a solitary fem/sub who might live hundreds of miles from the nearest dungeon or community?

I don't feel you're actually wrong to expect the same you can offer; more like naive, ignorant or arrogant etc.... Frankly, I don't feel I need validation from *anyone*; I loathe the ideology of references so I neither ask for nor offer them.... If that's a deal breaker for a fem/sub I'm getting to know, ok, wish you well, good luck in your search blah blah. And for good measure, I'm just as unimpressed at the prospect of swapping medical records.

I find the traditional methods of using my own nouse, intelligence, following my instincts and taking the time to earn mutual trust works perfectly fine. If prospective fem/sub isn't mature enough to do likewise, we're probably not gonna hit it off anyway!

And there's just something dingy and repugnant to me about references from third parties when we're talking about relationships, intimacies and sexuality.... I mean, just how many have seen you naked??? lol This "true Dom or Master" still likes a bit of mystery about females, esp a prospective partner....

Focus.

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 2:35:16 AM

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I find the traditional methods of using my own nouse, intelligence, following my instincts and taking the time to earn mutual trust works perfectly fine. If prospective fem/sub isn't mature enough to do likewise, we're probably not gonna hit it off anyway!

And there's just something dingy and repugnant to me about references from third parties when we're talking about relationships, intimacies and sexuality.... I mean, just how many have seen you naked??? lol This "true Dom or Master" still likes a bit of mystery about females, esp a prospective partner....

Focus.

I'll second that. References make me squicky.

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 2:36:38 AM

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Don't trust me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 2:47:44 AM

Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline

What is so important of having someone verify that you are who you say you are? isn't that part of getting to know someone? If you were to rely on just what the community has to say about someone then they will have little to say about me since I stay away from it here in Houston. I have my reasons, they may not be valid for some but I never cared about what others ever thought unless they are mine.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 3:19:43 AM

Lmiss

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/12/2006
Status: offline

Shadevarr, it's ok for you, as you're both responsible and in the position of dom...i've read some of your posts and you really think about what you're doing & what's happening for your sub. Well, you seem to.
But what about the risk of meeting someone seriously sweet, who doesn't have enough know-how to keep one safe? The sub is so vulnerable, the drop is seriously dangerous for some of us...This is where a good community is a lifesaver, in very real terms. not just references, but education.
Having said that, this is an intimate relationship like no other, certainly not a job/employment situation..so references don't really fit the circumstance in that way, i agree.
:)

(in reply to shadevarr)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 3:44:54 AM

Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

While these can be good things to have, in the end it doesn't mean they are going to be what everyone says they are. Most people that are sickos you will find, people around them had no clue. It's sort of the "Ted Bundy syndrome".. nice, sweet, good looking, quiet..but a serial killer.

I do think it's great you are involved in the local community, it's a wonderful way to meet someone and get to know them, plus learn about safety and many other things. It's okay that you want these references and all, but don't let that be a safety net to being cautious otherwise. The reference in the end is only as good as the person it is about.

Kasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 5:29:11 AM

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

i was once told that unless i played in public how could i be trusted? What was i hiding? It's rubbish. While it's nice to be able to ask someone you know and trust to refer you to a good mechanic, hairdresser, doctor or BDSM partner, even that referral is no guarantee that it will be a good mechanic, hairdressor, doctor or BDSM partner for you. To get referrals from total strangers who i don't know or trust?? no thanks. Besides, there are inherant risks in what we do. A Dom can produce a health certificate but how do i know He boils his toys? Where has that rope been? There is no substitute for getting to know someone face to face.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to SlaveAkasha)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 5:46:15 AM

LW3

Posts: 59
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well.

and... why should I trust that people if I don't know them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master.

yes. you are wrong. if you need that to trust your Master what a poor excuse of a submisive you are. don't you trust your Master? then how can you be his slave?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

because I have earned your trust. it doesn't matter if I'm a member of a dungeon or not. what matters is if my actions have gained your trust or not.

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 5:49:51 AM

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline

~chuckle~

Uni, perhaps I am telling on my advanced degree of decripitude here, but a lot of ~cringe~ true Doms and Masters do not play in public, or have not played in public in a long time. They are private about their private lives. And giving Him your references and state of venereal health is fine ... but to expect Him to reciprocate is already nullifying His choices, in essence.

It is a dangerous world, true, but there is a far more subtle approach, one that is much more pleasing and less demanding. Get to know the person, have general talks that, in time, work into more intimate talks, ~then~ tell Him your concerns and ~ask~ if He is willing to address them.

Demanding such things up front says that you are planning on fucking Him. There is a lot to be said for feminine mystery, and like Focus said, there is a lot to be said for taking time to earn trust in a relationship. (Great post, Focus, btw.)

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 5:56:42 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

People without references dismiss their value for personal, not logical reasons (ie: they don't have them, so they denigrate them). But the BDSM community has a long tradition and history of using references, because they do provide meaningful information.

1. References from recognized groups, organizations, communities, etc. can be authenticated. As opposed to references from unknown individuals whose authenticity cannot be ascertained (in fact, the stranger writing you may even be the individual you're checking on writing to you from a different email address).

2. These references can authenticate an individual's personal history. It separates fact from fiction, and most people find it helpful to know (early on) whether someone is lying to them or not.

3. References can authenticate whether an individual's skill set is derived from community demos, workshops, dungeons, and interaction with real people, versus the internet (often from anonymous sources), magazines, books and interaction with inanimate objects. Some people will find this information valuable in discerning whether they will be someone's partner, or guinea pig.

4. References can authenticate an individual's reputation within the community. Most reputations are well earned, and some people will find it helpful to know how an individual has come to be thought of in that way (good or bad).

5. References can authenticate that an individual socializes real time with other lifestylers. Some people may want/need that socialization, others may not. Denying the value of socialization denies the very existence and popularity of boards like this.

6. Since the past is a predictor (though not a guarantor) of the future, these references can indicate that an individual will continue to benefit from the resources provided by their local community.

Like you, I (and the vast majority of folks I know) are more than happy to provide references where there is a mutual interest in getting to know one another. They provide a level of credibility at that crucial stage in which someone could be creating a fictitious persona and personal resume. I know, that would be a rareity online, wouldn't it?

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 5:59:50 AM

Posts: 1596
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unicorm2

When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

Who cares?

After exchanging emails and some chatting meet in a public place like a shopping
mall or a coffee shop. If you don't like what you see, just move on.

Diane

< Message edited by DianeB269 -- 12/16/2006 6:11:32 AM >

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:08:48 AM

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

People without references dismiss their value for personal, not logical reasons (ie: they don't have them, so they denigrate them). But the BDSM community has a long tradition and history of using references, because they do provide meaningful information.

1. References from recognized groups, organizations, communities, etc. can be authenticated. As opposed to references from unknown individuals whose authenticity cannot be ascertained (in fact, the stranger writing you may even be the individual you're checking on writing to you from a different email address).

2. These references can authenticate an individual's personal history. It separates fact from fiction, and most people find it helpful to know (early on) whether someone is lying to them or not.

3. References can authenticate whether an individual's skill set is derived from community demos, workshops, dungeons, and interaction with real people, versus the internet (often from anonymous sources), magazines, books and interaction with inanimate objects. Some people will find this information valuable in discerning whether they will be someone's partner, or guinea pig.

4. References can authenticate an individual's reputation within the community. Most reputations are well earned, and some people will find it helpful to know how an individual has come to be thought of in that way (good or bad).

5. References can authenticate that an individual socializes real time with other lifestylers. Some people may want/need that socialization, others may not. Denying the value of socialization denies the very existence and popularity of boards like this.

6. Since the past is a predictor (though not a guarantor) of the future, these references can indicate that an individual will continue to benefit from the resources provided by their local community.

Like you, I (and the vast majority of folks I know) are more than happy to provide references where there is a mutual interest in getting to know one another. They provide a level of credibility at that crucial stage in which someone could be creating a fictitious persona and personal resume. I know, that would be a rareity online, wouldn't it?

John

i live in rural South Carolina. The nearest dungeon is over 150 miles away and i do not have the resources in time or money to become a well-known member of the dungeon. There are people who know me, if asked i can name names but by this logic anyone who is geographically-challenged must be a fake? just curious.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:19:52 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i live in rural South Carolina. The nearest dungeon is over 150 miles away and i do not have the resources in time or money to become a well-known member of the dungeon. There are people who know me, if asked i can name names but by this logic anyone who is geographically-challenged must be a fake? just curious.

Don't be disingenuous, eyesopened. The world isn't fair, and everyone does not have equal access to all things. The fact that some people may not have local communities does not preclude the value of them (and their references) for those that do.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:28:59 AM

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

What about (realtively) inexperienced submissives? Or even Dominants?

I realize the submissive is usually the one asking for references (I don't, I go with my "gut", but I am very choosy - and I've had my "gut" fail me, too)

But - if a Dominant were to ask me for a "reference", I probably couldn't give him one.

1) There is no "dungeon" in my hometown (there's a quasi "Play-pit" spot, but I've only been there twice - nobody knows me well enough there to give a reference about me.

2) I have only attended two munches, and the people there hardly know me.

3) None of my (mostly) "vanilla" friends know I am even involved in bdsm (one of them does). I suppose the one friend could give a "character" reference, but nothing bdsm related.

4) I've only had one bdsm relationship - and because it took a horribly abusive turn (I was physically beaten to a pulp) - and am prosecuting my only ex-Dominant, I doubt he'd be a great "reference" for me (despite the fact we were together for over a year).

I would never hesitate to give someone medical proof that i haven't got AIDs or an STD, however.

So - what do "Newbies" do about references?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/16/2006 6:36:15 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Unicorm2)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:34:02 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

So - what do "newbies" do?

- Susan

Newbies tell the truth, and other people are free to decide for themselves whether that is a deal breaker or not.

I would suggest that most would understand that a newbie will have a difficult time supplying a reference. But when Master Monkey Nuts with thirty years in the lifestyle, has trained over 130 slaves, etc. can't come up with one, well, I'm a bit more suspicious.

Aren't you?

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:35:18 AM

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Don't be disingenuous, eyesopened. The world isn't fair, and everyone does not have equal access to all things. The fact that some people may not have local communities does not preclude the value of them (and their references) for those that do.

John

Thank You for clarifying.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:36:32 AM

Posts: 1596
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline

Never give your phone # out before meeting.....I made that mistake once and had to change my #.
Always meet in a VERY public place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Diane

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 6:37:16 AM

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Yes, I don't generally pay much heed to claims of X_ years of life-style "experience", as the term "experience" is so nebulously defined.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/16/2006 6:38:36 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rover)

RE: References - 12/16/2006 7:01:48 AM

Posts: 97
Status: offline

I have had references offered to me, I have been asked for references. I have gone into relationships using them; I have gone into relationships without them. Personally, they are not something that will make or break a possible connection for me.

(in reply to Unicorm2)

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