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Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:03:14 AM

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This is a bit of a rant and a bit of a cry for help. Please indulge me a little.

Situation: Engaged to a sub who lives with me (wedding a year or so out). We're both professionals with full-time jobs and lives etc etc etc. Pretty straight forward.

The problem is that, dispite several conversations about what exactly she is interested in from a D/s standpoint, she seems to have no interest in it when it comes time. She's disobedient, mouthy, selfish with seeming little concern for what I want. When I point this out, it's about 50/50 she'll realize what she's doing, apologize and fall into line, or just get huffy and either stomp off or give me the silent treatment.

Welcome to married life, eh?

She states repeatedly that she wants a 24/7 D/s relationship. Not really a TPE, but something that is all the times we're together. She's strong and I admire that (it helps her professional life), but I really am not sure if she know what she wants and as a result I'm not sure I know what she wants.

I guess my quandry is this. When a stubborn bratty (in the definition of being a 4 year old) bitchy sub just plain refuses to accept a punishment or play along, what's a dom supposed to do? I'll admit I'm a little inexperienced and learning a lot of this as I go, but I really seem to be missing something.

Last night, for example, we were lying in bed and she got mouthy and I tell her to go stand in the corner and her response is "Oh fuck that and she just rolled over." At that point it was like "y'know, I just don't want an argument or to put up with this crap - I'm tired and I have an early morning". This morning, she apologized for her behavior (unprompted) but I gotta get her to pay attention to her behavior at the time.

*smashes head on wall*

Thanks for letting me vent.

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:11:17 AM

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It sounds as though you aren't that well suited and it's good you discover this before the wedding. Some men enjoy mouthy women, apparently you get annoyed instead of laughing.

However, since you're both working full time, I am curious about who is responsible for the home care. Because I'd be tired and irritable if I worked 40 hours a week and then came home to have to do all the cooking and cleaning plus was deliberately sleep deprived by a partner.

He sends me to bed when I get overtired. He doesn't punish me for feeling unwell, instead he sees to my care. But he knows who he is and doesn't have to shore up his insecurities at my expense.

If you think the relationship has possibilities though, I would suggest couple therapy. It might help both of you decide exactly what you are looking for in a partner and whether or not you actually are compatible.

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:13:19 AM

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Show her the door and say good bye. I do not put up with crap from any sub. It's my
way or the highway. Very simply!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Diane

< Message edited by DianeB269 -- 5/3/2007 8:15:46 AM >

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:15:20 AM

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There's a lot to be done here.

First off- is there a deeper cause to her feeling insecure? Stress? Weight? Overall unease? Financial issues? She might be having issues that she doesn't know how to express openly andi t comes out through bad behavior.

Second, be specific in what behaviors you want her to change. Make a list if you have to to start out. It seems like you're both stuck in the rut of wanting things to change but not enacting change. Give her specific suggestions of what you expect at particular times. Give her structure. Say "When you ask me a question, I want you to start putting sir at the end of it" or "When you are upset, I want you to take a breath and then talk to me calmly about it"

*Adding- make this interactive. Include her in the decision process. Ask "how do you feel about this rule?" or "How would this make you feel?" It doesn't mean she's deciding on the rules, it means you're getting direct information on making the decision about the rules. Making her part of the process will make her feel more heard and as if she is an active part of things, not just a passive body.

And keep the list short to start. What you want is overall attitude and focus change- calling you sir is just a small part of getting to the long term results.

That's what 24/7 is like. Now, once you've given her those specifics, PAY ATTENTION. Now it's on you to work together to train her properly. She will make mistakes often. She will need to be ok with you pointing them out. Say she forgets to say sir, you can smile at her and say "What's the magic word?" Keep it light, keep it fun. You're LEARNING. In two years if she still isn't saying it, then you've got a real problem. The first two months however really shouldn't be more than gentle, consistent reminders.

And consistency will be your beacon here- you need to be watchful and give specific reminders. And in the beginning more than anything, praise when she acts well. You really want to get a heavy positive start on all these new behaviors because when she gets it wrong (and sometimes she will) she's got to have something to fall back on- that will be your previous praise AND knowing that you aren't going to get overly frustrated and are focused on the long term here.

Next, have weekly check ins. It doesn't have to be anything formal- just over dinner once a week ask how eachother is feeling with how it's going, what you like, what you don't like. Don't be afraid to change your mind if it's not working for you. If her calling you sir gets really grating, just let it go- but remember you know need to be even more patient in training it OUT of her.

Finally, do not rise to the occasion. If she behaves in ANY way you consider inappropriate, calmly and softly tell her what is inappropriate AND offer a better way to say it. If she doesn't comply, nod your head, tell her you understand she's not ready to talk yet and leave the room.

Doesn't matter what you were doing- leave the room, even if it's just to walk around the house once. If you have to come back for something, you can do so, but you won't engage in conversation with her for at least a few minutes. You're not giving her the silent treatment, if a half hour goes by, then by all means start talking normally- but NOT about what she had an issue on.

After an hour, you can go to her and ask if she's ready to talk about it properly now and go from there. But whatever you do, do NOT rise to her emotions, do NOT feed from them.

Finally, be forgiving of yourselves and eachother. This won't change overnight. You will have fights, you will fall down, you will both forget what you really want in the heat of the moment. But don't blame, don't drag up the past, just focus on what you want to be with eachother, be open about your insecurities, be specific in your orders, be consistent in following up, and don't rise to the bait.

See how easy that is? :)

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 5/3/2007 8:22:00 AM >

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(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:20:30 AM

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Wow, i've been there before as the bratty sub. Part of it was something within me, needing it to be forced out of me (the brat) and the person i was actually bottoming to (rather than truly submitting to) couldn't seem to be forceful enough consistently enough to make this occur. Part of it was me pushing buttons thinking that it would make him able to rise to the occasion so to speak. (obvious topping from the bottom and frustrating to both of us) The issues, after time, caused me to lose respect for him and it was more of a play time thing for me than something real (which i did want deep down)

Personally i think it is difficult if you have a pre-existing vanilla relationship and then you try to incorporate BDSM into it. But, i am just going on my own experience and i know that it does work for others....If she is submissive to you 24/7 is doesn't mean that she would loose her edge professionally because she would only be submissive to YOU, so don't worry about that part and reassure her about that as well....Consider that she may be trying to make you rise to the occasion, so to speak, challenge you to be MORE forceful (just guessing)...kind of like-GO STAND IN THE CORNER (and her respoonse is almosot like a Yeah, make me! atitude) maybe then you should make her (but not allow for that kind of behavior alot, as it is letting her get what she wants, and control you)

i guess something for you to consider is this...how badly do you personally WANT or NEED this to be a part of your relationship? What do YOU want from it? Can you live without it entirely? If you need it and want it and can't live without then i think taking a look at the relationship befoe you head down the aisle.(because you may not get what you need)....

i could just go on about this, but i don't know your relationship so i hope maybe i gave a point of view to consider.

edited to add: After reading L.A.s post, someone that has been involved in this longer than i have been, i want to clarify one point, and i actually wonder if i'm still wrong. (the part about rising to the occasion once) my point is that if you should do that then maybe the one time it would show her that you mean business. BUT it may not be as effective. But, i'm newer soooo i can't be certain (my Daddy's methods have been much different than in my past relationship and we BEGAN as a M/s relationship)

< Message edited by charismagirrl -- 5/3/2007 8:27:10 AM >

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(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:24:06 AM

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I would propose a sit down conversation about the relationship expectations and what will happen if those expectations are not met.
It almost sounds to me like there has not been enough communication though I could be wrong. Maybe you both have very different ideas and expectations of what D/s is for each of you.

If it were me, I would set a time that was low stress.......not right after work but a time that can be as relaxed as possible, with no interuptions. Turn off the phones, tv, lock the doors, and talk. As her questions, find out what she wants out of a relationship. Maybe she thinks kinky play is the goal, you won't know until you discuss it, in detail. Then once you both have expressed your expectations you can see if there is a middle ground or maybe even just a you ground, that can be agreed upon.

Once you get to a point that both of you agree, you both want the same or similar things, and you both really want to work towards that same goal, create a contract, written if need be. This is what is expected and this is what will happen if those expectations are not met.

Obviously things can be and probably will be, renegotiated as the relationship progresses BUT it is very important that you have laid the ground work.

Also, if it were me, I would put the wedding on hold until the two of you are both on the same page. If you don't you are just asking for bigger troubles further down the road.

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(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:30:26 AM

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1 - Do you both really, truly, want d/s to be a central part of your relationship? 24/7 is not for everyone - not by a long shot. There's nothing wrong with a relationship that's usually egalitarian, but d/s comes out to play when you're both in the mood.

2 - Other than the d/s, do you two get along well? This can, indeed, be what married life is like - that's why divorce lawyers are busy.

3 - Is it possible that she's wanting to be conquered? I've seen subs like that - if they haven't seen the uber-dom recently, their behavior gets progressively worse until they're forcibly (via personality, not muscle) dommed into behaving - then their behavior is fine, until they start to crave being forced again. Not always a pretty cycle.

You're getting some good advice (though LA is more focused on calm and nonreactive than I'd ever be) - I hope it works out for you both.

Midnight Writer

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(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:32:57 AM

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I have said to my boy once or twice. Are you my boy, (Yes) then really you don't have a choice do you. (No, but ..) Good I don't give a damn get in the corner NOW and think about what you have done. He may come out of it pissed, but I don't care it was his behavior that got him there in the first place. Most times he will come out with his "tail between his legs". The other thing is that he KNOWS that this is a 7X24 real life has been for 13 years and that I will not accept anything less than that. You need to make it clear that less than this is not something you want to be part of. In the beginning I said, no matter how much I love you, I can do without you. I will not live my life outside of 7x24 D/s, that is not acceptable to me. We both have busy demanding jobs, so a few times punishment has been delayed because of this. But he knows that as soon as possiable he will be punished.

Hope this helps,
Mike

(in reply to DianeB269)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:37:56 AM

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Read LA's post and charismagirls two or three times.

You CAN do this but it will require a few changes on BOTH your parts.

She is acting out HOPING you will force her to submit. You can't. She doesn't know that the fantasy of being forced is just that, it is in fact abuse. Once she DOES submit, you CAN force her. Seems confusing on your end but not from mine.

Thinking of how you would deal with a child is a useful model on how to deal with a submissive. It has its limits as you are actually dealing with a legal adult whom you have no real control over. As LA said, focus on positive reinforcement of good behavior, and loving disapointment to bad. You need to be consistent with this, you are in fact training her. The hard part to wrap your head around is she probably DOES want to kneel at your feet and probably does most when she is being her worst.

In your rolling over in bed example, imagine if you had said to her instead. When you are ready to be my good girl AGAIN (implying that she IS your good girl and it is THIS behavior that is bad, NOT her) you can come kneel at my feet and appologize for being bratty. I want to sleep next to my good girl and I will be waiting for her on the couch, if I am asleep, simply whisper "Sir" softly until I wake up. Then you can appologize and I will carry you back to MY bed and brush your hair till you fall to sleep.

MANY ways to do the above but that is what works for me. The keys are, she doesn't get her way, you have told her she is a good girl, that her behavior is bad, and told her exactly what she has to do to return to your good graces, AND you have offered her what she craves, your dominance and love.

Trust me, I spent three years dealing with that shit on some level and if I had gotten the kind of advice you are getting here, it would have been FAR easier. You CAN do this, but two new people trying to work all this out is VERY VERY hard but it CAN be done. She WANTS you, if she didn't she would leave. She doesn't know how to submit, you need to teach her. In warfare, it is smart to block all exits but the one you want your enemy to take. Dominance is similar. make it clear that the only way to GET your dominance is to submit. Make it clear they can run all they want and that while you think they look great running, the only way they can get what they crave is to crawl back.

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:50:30 AM

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I agree with "simplemichaels" post.

She may just be pushing your limits and wanting you to take that level of control, your options..

1. Grab her by the neck and toss her in a corner and tell her to stay there the rest of the night and think about what "she" wants. She will either submit or leave..

2. Continue to allow her actions to control you. and run the good change of going "vanilla" in your relationship.

3. Sit down with her and discuss openly what YOU want and expect from her.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 8:52:06 AM

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Thanks all. Some really great advice.

Generally, I do believe in positive re-enforcement rather than abusive-like responses; I'd rather she realize her mistakes and misbehaviors herself rather than me pound her over the head with them again and again. Timeouts, in theory, are good for this (the psychologist in me emerging).

The problem I'm having (and the reponses here are giving me some better ways to deal with this) is getting inside her head enough to make sure I'm providing what she needs and that she CAN provide what I want.We've talked, ad naseum, about whether this is what she wants. We met on collarme, so we went into this eyes-open to the "lifestyle" and spent a lot of time before getting engaged and moving in together discussing the various nuances of it to define what we are seeking. But now that we're together permanantly, it's like we're starting over and I just can't get through that damn strong-willed front that in many ways I love, but that also makes it soooooo infuriating.

[Oh, and add to this wedding planning stresses to (ugh, I really think Vegas sounds great!)]

Thanks for all your advice, I am looking forward to more thoughts too.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:11:55 AM

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All you can do is present an environment in which she will submit, willingly. Do you want to play games? She likes to and you seem to be helping her. Is this someone you want to spend married life with??

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RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:12:59 AM

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Thunder,

You are welcome to inbox me anytime and in my limited experience, the ones like you are having to deal with are the worst submissives until they become the best. Either way you are in for an interesting ride.

She is used to getting what she wants and is skilled at getting it. She is trying to "get/take" your dominance for her use and doesn't realize that that is the wrong tack. She wants to submit but doesn't know how. Be a rock and don't react to the bullshit. When she is being good, dominate the hell out of her, when she is being a pissy cunt, ignore her, not abandon her, just as LA said, walk off. Keep shaking your head no (figuratively) as long as she is trying to force your dominance out of you. When she IS submitting, pour it on, give it to her. She WILL become better and so will you.

You have the ideal situation, you live with her and she is going to be your life partner. Ask LA to give you a list of links to those posts where women have posted realizing they WERE trying to take someones dominance rather than submit to it.

And just know you are doing fine, imperfect as you are I am sure most here, especially me, have made worse mistakes!

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:15:44 AM

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Would I have put so much thought and effort into a well rounded post for a situation I didn't see had a lot of good potential? :)

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:17:52 AM

phoenixinchains

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i've been trying to put all my brain towards replying to this.
1st, my first appeal to submissive was the realazation that i could be very self-absurbed(only child syndrom : P ), and the guidance of a Dom could correct this.
2nd, "bratty play" was maybe a what one might call, O/our cross-over into BDSM.
3rd, even now, i submit two ways; "surrender" in which i will not counter any any command save using a safe-word. this fulfils my maso-side. and "resistant" in which my Mate can conquer me. i may be bratty in the use of barbed wit, scratching, slapping, kicking, and so on. this fulfils my sado-side, all while retaining my submission by ending the session Dominated to my Mate's satisfaction.
None of this happened over-night, it's been a seven year process, just like everything else in our marriage. the real issue is that of will. does she truely want it? do You have the will to see it through? i hope this insight to the matter can help. best of wishes- phoenix

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:29:25 AM

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Thunder,

You have a lot of really good advice here. Michael, LA and Charisma have all said what I am about to put in a slightly different way. I am going to start out with an observation from experience. The fault is not in your fiance', but in yourself. You do not need to "dump" her, you need to work on your own ability to train and lead another human being. I was where you are not all that long ago. You want a great D/s relationship, but you don't want to have to deal with adversity to get there. Sorry, it ain't going to go that way.

Let me preface everything that I am about to say by pointing out that you do need to sit down whith her and establish that this lifestyle really is what she wants. Make her think about everything that it really entails. My guess is that she has already acknowledged that it is, and is waiting for you to start being dominant. She probably doesn't even know that that is what she is doing.

Now, assuming she acknowledges that she wants a D/s lifestyle. Now, I have an assignment for you, I want you to watch a television show on Animal Planet called "the Dog Whisperer". Take everything the man says on that show and apply it to the human relationship you have with her and things will start to change very quickly. That show is all about dominance and how to apply it in a D/s relationship. Of course, I wouldn't necessarily tell her the source upon which you are basing your pre-marital counseling, she will likely get a little upset.

However, the principals that that show espouses apply to any relationship that involves a power exchange. You are not first and foremost her lover or her friend or her confidant. First and foremost, you are the master. If she is disrespectful, like rolling over and saying "screw that", she is really asking for you to prove yourself. If you do not, then the whole image is shattered. Michael's approach is a great one, remove yourself from the bed and tell her that when she is ready to show you the respect she acknowledges is due, things can return to normalcy. Remember, when she does finally "come around", you cannot "ease up". The next morning, when she apologized, did you make her then stand in the corner three times as long or make an appointment to do as much that night? You need to stop worrying about whether what you do will annoy her or if she won't like it. Stop fearing that she will actually tell you she wants out and shatter the illusion of dominance. Instead, give her the opportunity to experience you as a truly dominant man. Remember, she should be worrying about whether you are annoyed, you shouldn't worry in the least whether she is. That is really what she needs, not a pal.

Enforce dominance in subtle ways, next time you are at a restaurant, order her meal for her. Order her something you know she likes, but don't give her the right to order for herself. Start making up a menu at home, if she cooks, great, but you determine what will be cooked. When you actually give her an instruction, do not "let it go" if she refuses or does not do it. That doesn't mean you have to be abusive, simply that you let her know how disappointed you are and that things will not be "right" between you until she complies. Remember, despite everything you read about punishments and spankings and all the rest of it, most "subs" will find being ignored to be the absolute worst thing that the man they love can do to them. In fact, it is such an effective punishment that it should be used selectively and even sparingly. Do it too much and she will leave you. When she does comply, give her some consequences for the refusal or stubbornness. Give her the gift of having to make pennance and atonement to you. If she is what she says she wants to be, then she will love you all the more for it. Make yourself into something of value to her. Strategically speaking, her submission to you is a gift, but you shouldn't feel appreciative with every display of it, the overall gift is appreciated, the individual occurrences of it are simply what is expected that make up that gift. Never thank her for compliance, just reward her in ways that also reinforce your dominance.

Now, once you start doing these things consistently, you will find certain things to be true. First, you will not feel like equals and you will feel as though you have lost the friendship you used to have. If you stick with it, though, eventually she will become the person you want her to be and then, amazingly, you will be friends again, closer friends than you ever thought possible. Second, she may well come to realize that the fantasy of D/s is very different than the reality. At that point you both have to decide whether or not to pursue the lifestyle or each other. The good news is that you have a whole year to determine which way things will go.

Now, get out there watch "The Dog Whisperer", it will teach you more about a D/s rlationship than anything you will ever learn in these forums. When you have watched a few episodes of that, we can start talking about horse training, which is also similar to interhuman relationships, LOL.

Good luck to you both, I hope you find what you are looking for. If it turns out that you make a better "vanilla" couple than a D/s couple, then great, but don't give up on a woman you love easily either way.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:30:03 AM

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Oh, that's a good idea too- tell her she can act out and fight back, but she has to ask permission first. Once she has permission, she can fight as much as she wants until you decide it's enough. This can give her a "safe zone" to get out her aggression and really ler her feel physically dominated.

Just make sure it's the good kind of aggression and not the avoidance or lashing out type.

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(in reply to phoenixinchains)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:31:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

She is acting out HOPING you will force her to submit. You can't. She doesn't know that the fantasy of being forced is just that, it is in fact abuse. Once she DOES submit, you CAN force her. Seems confusing on your end but not from mine.

I agree that she can't be forced to submit, however, I don't agree with your proclamation of what it is that she wants. I don't believe anyone but the woman in question knows just exactly she's hoping for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Thinking of how you would deal with a child is a useful model on how to deal with a submissive.

This wouldn't work for everyone. In fact, I would hazard a guess in this case that his treating her like a child by ordering her to the corner might be doing more to elicit the poor behavior than not.

I will very plainly state that I am one who does not appreciate that type of treatment. I am not a child... I am a grown and intelligent woman... please treat me as such. Of course, others feel differently and embrace this dynamic, but it sounds as if her response wasn't one that indicated her submissive core was struck by his domliness and she was swooning at his feet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It has its limits as you are actually dealing with a legal adult whom you have no real control over. As LA said, focus on positive reinforcement of good behavior, and loving disapointment to bad. You need to be consistent with this, you are in fact training her. The hard part to wrap your head around is she probably DOES want to kneel at your feet and probably does most when she is being her worst.

Again, I'm not quite in agreement with how you've got her pegged, particularly your last sentence, but I think you are on the right track here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

In your rolling over in bed example, imagine if you had said to her instead. When you are ready to be my good girl AGAIN (implying that she IS your good girl and it is THIS behavior that is bad, NOT her) you can come kneel at my feet and appologize for being bratty. I want to sleep next to my good girl and I will be waiting for her on the couch, if I am asleep, simply whisper "Sir" softly until I wake up. Then you can appologize and I will carry you back to MY bed and brush your hair till you fall to sleep.

But then again...

*sighs* Once more, this approach might work beautifully with some, and, it might be perfect with the woman in question... however, it also sounds annoyingly condescending and might elicit results just the opposite of what the OP desires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

MANY ways to do the above but that is what works for me.

To give an alternate example, if I were to say something to FirmhandKY in a manner that he considered inappropriate, all he would need to do would be to point out that my choice of words or tone of voice were disrespectful and that he expects better of me. It doesn't take much to remind me of my place, but in the case of the woman in question, if the OP felt he needed to remind her of her chosen position, he could simply add to that by questioning her if she feels it is appropriate for a submissive to speak to her dominant in that manner. In other words, give her the opportunity to arrive at the same conclusion.

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Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:36:10 AM

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

She sounds as though as she doesn't want to submit and wants to get her way. You have to decide if you want to put up with this. You can't make someone submit they have to want to do it. You can sent some rules and boundaries with her and if she isn't willing to follow those then you two need to decide if this is how you want your dynamics and relationship to be.

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Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

RE: Dealing with childish, bratty, selfish subs - 5/3/2007 9:40:15 AM

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
She is acting out HOPING you will force her to submit. You can't. She doesn't know that the fantasy of being forced is just that, it is in fact abuse. Once she DOES submit, you CAN force her. Seems confusing on your end but not from mine.

Sometimes Michael You hit the nail so squarely on the head that there is no room for improvement. Spot on!

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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

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