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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/13/2007 4:39:36 PM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirButchTX

I was married..so yeah..I was a sub first. If I hadn't done all the housework, cooked all the meals and generally kept the house together, it would have fallen apart and I would have been homeless....so what do you think? All joking aside (some of that was joking) everyone has both dominant and submissive tendencies. Not that many will cop to it, but if we are going to wax eloquent about honesty, perhaps a little self honesty should be included. When my sub was injured in a car wreck and had to be helped out of bed to go to the bathroom, I was more than happy to help. I served her meals in bed, I cared for her when she could not, and I felt a great deal of gratification when I saw her smile or say thank you. Those are definitely submissive traits. Could I do it for an extended period of time...no, I could not. When circumstances are just so, the other part of our psyche will surface to deal with the situation as needed.

SirButch.

that doesnt strike me as submissive. that strikes me as caring for someone you are responsible for.

Dom or sub, its a good quality to have.

kitten, who has to be taken care of sometimes and hates it.....

(in reply to SirButchTX)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/14/2007 2:32:20 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Obviously you would proffer the same moronic advice to heteros who equally haven't experienced a gay encounter to appreciate what being hetero really is? While we're at it, perhaps all males should get about clothed and groomed as women for awhile; to equally give them the "right attitude" toward women and personal relationships, too?

Everyone can run their life as they please. I avoid people who equate bisexuality in men with lack of masculinity and I avoid people who equate being female with being humiliated, just as I choose to pass over people who equate submission with a "lowering" of themselves or innately humiliating or below them.

I'm not entirely sure why you're quoting me here - unless these 3 points you make are in fact counterpoints to something you interpret (incorrectly) as being my meaning?

For the record, I often use gay analogies in topics such as this because no-one ever dares suggest gays do what they do just for kink or experience etc, as opposed to what they're innately wired to do. They do what is normal and natural for them; just as submitting, for eg, is NOT normal behaviour for a Dominant - IMO. Lol, can't wait for the "normal Police" to start banging on my door....

Focus.

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

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Post #: 82

RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/14/2007 11:42:08 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Whoa - yorta be careful how you throw that "real" word about...! I implied a dom who subs is a switch - did NOT say anything about individuals not being real. Just as I would equally imply a hetero seeking a gay experience is at least bi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

For the record, I often use gay analogies in topics such as this because no-one ever dares suggest gays do what they do just for kink or experience etc, as opposed to what they're innately wired to do. They do what is normal and natural for them; just as submitting, for eg, is NOT normal behaviour for a Dominant - IMO. Lol, can't wait for the "normal Police" to start banging on my door....

Focus.

You know...I kind of gave up on this thread since I decided it was more productive to share my viewpoints with the rocks in my garden.

At least I can smoke then.

But just cant help myself lol...this is just soooo WRONG.

Both of these statements are horribly flawed and the absolute height of short sighted close mindedness.

Equating an openmindness to exploration and self discovery to automatically determing the orientation of a person is wrong.

I've had homosexual experiences. I've actively sought homosexual experiences. Not out of a desire or sexual attraction to men that I felt, but rather to see if I could in fact do it and how I would react given the experience.

The experience however didnt get very far at all before I said "This isnt for me. I'm just not attracted to men and I cant do it."

The idea that I actively sought an experience automatically makes me a bisexual and not that my reaction from the experience is what determined completely that I was straight is idiotic.

The experience in itself was rewarding and built character. I left it with a deeper sense of security in my own desires, a looseness regarding contact with men and a deeper sense of respect for homosexual men.

Since then, my interest is still primarily in women and I have no desire to be with men. However, I would allow myself to do S/M with a man in the same way I would allow a man to cut my hair. Non sexual, but still contact.

Now if someone wants to sit there and go "Nuh uh, nuh uh. Your just confused about yourself. Your really are bisexual"

Well...

You dont know me. You werent there. You dont know my desires.

I'm laughing at you, buddy.

Saying someone sucks one cock automatically makes them a bisexual or serving a dominant automatically makes them a switch is the same logic as saying drinking one cup of tea makes them a tea drinker or building a bridge makes them a bridge builder.

Orientations are decided solely based on desires, not activities.

I am really enjoying listening to you equating your own closemindness to trying new experiences with determing other people's identities for them.

As well as listening to you pontificate on what exactly "normal" behavior is based solely on your own assumptions and short sighted view of how people should act.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 12:00:08 AM

BitaTruble

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~FR~ I may study politics, but it doesn't make me a politician. It simply means I'm a student of politics. There are plenty of dominants who have bottomed for the same reason. They want to learn. I don't think that makes them a switch or a submissive. It just makes them a student.

That said, I don't think one can learn to be a submissive or even know what a submissive mindset is simply by partaking in some S&M or service to a dominant. IMO, submission lies within the realm of the head and the heart and what you 'do' has little to do with what you 'are'. In other words, a dominant who is taking on the role of a submissive in order to understand submission isn't really gonna 'get it' because they won't 'be' a submissive. You know.. like.. I'm not a doctor but I play one on tv?

Ugh, that's not exactly right either but it's probably close enough for almost 2 AM.

I might come back tomorrow, read this and think.. 'wtf ?'

Celeste

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 2:47:43 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I'm laughing at you, buddy.

Well this sucks - to respond to this bitter nonsense creates the very real likelihood you'll scurry off back into cyber-space for..... errr, what.... the 3rd time now? But I get the gist of your rationale - that left is right, east is west, up is down, black is white blah blah.... Clear as mud like usual....

The nineties was where you could be anything you want (apparently) and I would imagine your age means you just missed out? But if you ever do decide what you wanna be when (and if) you grow up, maybe then you're entitled to preach to others about "getting past" whatever (from a previous post)....

So laugh away; I've taken your "best" shots and then you run away when I respond - yet I haven't had to stoop to personal insults in seeing you off.... Mate you sure talk up a good game but, <yawn>, is this all you've really got? Tell the rocks I said 'hi'....

Focus.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 8:41:51 AM

Grlwithboy

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One question. If everything MadRabbit's talking about is so woo woo touchy feely nineties bullshit, why is this a system valued by the people who menotored me, who were mentored in the early 80s? Why is this a system even more valued by the people who mentored them, who were mentored in the early 60's?

(in reply to Focus50)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 9:29:04 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I'm laughing at you, buddy.

Well this sucks - to respond to this bitter nonsense creates the very real likelihood you'll scurry off back into cyber-space for..... errr, what.... the 3rd time now? But I get the gist of your rationale - that left is right, east is west, up is down, black is white blah blah.... Clear as mud like usual....

The nineties was where you could be anything you want (apparently) and I would imagine your age means you just missed out? But if you ever do decide what you wanna be when (and if) you grow up, maybe then you're entitled to preach to others about "getting past" whatever (from a previous post)....

So laugh away; I've taken your "best" shots and then you run away when I respond - yet I haven't had to stoop to personal insults in seeing you off.... Mate you sure talk up a good game but, <yawn>, is this all you've really got? Tell the rocks I said 'hi'....

Focus.

Just condescending, hidden insults.

It gets old listening to someone who is just being argumentative rather than actually discussing the issue at hand.

And seeing as how you havent actually argued any points I have made with logic, I will take this as a sign that you are in fact wrong.

Generally, when people grow up, they learn more and more that the world doesnt work in black and white terms and works more in grey. Are you sure your actually as old as you claim to be?

Why would I want to keep responding to someone whos entire argument is based on the fact I am confused about myself and I am too young to know what I am talking about?

I dont need the last word either. You can have it

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/15/2007 9:56:11 AM >

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 9:43:57 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~FR~ I may study politics, but it doesn't make me a politician. It simply means I'm a student of politics. There are plenty of dominants who have bottomed for the same reason. They want to learn. I don't think that makes them a switch or a submissive. It just makes them a student.

That said, I don't think one can learn to be a submissive or even know what a submissive mindset is simply by partaking in some S&M or service to a dominant. IMO, submission lies within the realm of the head and the heart and what you 'do' has little to do with what you 'are'. In other words, a dominant who is taking on the role of a submissive in order to understand submission isn't really gonna 'get it' because they won't 'be' a submissive. You know.. like.. I'm not a doctor but I play one on tv?

Ugh, that's not exactly right either but it's probably close enough for almost 2 AM.

I might come back tomorrow, read this and think.. 'wtf ?'

Celeste

From talking to other dominants who are Leather, they inform me that the real value of the experience is in the character it builds and so you dont grow up to be a 53 year old man who views submission in terms of weakness and humilitation.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 9:54:55 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

One question. If everything MadRabbit's talking about is so woo woo touchy feely nineties bullshit, why is this a system valued by the people who menotored me, who were mentored in the early 80s? Why is this a system even more valued by the people who mentored them, who were mentored in the early 60's?

Unfortanely, Focus50 has never actually been apart of the public scene so he really is just talking out of his ass with negative assumptions like he does with most things. I personally enjoy reading his posts because I can learn so much about what I will learn and wont learn from the experiences he's never had that he pontificates about.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 6:57:40 PM

SimplyMichael

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Damn.

A knock out drag out fight and I wasn't in the middle of it. Must have been that scene I did last night as a bottom where I learned a lot about myself as well as some good stuff for mindfucks.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 7:21:58 PM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Damn.

A knock out drag out fight and I wasn't in the middle of it. Must have been that scene I did last night as a bottom where I learned a lot about myself as well as some good stuff for mindfucks.

Damn. I still can't believe I missed last night Michael!

Poor Focus. How very sad for narrowminded (or is it closed minded? I never can get those terms straight) old folks like him. They never can see the forest for the trees can they?

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/15/2007 8:42:27 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear jthaddeus, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I spent many years on the receiving side of the whip, which taught me a lot and can see from that side many things that cannot be best placed into words, as words fail at time to capture the feelings, emotions, senses and the moment; to where everybody understands it without putting their spin on things.

Being in a slave situation and serving situation, as a Dominant -- I don't ask any more than I have done, was willing to do myself and can relate to those who do serve in a slave position with me. I feel it has made me a better Master and the pool of knowledge and information to draw from.

As far as the fear of hurting people, it is a good fear and to be respected. That 'fear' to me, in my own mind's eyes I see --keeps me within the boundaries of ethical behavior, a moral obligation to leave a person in a better position and or place than when I found them. In negotiation where physical pain, marking and or bruises take place, the choices are made as to come to an agreement of what is considered 'hurting' them in which, in their minds believe it to be hurtful and not something they would want to try again. This is why communication is important to me, as to exchange what is very important between 'intent' to hurt and those times when the participation in S&M, BDSM and of D/s and or M/s; there are going to be accidents and risks involved, as well as injuries. I think of fear of hurting someone over all as 'compassion.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to jthaddeus)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 4:13:04 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

One question. If everything MadRabbit's talking about is so woo woo touchy feely nineties bullshit, why is this a system valued by the people who menotored me, who were mentored in the early 80s? Why is this a system even more valued by the people who mentored them, who were mentored in the early 60's?

You've got me there; I've never needed to be mentored in my personal relationships - this is an American cultural tradition?

Focus.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 4:25:01 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

.... a 53 year old man who views submission in terms of weakness and humilitation.

Since this is absolutely not my belief at all, and you won't find it posted *anywhere* under my name, I hafta conclude that once more you're projecting your own confused thought processes onto me. G'won, tell me how you weren't referring to me; it's just a remorseless barrage of blanks from you, ay? lol

Focus.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 4:36:20 AM

wwwkevinww

Posts: 276
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I have never been a submissive. I know of a few women who tried one end and have switched to try the other. Its also possible I'd might try the other side if I met someone I thought I could trust who wasn't completely sadistic and insane and into my kinks. I find many women who aren't into what I'm into and if they are dominant it wouldn't be a good match, because their interests don't overlap mine. Since I think I'm naturally dominant, I also think I'd have a hard time relinquishing total control, and not sure how healthy that is anyhows, because there are certain things I would never want to try. (female hormones to grow breasts, etc).......

(in reply to Focus50)

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 4:36:58 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Damn.

A knock out drag out fight and I wasn't in the middle of it. Must have been that scene I did last night as a bottom where I learned a lot about myself as well as some good stuff for mindfucks.

Considering you're equally as adept as MadRabbit at running and hiding when the heat's put back on you, I'm stunned you'd even know what a "knock out drag out fight" even is - unless you're really only a perennial spectator who just snipes occasionally?

Focus.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 4:44:05 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
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quote:

BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Damn.

A knock out drag out fight and I wasn't in the middle of it. Must have been that scene I did last night as a bottom where I learned a lot about myself as well as some good stuff for mindfucks.

Damn. I still can't believe I missed last night Michael!

Poor Focus. How very sad for narrowminded (or is it closed minded? I never can get those terms straight) old folks like him. They never can see the forest for the trees can they?

Last and least - the fight groupie..... *yawn*

I can't be bothered looking but you've already responded to the topic, right? I mean this isn't just some lame-duck drive-by post where you barrack from the bleachers like some vaccuous loudmouth at a sporting event?

Go you!

Focus.

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 8:59:52 AM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

One question. If everything MadRabbit's talking about is so woo woo touchy feely nineties bullshit, why is this a system valued by the people who menotored me, who were mentored in the early 80s? Why is this a system even more valued by the people who mentored them, who were mentored in the early 60's?

You've got me there; I've never needed to be mentored in my personal relationships - this is an American cultural tradition?

Focus.

Leatherfolk, Alyson Publications. While you may be content to D/s however you like as an island, some people don't.
One doesn't HAVE to participate in the public scene, but consistently calling some of its well-established protocols "moronic" isn't going to go over smoothly with people who do hold that subculture dear. It may not be your cup of beverage, but whether it is or not you may find it an interesting piece of history dating back to mid-century and prior, and you might want to consider that a lot of people consider themselves heir to this kind of dynamic who post here.

As it is, dismissing the notion of "bottoming up" (a phrase I don't care for, but it works) as recent, "new age" and a dilution of more solid old values is uninformed.

A lot of assertions are made about the roots of 50's US gay leather being in the military, some of it true some not, but this notion that one always starts out a private seems to carry over. Some privates are identified as leaders immediately, and groomed as such, some are not, some transition into leadership over time.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/16/2007 9:11:00 AM >

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 10:37:51 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Leatherfolk, Alyson Publications. While you may be content to D/s however you like as an island, some people don't.
One doesn't HAVE to participate in the public scene, but consistently calling some of its well-established protocols "moronic" isn't going to go over smoothly with people who do hold that subculture dear. It may not be your cup of beverage, but whether it is or not you may find it an interesting piece of history dating back to mid-century and prior, and you might want to consider that a lot of people consider themselves heir to this kind of dynamic who post here.

As it is, dismissing the notion of "bottoming up" (a phrase I don't care for, but it works) as recent, "new age" and a dilution of more solid old values is uninformed.

A lot of assertions are made about the roots of 50's US gay leather being in the military, some of it true some not, but this notion that one always starts out a private seems to carry over. Some privates are identified as leaders immediately, and groomed as such, some are not, some transition into leadership over time.

Just one thing I wanted to add in terms of historical roots of switching to learn about ___. In Leatherfolk, they have an essay from a man who was brought up into leather in the 50s who did not switch to become a better top, but rather apprenticed. And certainly my owner, who isn't old guard but has been around for almost 20 years did apprenticing rather than switching. So there is a historical precedence for that option as well that is just as valid.

C~

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RE: How many Doms were subs first? - 7/16/2007 12:33:46 PM

Grlwithboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

Leatherfolk, Alyson Publications. While you may be content to D/s however you like as an island, some people don't.
One doesn't HAVE to participate in the public scene, but consistently calling some of its well-established protocols "moronic" isn't going to go over smoothly with people who do hold that subculture dear. It may not be your cup of beverage, but whether it is or not you may find it an interesting piece of history dating back to mid-century and prior, and you might want to consider that a lot of people consider themselves heir to this kind of dynamic who post here.

As it is, dismissing the notion of "bottoming up" (a phrase I don't care for, but it works) as recent, "new age" and a dilution of more solid old values is uninformed.

A lot of assertions are made about the roots of 50's US gay leather being in the military, some of it true some not, but this notion that one always starts out a private seems to carry over. Some privates are identified as leaders immediately, and groomed as such, some are not, some transition into leadership over time.

Just one thing I wanted to add in terms of historical roots of switching to learn about ___. In Leatherfolk, they have an essay from a man who was brought up into leather in the 50s who did not switch to become a better top, but rather apprenticed. And certainly my owner, who isn't old guard but has been around for almost 20 years did apprenticing rather than switching. So there is a historical precedence for that option as well that is just as valid.

C~

Absolutely a good point. I think it takes a certain amount of humility to apprentice which is also absent from "I spring fully formed from the head of Zeus as DOM" mentality too though, no?

If I made things appear uniform or monolithic in that post, I didn't mean to. Not everyone did everything identically 30 years ago any more so than now. But again, the assertion that this bottoming first thing is some sort of dilute kid thing isn't accurate, whether or not every last person did it.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/16/2007 12:37:44 PM >

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