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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I find the "What if everyone is perfect and nothing is hard to them" argument to be very weak and impractical.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie


Thank you. What if shit if is just worked out together and the slave just adapts, no fuss, no muss, what if nothing you ask of her presents a "trial" or seems like any kind of sacrifice...Do you keep upping the ante until you find something?

Seems silly to me.

Once again, you are assuming that I am constantly making things more difficult and uping the "ante".

I am talking philosophically about one single act.

Would you find more pride and fulfillment in someone who made a sandwich for you or someone who quit smoking for you?

Making a sandwich is rather easy. Doesnt really take any relative amount of suffering or challenge to complete the task for the Master.

Quitting smoking, however, takes weeks of suffering threw withdrawals, resisting cravings, and maintating a strong will. I know. I am still trying to get a permenant hold on my smoking.

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Again, I'm fine with you valuing suffering and endurance and wanting it in your life, that's fine.  But keep it to your life, and don't suggest I should share that value.  And if you should suggest my partner somehow is less respected by me because I do not choose to increase his suffering, I'll laugh at you.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

all of the above...learning to be a gourmet cook...losing incredible amounts of weight...acquiring financial wealth, all done under his control and for his benefit are wonderful, beautiful...such learning is likely a part of most successful M/s dynamics. however such things cannot compare to the internal growth and self-awareness that can be brought about by great trials, imposed by the Master. yes of course life has its own trials, for the both of you, that is somthing different.

What if nothing is a great trial though? Does he just keep upping the ante until he finds something? For what purpose..what if she seriously is absolutely obedient without being a sniveling brat about it?

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also, i am not referring to anything "artificial" or contrived, as in some Master saying, "i want to prove that you are my property, therefore you must do this difficult thing," no, nothing that deliberate. it's more going about daily life, during the course of which the Master makes demands of and subjects his slaves to whatever he wills. sometimes these things are easy...buttering his toast in a particular way for instance. sometimes these things are difficult, like out of the blue being told that in a few minutes he will be dropping you off at the home of a sadistic Dominant (total stranger to you the slave), and you must serve him well, for the next 3, 4, 5 hours or so, without your Master's presence. the Master demands the same unhesitating obedience and acceptance in either situation. it is a sign of growth when the slave is able to achieve this, and a symbol (this is what i meant earlier by "mark") of his ownership that he can demand one as easily as the other.

Uh OK...what if neither invokes her having a shit fit and finding it hard..what if she just goes and does it?

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again, by no means am i saying that hardships and suffering are a necessity for slavery. we're already established that ownership is the only necessity for slavery. however for some (like myself) an environment of slavery where there is never any struggle or sacrifice can be extremely detrimental to the fabric of the dynamic, leading to complacency, selfishness, and other traits which are not complementary to slavery.

OK...what if nothing he would ever do is a hardship to or for her? He is supposed to create suffering and sacrifice  for her by making her do things he doesn't want done so she doesn't -start- to feel selfish and complacent?....ummmm..if that is the case she already is very selfish.

What if the world blew up right now and everyone died?

How would you continue to come up with endless "What if" scenarios to debunk a philosophy and concept that you didnt personally like?

You wanted to understand the value and philosophy of something. People here have provided it.

Anyone can provide endless "What if" scenarios to anything to debunk how it would not work.

You are taking a concept behind a single act and applying it to the extreme.

I find the "What if everyone is perfect and nothing is hard to them" argument to be very weak and impractical.

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

What if nothing is a great trial though? Does he just keep upping the ante until he finds something? For what purpose..what if she seriously is absolutely obedient without being a sniveling brat about it?

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

OK...what if nothing he would ever do is a hardship to or for her? He is supposed to create suffering and sacrifice  for her by making her do things he doesn't want done so she doesn't -start- to feel selfish and complacent?....ummmm..if that is the case she already is very selfish.

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie


Thank you. What if shit if is just worked out together and the slave just adapts, no fuss, no muss, what if nothing you ask of her presents a "trial" or seems like any kind of sacrifice...Do you keep upping the ante until you find something?

Seems silly to me.

Once again, you are assuming that I am constantly making things more difficult and uping the "ante".

I am talking philosophically about one single act.

Would you find more pride and fulfillment in someone who made a sandwich for you or someone who quit smoking for you?

Making a sandwich is rather easy. Doesnt really take any relative amount of suffering or challenge to complete the task for the Master.

Quitting smoking, however, takes weeks of suffering threw withdrawals, resisting cravings, and maintating a strong will. I know. I am still trying to get a permenant hold on my smoking.

What if it doesn't cause suffering? What if it ranks right up there with making him a tuna on rye?

I quit 6 years ago in August.

What if nothing is this big ta-doo? What then?

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Excuse me? I didn't create the scenarios prop did. She proposed them. I'll remove my what if. So He never asks anything of her that causes her to suffer or anything she finds a trial because she doesn't feel that they are. He doesn't hold back on what he asks of her but he doesn't go looking for things to purposely cause her to feel her life is trial and sacrifice. Is he to keep upping the ante to find something that causes her to feel her lot in life is such a trial..?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
You have asked questions, wanted to discussion that, and I find it rather poor that you are taking my personal little perspective on my own relationships as an insult to yours.

I've said "My opinions", "My views", "My philosophy", "My relationships", and "It boils down to individual philosophy" many many times.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


Well...then I suppose I will go threw life without fealing any additional value wont mind?

Still doenst necessarily mean that I have to have suffering or have to have difficulty to find appreciation and admiration in my what girl does for me.

Just because life doesnt present the oppurtunity where my slave can die for me in a beautiful glorious moment of self sacrifice that I wont be happy or fulfilled.

But sorry...perhaps my value judgements are flawed, but they still are my value judgements.

I've worked hard and gotten threw a lot in life to get to where I am now.

I value the promotions I have gotten threw my own hard work and merits far more than one that was given to me.

If I want something, I have to go out and earn it and suffer and sweat. The trials provide additional value to ME.

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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

What if nothing is a great trial though? Does he just keep upping the ante until he finds something? For what purpose..what if she seriously is absolutely obedient without being a sniveling brat about it?

if a particular slave is utterly incapable of finding any possible service difficult or trying, then i would say that particular slave is incapable of human emotion. with the exception of such rare people, there is without a doubt a task a Master may demand that the slave will difficult to bear. however, this does not equate to being a "sniveling brat" about it or, as you mention later, having a "sh*t fit." no matter what my Master demands of me, big or small, easy or difficult, i obey, without question, hesitation or complaint. this is how it has always been...that is just my nature, i obey. throwing a fit or whining about a task just wouldn't occur to me. however i still feel...some tasks are certainly more challenging than others, some require suffering, maybe a great deal of suffering...these things just don't effect my obedience. what they do effect is my mindset and growth as a slave.

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
You have asked questions, wanted to discussion that, and I find it rather poor that you are taking my personal little perspective on my own relationships as an insult to yours.

I've said "My opinions", "My views", "My philosophy", "My relationships", and "It boils down to individual philosophy" many many times.

I think you've been trying to do that, but your "sandwich vs smoking" were questions directed to "us" and thus suggested some value system you were comparing between you and "us."

Does a birth mother value her child more than an adopted child, even if there were no birthing pains?  Does a mother who had drugs to kill the pain value their child less than one who was very difficult to birth?

Not only do we get into an impossible place of "comparing pain" at that point, but I think we see that there really is no necessary correlation/causation between valuing someone and pain/sacrifice.

So, again, I understand you feel you need some level of pain/sacrifice in order to experience a certain sense of commitment in a relationship.  And I GET that- it's very true that one of the real tests of a relationship is your "first fight."  I'm certainly not DE-valuing pain/sacrifice. 

I'm simply saying that how we view pain/sacrifice, and what it brings to our lives is very different.  And many people would call one better than the other across the board.

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

OK so your owner has you do thing that make you suffer, they effect -your- mindset and growth as a slave, but they are not a requirement for slavery  or growth in an M/s dyanmic which is what you said earlier prop.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Excuse me? I didn't create the scenarios prop did. She proposed them. I'll remove my what if. So He never asks anything of her that causes her to suffer or anything she finds a trial because she doesn't feel that they are. He doesn't hold back on what he asks of her but he doesn't go looking for things to purposely cause her to feel her life is trial and sacrifice. Is he to keep upping the ante to find something that causes her to feel her lot in life is such a trial..?

The idea that any of the standards a Master presents wont provide some difficulty miight match up logically, but doesnt match up practically considering human beings have emotions.

You find me someone who has never had to go threw a single challenge threwout life and I will consider this argument valid.

Lets turn the tables...

How much value would you find in someone who ran away and quit at the smallest sign of hardship and difficulty in what a Master wanted?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Its not requirment for OTHER PEOPLE to have in their M/S dynamics. It has added value to people who DO value those things.

WE (or at least I) have NEVER said that EVERYONE should include this in my dynmaic or SHOULD value it.

YOU, however, seem to be constantly taking the attitude that because not EVERYONE (or at least YOU) dont value these things then WE should not include this in our dynamic simply because YOU dont understand the value in it.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


WE (or at least I) have NEVER said that EVERYONE should include this in my dynmaic or SHOULD value it.

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

She's actually getting clarification.  I've already shown how your statements seem to be muddled in exactly how much you're talking about your values vs comparing to others.  Questions like "What would you think of a slave who...?" is not at all "My opinion about my relationships is X" and certainly sounds like you're trying to compare values and show a commonality.

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I find it funny that you've made two posts of this nature to Chewsie considering how often you've done the same thing in other threads.

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
We are not talking about "any" service he could possibly or may ever demand, we are talking about things he has asked of her either in past or presently happening that she does not feel are a sacrifice or a trial for her.

OK so your owner has you do thing that make you suffer, they effect -your- mindset and growth as a slave, but they are not a requirement for slavery  or growth in an M/s dyanmic which is what you said earlier prop.

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ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I'm also free to think setting up shit to make your property view her lot in life with you as a trial by having her do things you would not have wanted done otherwise is silly but your mileage may vary.