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RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 11:32:01 AM

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quote:

But, it does crack me up to read or see the FEMDOM attitude of what a privilege it would be for me to take her trash cans to the curb. This is only exciting for a malesub b/c of the possibility of where it will lead (BDSM experiences.) Once into the relationship, its just putting out the trash. (Love, caring, or straight sense of duty and obligation.)

I think a lot of those "femdoms" who say things like that and carry that attitude are just women who are looking for someone to do their work for them....they wouldn't know anything about the lifestyle or owning slaves....I used to observe a board for "domestic servants", and you could tell the majority of the women weren't dominant; in fact most were college girls looking for people to write their papers for them (pretty pathetic if you ask me) And personally, I can't see how domestic service could be fulfilling, unless you are doing it for the One that you love.

(in reply to unforegvn)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 11:47:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
How many women define service as play in some form?

I suppose the women who are looking for exactly that, though I don't know any myself.

quote:

I mean I read a ton of requests to "serve," (my reaction..."yay Isomebody else can do the fucking cat liter now!") and it boils down to the petitioner's idea of service being buttfucked or "working hard" to keep their genital region in a "desireable" state.

I know this thread has gone on and on about how unreasonable it is to actually expect service, but I am with you on the fact that service means he does what I want/need him to do, when/how I need him to do it if he wants to serve me... The fact that he may get something in return for serving me is a consequence of being in a servile relationship with me, and I would expect that which I have to offer to be more than adequate inspiration for him.

I suppose the issue is that many folks are not really service inspired naturally, and basically they try to see what they can get with minimal effort on their part. I know for myself, there is a whole big vanilla world with men who want the minimum for the maximum sexual return, so am uninspired by bottoms who want to dominate me in the least. M

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RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 11:48:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
It just cracks me up that some view this power exchange as a vehicle to get a sub/slave to mow the lawn. To me that's low brow BDSM, and FEMDOMs shouldn't be suprised when malesubs prove uninspired by that dynamic.

If the femdom wants her sub to mow the lawn and he finds himself uninspired, then perhaps she needs to dig deeper to find out what will inspire him. Part of the thrill of asking someone to do something they find unpleasant, is the fact that they're doing it FOR YOU. It's not FOR them. And then she can appropriately reward him for the effort.

And another point I wanted to bring up is the fact that the femdom/malesub dynamic seems to have a lot of whiney malesubs complaining about service. Females are trained by society to provide service for men. Why do you think that secretaries and nurses are mostly shown as women? We're instructed to clean and cook for men. Even when both the man and the women in a household have jobs, it's usually the woman who gets to come home, take care of the kids, cook and clean after work. Sounds fun? No, I don't think so. There is a reason why they say that men are more happy and live longer when they're married, and women are happier and live longer when they're unmarried. So I say to the male subs - quit yer bitchin'. Mow her lawn for crissake, and if you don't want to, then bribe the neighbor kid to do it (brains over brawn, boys, I know you can do it). She will thank you for it. And if she doesn't, open up those lines of communication so perhaps next time she will.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 12:16:27 PM

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Okay so I've watched some replys to this and I guess it's my turn to reply to my own question as a servant.

And I guess that part of my identity is improtant. I am a sevrant. I serve. In any manner that she wants. Yes I will find somethings more pleasurable to mye than others. Do I look forward to taking the liter and trash out and doing the dishes after cooking? Not always. I'd really like a day that I could just eat dinner and relax and rub Her feet and not worry about the dishes. But it's my job. It's what I signed up for.

And the little shits who have an attitude about doing as their told, I think need a swift kick in the ass from someone who doesn't like them. It's not about you as an s-type. It's about Them. It's about making their lives easier. And you better believe it when someone says, I don't have a problem finding women interested in me as a servant....because I take it seriously.

If those who consider themselves "service" oriented aren't willing to take out the trash and can't figure out why no Domme out there wants anything to do with them after that then maybe they need to take a look at that.

I won't call myself a "submissive" because I won't be the one who stands up and says "no!" while I stamp my feet because we're not playign enough. I'm the one who says quietly "I really wish we can play soon. I'd appreciate my reward when You have it in You to give me." And I go right back to my work. That's what service is. That's what being a servant is about.

And that's my opinion for what it's worth. Like it or not take it or leave it...I don't care...cuz there's chores to be done and I really need to go do them now.

Later

(in reply to HelenaTroy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 1:18:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This last exchage is very interesting. I've often suggested to more than one service submissive that, while they conduct their search, they put in some volunteer time, so they might be of service to others while searching for the dynamic they might hope to have. The thing about it is, it doesn't have to be some sort of community service obligation or anything formal in anyway. What about things like random acts of kindness (to borrow the term)? I've found, over the years, I've observed that many service oriented people can get their "fix" from just doing spur of the moment things. Perhaps they don't see the "reward" portion of it, but still, it is an idea.

I have actually started doing a lot of volunteering because I do like to help people out. But it seems to come from a different place for me than "service" actually does. Right now, I work with foster children as a legal advocate, which I'm finding to be a wonderful way to assist those who are in need of the kind of assistance I can offer. But that wouldn't be the kind of "service" I'd be attracted to when it comes to serving a woman to whom I wish to dedicate myself. Granted, I'd serve in any way she desired, but the reason I chose to be an advocate for indigent children was because it was something I felt I could do well and help out those who went through what I went through as a child (but didn't have an advocate at the time). It may be hard to see, but in the end, I'm pursuing different goals. In the "service" aspect, my goal is to achieve a state of mind that results in a dichotomy with someone who appreciates me for being all that I can be for her. As a volunteer, my goal is to use every persuasive skill I have available to me to make ANY child better off and in better position to have a better life.

< Message edited by littlesarbonn -- 10/24/2007 1:21:20 PM >

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RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 2:56:40 PM

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I guess I don't understand how a sub/slave could say anything about anything. It is his position in life to do as he is told. No matter what it is. If he is told to wash the car, then he washes the car, mow the grass, then he mows the grass, kiss her feet, then he kisses her feet. "Service" is just that....service. A sub/slave would do whatever it takes to make his Mistress's life easier and more enjoyable. "She" decides what he does, when he does it, how he does it and if there are any rewards to be offered when it is done....I can't believe a sub/slave would put conditions on anything....especially service!
Or am I just all wet don't understand the concepts of what this community is all about? Just my thoughts..

(in reply to littlesarbonn)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 3:25:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flatworm00

I guess I don't understand how a sub/slave could say anything about anything. It is his position in life to do as he is told. No matter what it is. If he is told to wash the car, then he washes the car, mow the grass, then he mows the grass, kiss her feet, then he kisses her feet. "Service" is just that....service. A sub/slave would do whatever it takes to make his Mistress's life easier and more enjoyable. "She" decides what he does, when he does it, how he does it and if there are any rewards to be offered when it is done....I can't believe a sub/slave would put conditions on anything....especially service!
Or am I just all wet don't understand the concepts of what this community is all about? Just my thoughts..

I'm thinking you don't understand the concepts of what this community is all about. There are all types of submissives. Some do exactly what's told. Some do what they believe their dominant wants. Others need to be told what to do. Others need to be punished for not doing anything they were told to do, or everything they were told to do that they didn't do. Many others have all sorts of desires and needs that fill this huge vat of what we call a bdsm community. Some people just need a friend who says "I wish you would do this" and then that person might or might not do "this". Service means all sorts of things to all sorts of people. Even when you think you are on the same wavelength as other people, you may discover that you were both speaking different languages even though you both nodded and laughed when it seemed appropriate.

Life can be weird sometimes. For some it can be too long. For others, it might be too short.

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RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 4:15:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This last exchage is very interesting. I've often suggested to more than one service submissive that, while they conduct their search, they put in some volunteer time, so they might be of service to others while searching for the dynamic they might hope to have. The thing about it is, it doesn't have to be some sort of community service obligation or anything formal in anyway. What about things like random acts of kindness (to borrow the term)? I've found, over the years, I've observed that many service oriented people can get their "fix" from just doing spur of the moment things. Perhaps they don't see the "reward" portion of it, but still, it is an idea.

I've also known several folks who identified as service submissives or slaves who have told me that they really enjoy serving in what are non-BDSM ways. They would prefer to find a dominant frankly but when they can't their need and desire to serve was channeled into other areas.

I can sort of relate to that because much of the training I do in a BDSM context is similar to how I teach in the class room. Explain, example, practice, feedback, practice, feedback, etc. It's isn't the same feeling but it can scratch an itch as Akasha says.

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RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 4:20:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HelenaTroy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
It just cracks me up that some view this power exchange as a vehicle to get a sub/slave to mow the lawn. To me that's low brow BDSM, and FEMDOMs shouldn't be suprised when malesubs prove uninspired by that dynamic.

If the femdom wants her sub to mow the lawn and he finds himself uninspired, then perhaps she needs to dig deeper to find out what will inspire him. Part of the thrill of asking someone to do something they find unpleasant, is the fact that they're doing it FOR YOU. It's not FOR them. And then she can appropriately reward him for the effort.

This is part of what makes service in a Ds sense different from vanilla or paid service workers.

You have to give something and you should make that part of your negotiation. As the dominant you have to like up to your side of the dynamic or it won't work. For someone who is very service driven and likes to make others happy (like Fox) you still need to give back something and sometimes it's so easy you can forget -- like saying "thank you" or "good boy" or "nicely done".

Being recognized for good work makes us all happy so why would a sub or slave be any different?

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(in reply to HelenaTroy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 5:11:48 PM

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i think a male who is totally submissive is just the same as a slave or a servant. i truly dont see any difference, and to be honest if the Mistress i was with wanted to say i was one or the other, then so be it.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 6:51:30 PM

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quote:

HelenaTroy: women are happier and live longer when they're unmarried.

Sorry, that's WAY-FALSE.

See also: Can Marriage Help you live Longer.

Also, its not "service from the wife which makes my life easier" that adds to male longevity, its the emotional-structural connection to a beloved woman. This is primarily what men seek when they want a LTR to a woman.

Single men, though, have it particularly hard in life b/c they tend to be more alone and isolated, whereas single woman bond with other women. Also single men don't excel at taking care of themselves and live more recklessly.

Try to get the facts straight before you take a postion.

Its also noted that educated men in the USA take an active role in marriage and see it as a partnership. They don't sit around the house expecting "the wife" to take care of all the domestic duties.

quote:

flatworm00: I guess I don't understand how a sub/slave could say anything about anything. It is his position in life to do as he is told. No matter what it is. If he is told to wash the car, then he washes the car, mow the grass, then he mows the grass, kiss her feet, then he kisses her feet. "Service" is just that....service. A sub/slave would do whatever it takes to make his Mistress's life easier and more enjoyable. "She" decides what he does, when he does it, how he does it and if there are any rewards to be offered when it is done....I can't believe a sub/slave would put conditions on anything....especially service!
Or am I just all wet don't understand the concepts of what this community is all about? Just my thoughts..

Yes, but can that guy carry a conversation, make poignant comments about books and movies, and figure out the inventive ways to make a relationship rewarding? Unthinking obedience or programmed submission might make for a rather dull character. Although BDSM looks like a plug and play formula: COMMAND AND OBEY --- its actually more than that.

I also find it interesting how throughout this thread Femdoms are making the repeated connection between men balking at "service" but wanting sex. This still suggests a commodification of relationships. Its as if service is either a "proof of love" or "a screening test" for BDSM play. (A kind of relationship currency, if you will.)

The malesub's person and character seem lost here, except for maybe how he responds to the challenge of service. But what about more interpersonal challenges like "getting you," being creative, adding to your perspective on life, fun to share experiences with, etc. There is a whole other fertile ground of relationships that extend beyond the narrow confines of service.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/24/2007 7:12:04 PM >

(in reply to HelenaTroy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 9:53:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I think it's pretty telling that the respondents who understand share my opinion on the service issue are FEMALE.

Fixed!

It'd be better fixed if i could figure out how to do strikethrough text here, but i can live with that.

Just to clarify my position a little, since i'm apparently coming off a bit hostile- my wife and i have been living together since 1998. In that time, i'd say she's probably vacuumed the house four or five times, done one load of laundry that i can remember, cooked maybe once a month on average. Washed a spoon here or there when they were all dirty, i was in the garage doing something, and she wanted ice cream. Mowing the lawn, maintaining the vehicles, cleaning the cat boxes... never. She's "volunteered" me for everything from maintaining a website for a group she was involved in, to doing household repairs to her family, to diagnosing car problems for her co-workers. i make phone calls and talk to salespeople for her even though i have social anxiety disorder and it stresses the hell out of me; i go up on the roof to put up Christmas lights for her even though i find it terrifying. i consider making her life easier to be an essential part of my role in our household, even though i work the same number of hours and make more money.

BUT, if i were single and Random Internet Femdom that i had never met said "Oh, you're a service-oriented submissive? Super. Here's a list of chores to do, kthxbai", i'd be all, like "KTHXBAI" myself, just as i'd expect her to be all "Ha ha ha! *IGNORE*" if i wrote to her and said "Oh, hi, you're a Domme? You can tie me up if you like, i'm a sub!". Like i said, same fantasy world, but ships passing in the night, God(dess) having a cruel sense humor, etc.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 10:17:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
While I enjoy service and do see D/s value in it, I sometimes see service presented as a payment one must make to have a domme's attention. Over time I have seen different thoughts to drive such an expectation: a mechanism against feeling sexually used, a sub is thought to otherwise not bring enough to a relationship, more.

I still don't see how this is particular to femdom so I'm not truly understanding the complaints.

I made my post more to comment on an observation but you are correct that there is un underlying complaint.

My objection is that some dommes have an air as if the sub must pay for their time either with service or money. The air I sense is not in spirit of D/s but of a different flavor. This attitude suggests that a sub cannot contribute or provide for an interesting relationship or interaction unless he pays in some form, or that the time of the domme is automatically more valuable simply by virtue of the role, with each of which I disagree.

Here is another way to say it:

Person A says to person B that if person B wants the time and attention of person A, person B must do ___ otherwise person A has no interest in person B.

Man says to woman that if woman wants the time and attention of man, woman must give man blowjob otherwise he has no interest in her. Possible BDSM response aside, the woman would be put off because such a statement undermines what she is beyond giving a blowjob. What would you say about the position the man in this example takes?

Domme says to sub that if sub wants the time and attention of domme, sub must do her menials tasks (not for sake of D/s but to pay her for her time) otherwise she has no interest in sub. I think some subs feel similarly put off. What would you say about the position the domme in this example takes?

The questions are rhetorical and asked to invite thought towards a point I try to make--I do not necessarily direct them at you ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/24/2007 10:32:01 PM >

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 10:31:58 PM

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With all due respect Cloudboy, my statement was not false. There are numerous claims made to state that unmarried women live longer.

Here's an article covering a study done by two Australian Universities:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/01/09/1105205981068.html
Quoted:
If women are looking for the key to long-lasting health, they should consider getting rid of their man. That is one finding of research by two Queensland universities that reveals that divorced, widowed and single women in older age appear to be healthier than their married counterparts. A man's health, however, appears to be unaffected by his marital status.

And some truly interesting points made in this book called Gender: A Sociological Reader http://books.google.com/books?id=gmGy7VzNCKAC&pg=RA3-PA230&lpg=RA3-PA230&dq=unmarried+women+live+longer&source=web&ots=nB1RDm4jlX&sig=Qg4hs4kGMKQMqDkpLgeIE6xjh9U#PRA3-PA230,M1

Being a somewhat subjective thing to study, I'm sure there are studies corroborating both sides of the story. But this is the argument that I've always heard. I do try to get the facts before taking a position.

Helena

< Message edited by HelenaTroy -- 10/24/2007 10:54:02 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 11:19:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HelenaTroy
There are numerous claims made to state that unmarried women live longer.

It is my theory that if you examine all scenarios where women live longer you will find that the such women regularly obtain footrubs. I am certain that whoever conducted these studies did not bother to check for this variable. Therefore, I must do what has to be done for the sake of science and conduct my own study to prove my hypothesis. I will need a study sample of oh about a 100 women to whom I will give a footrub once a week. And I will need another sample of a 100 women to whom I will give a footrub once every two weeks.

;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/24/2007 11:51:50 PM >

(in reply to HelenaTroy)

RE: "service" - 10/24/2007 11:22:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I think it's pretty telling that the respondents who understand the service issue are FEMALE.

I do not agree with your statement that those who have a different take on service do not get it.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: "service" - 10/25/2007 2:13:45 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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Is there a category for footrubs twice a week? If so, sign me up for that one.

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RE: "service" - 10/25/2007 2:32:34 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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I've noticed a lot of the subs complaining that service, for the sake of service alone seems like bartering. I actually agree - it does.

To me however, and I'm sure other ladies will agree, service is a 'part' of the relationship, not the relationship in of itself (maybe for some it is). I don't want some random stranger washing my dishes. I don't. I want someone who I have a connection with mentally, emotionally, and physically washing my dishes. I want to know that when I ask him to weed my garden he is doing it because he wants to make MY life better, not some random stranger.

For me, there must be some connection in addition to the services provided, otherwise I'm not really interested in those services. I could easily pay a stranger to provide them if that's what I wanted. That's not what I want. I want to know that, even if the task is one that is not pleasant for the sub/slave, they are happy to do it for Me because they enjoy making Me happy. With that comes my desire to make them happy too.

Service to me is all the ways a boy pleases me, whether it's boring mundane activities, footrubs, or whatever else I request of him. If he is pleasing me, making my life easier, I'm much more likely to want to see him happy too, and reward him for good service. I'm not going to reward a stranger for doing something for me other than perhaps a thank you, or payment if it is someone I've hired. Additionally, the service isn't a 'bribe' or a 'barter', it's just part of life...things that need to be done. I don't expect a stranger to want to mow my lawn anymore than I'd want a stranger to do it - what if the stranger screws up and mows my blackberries down?

I expect service from a sub/slave. I also expect to do things to/with a sub/slave that I wouldn't do to/with a stranger. However, if said sub/slave were to become ill, I'm not going to drop them because they cannot provide the service. I am going to tend to them, make sure they are well, and get this...serve them...until they are. Without the connection, I have absolutely no interest in the service nor the play.

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RE: "service" - 10/25/2007 4:05:41 AM

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This topic almost needs to be divided into two - one covering service in a budding relationship, the other regarding service in an ongoing relationship. The two are quite different, and the focus of the individuals is also different.

Starting out a relationship is hard, whether it be a d/s, maledom/femsub, femdom/malesub, poodle/chihuahua, or sea/ every woman's foot in the world. A relationship requires the investment of time and energy by both parties, and also a healthy dose of trust and respect. It's also something that needs to be 50-50. Yes, I know, "but it's D/s! It's all about the needs of the dom! Screw the submissive's needs" - that's crap. I have yet to meet a person who didn't have the same basic human needs as everyone else. In bdsm we just add a few more to the mix. But we inherently want the same thing. We want participation, feedback, communication, etc. It's not a static thing (hopefully). As someone who is identifies theirself as a submissive, I have no desire to mow someones lawn and then be dismissed with a flick of the hand, as if performing that function should 'be more than enough reward for serving a dom'. Notice I didn't use gender there. Service, or to serve, is about the desire and pleasure one derives from helping and pleasing others. For some it can be a career (waiters for example), for others the reward is less financial and more emotional and/or spiritual. But in any example, a person can only give so much before they have nothing left to give because there was not anything returned. As cloudboy (and others pointed out) I already have a dearth of responsibilities at home, so unless I'm some weird person who has a fetish for mowing lawns (and all my neighbors have restraining orders against me for mowing their lawns to satisfy my mowing fetish), I'm not going to run out and beg to mow some dom's lawn as a way of proving to them I really AM a service submissive! However, I do think it is appropriate to earn the favor of the dom, and so long as their requests are fair and reasonable, and the dom makes the effort to invest their own time and interest in getting to know you as well, then I really do believe that it can be a good place to start. Posting an ad on the internet saying you want to 'serve' someone by sexually pleasing them does not really, IMHO, fall within the domains of service.

The other type of service, where you have already established a relationship, is going to be quite different than the former. This is because you've already gotten past the initial stage of getting to know one another, establishing the baseline or foundation of your relationship, and you are now spending time together because you mutually find something beneficial and rewarding. I tend to think that at this point serving someone becomes easier because there isn't that added pressure of having to prove yourself to them, and also the dom has made the effort to prove theirself to you. It's still a give and take relationship, with the idea that there still must be a flow back and forth between dom and sub. Of course, if you aren't doing this for money, you need some form of 'payment' for your services and time. As much as the fantasy goes, the flick of the hand is still not enough reward. A service submissive still needs something back or else eventually they too will get tired and drained of the 'relationship' and ultimately leave.

I like to think that the majority of dom's out there don't want a mindless automaton wandering around their person doing chores. If so, then they should not portray the relationship as anything other than use - "I am looking for someone to use. You will receive no reward, attention, or emotions from me. Come mow my yard, wash my car and then leave. I do not want to see or interact with you". I seriously doubt that type of ad looking for a person to serve the dom would get much quality responses. Of course it will get some, all ad's do, but the responder is probably not going to be a keeper.

Dom's complain about subs, subs complain about doms. We are all people, we share the same stereotypes, the same everything. It's finding the match that works for YOU that is hard. And it all comes back to the beginning - talking, communication, honesty, and no obfuscation about what your needs and desires truly are. If you have a fetish for mowing lawns and eating grass, then be honest about that. Don't ask to be a sissymaid in the hope that you will be granted the pleasure of mowing the lawn at some point. It's okay to let your interests and desires unfold as time goes by, but in the beginning you need to let the other person know what you hope to get out of the relationship, and what you need in return.

Ta-ta

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

RE: "service" - 10/25/2007 7:37:03 AM

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HelenaTroy

There are numerous claims made to state that unmarried women live longer.

Here's an article covering a study done by two Australian Universities:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/01/09/1105205981068.html
Quoted:
If women are looking for the key to long-lasting health, they should consider getting rid of their man. That is one finding of research by two Queensland universities that reveals that divorced, widowed and single women in older age appear to be healthier than their married counterparts. A man's health, however, appears to be unaffected by his marital status.

And some truly interesting points made in this book called Gender: A Sociological Reader http://books.google.com/books?id=gmGy7
VzNCKAC&pg=RA3-PA230&lpg=RA3-PA230&dq=unmarried+women+live+longer&source=web&ots=nB1RDm4jlX&sig=
Qg4hs4kGMKQMqDkpLgeIE6xjh9U#PRA3-PA230,M1

Being a somewhat subjective thing to study, I'm sure there are studies corroborating both sides of the story. But this is the argument that I've always heard. I do try to get the facts before taking a position.

Helena

I would just respectfully point out that your first link concerns elderly women in Australia, and it has a geriatric focus (widows, divorcees, always unmarried etc. in their later years +60.) Not once in the article is it stated that unmarried women outlive married ones. The second link also never says that unmarried women live longer than married ones. It only states that the difference in lifespan between married and umarried women is less pronounced than it is for married and unmarried men.

The second link was orginally published in 1984 in England, and it is over 23 years old. Its findings are quite dated.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/25/2007 8:13:42 AM >

(in reply to HelenaTroy)

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