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RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 10:52:05 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Chick was a manners nerd.  Nothing wrong with that; mothers like her have babies that become Quentin Tarentino or the HotForWords girl--e.i., total nerds that are fun to watch in action and make ridiculous amounts of money because of it.

I'd like to follow miss manners around with a camera, seriously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

There used to be a domme at b.com who called herself a trainer. When asked what she taught, basically it came down to manners. Seriously she chose people who didn't have decent table manners or conversational skills and taught them to behave in company.

What's always bothered me about that is how bad her self esteem had to be, that she sought out people she could feel superior to, and that the only skill she thought ever made her superior was having read an etiquette book. That bothered me, a lot.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 11:11:16 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

When someone mentions they are a "trainer" ask for whom.  Seriously.  Who specifically are you training for, do you want to be trained for that person?  As a trainer, who trains people for you?  If nobody does, why not, are you not good enough?



Alternatively, you could channel your energy into more productive means.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 11:14:32 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

When I am discussing training as it apples to submissives and learning what it means or feels like.or to have certain things done to them, thats a bit different. As some would say, thats not training at all, its just having it done. I really will not argue that this isnt the case. All that is really being done is allowing them to experience something that is done to them, usually because they have heard of it, or seen it, or watched it in a movie or something and the idea excited them.



Learning a skill... Trained to do a skill is entirely different than learning what something feels like.  Doing X so someone can learn what X feels like is not training.   Yup... Person A wants to learn what a cane feels like.... so... person B is more than happy to obilge with a swat of the cane.  Oh but person B says... you really can't appreciate what it feels like with one swat.... I shall give 100 swats... and then you be trained to receive a caning.  So the traing session goes... but well unfortunately person A was only able to receive 35 swats.  Person B... being the capable trainer that they are explains to person A... I need to train you carefully and not over extend you... so... it will have to be several sessions of training and when I am done you will be trained to receive a caning and no what it feels like!

I can appreciate and have done it before.... a person likes to know what a given toy etc may feel like.  a swat or two is more than enough ... this is not training!  sampling might be a better word... or teasing.  I have never used the word train so that a person could learn what something feels like.... it defies the truth of what has occurred. 


quote:


Or as I have always used the word, train you in how it feels.


frankly... I find your use of the word to be silly and it reflects very poor of you in my opinion.


quote:


I think the main problem some people have is with the way the word train or training is used here. If some other word makes more sense to you, use it instead. Its just a word and is being used to state an idea. The word train is not something set in stone that can only mean one very specific thing. In this case, it means to show someone how something feels, or to teach them how to do the action that makes someone have those feelings. In both cases something is learned. So say if the word learning is better to you than training, use that word. I have simply gone with training over the years.


yes words  matter.. they communicate a message.  Using words improperly will cause the message and the learning to be less not more.  But some love to use give words not for the purpose to communicate an effective understanding ... but to uplift their status and ego.... for me... how a person uses the word "Train" or "Training" also speaks to the person's Integrity!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 11:33:06 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

CreativeDominant

Lol...I will make this one point. You seem pertty obsessed with sex. Everything anyone does, that is not with your way of thinking must be leading to them having sex. Cute.


Nice try, Vran , to obfuscate with the smoke and mirror tactic of attacking my thought process.  You were the one who acknowledged that much of what we do in BDSM is sexual.  That was not MY statement, I just acknowledged it also.  I perhaps am more honest about it and don't care to use semantics to obscure it.  Nor am I so vain to think that because I say that I don't think a certain way, then I am the one who is right.  Such as your statement that since you do not see it as sexual, it isn't.

quote:

Anyway, you have your opinion, as long winded as it was I do not see a need to copy it all again. You obviously believe anyone who is a trainer or calls themselves one, no matter what is an HNG. Good for you.


Actually, that isn't what I said either.  I gave you the opportunity to prove yourself different from the examples I cited and I also was the one who gave you some differentiation because you are at least honest about the fact that if sexual attraction comes into play, you will act on it.  However, like the HNG trainers you claim not to be a part of, you also note in your first post that you are not their dominant nor will become their dominant.  One thing along that line that you have not addressed:  with your vast experience as a trainer, how DO you handle it when a submissive that you are also engaging in sexual play with reaches...due to that interaction of pain and pleasure and sexual play...that level where she feels submissive to YOU specifically and feels that her body and mind is YOURS to do with as you wish?
I find it ironic that you are doing the same thing that you accuse Michael of doing...taking MY words and twisting them to fit your view.

quote:

I freely admit I am a human being. And yeah, anytime two people get together, there is a chance they might like each other and do more than just have a training session. But then, that applies, at the office, or anywhere that two people interact. If a really lovely attractive person, that you were showing something to, suddenly came on to you, perhaps because of some moral sense you would turn her down. I might also, depending on a number of factors, but if there was no reason not to do more, who would not be willing under the right circumstances?


And you do not consider the fact that you hold yourself out as a trainer of D/s and BDSM techniques and not of sex play to be a reason?  If you see the fact that you are the "Mentor/Trainer" of a student to not be an impediment to acting on your desires or hers and bringing an element in that doesn't fit into any "Teacher/Student" dynamic but does fit into the casual play dynamic, then again I ask the question...what differentiates you from the other trainers out there who do the same thing?  And I mean something other than the fact that you are totally honest about it with them.
quote:



I can definately say that there have been a number of trainees, that I did not have sex with. Sex of the definition of some form of intercourse, oral or otherwise.


Ahhhhhhh....qualifying what you see as sex.  We all do it...I do it.  But I also take into account what others see as sexual acts when I take my own thoughts on the matter into account.  Sorry but go to any reference source on sexuality and you will find that "having sex" is NOT just some form of intercourse whether it be oral, vaginal or anal.  The fact that I...and others...see many other things as sexual that you...apparently...do not does not make me or them obsessed with "having sex".  It does make me intellectually capable of recognizing the many subtle layers of sexual interaction.  You can state that, for you, the only form of having sex is those things but I would be willing to bet that in your private world, you really don't.

quote:

I can also say that over the years, I have had had sex with some of the ones I have shown things to. Does this make me a bad person? I wouldnt think so. You probably do. But thats your problem. Not mine.


Again, I never said that having sex with your trainees made you a bad person.  I said that it then lumps you into the same group as any other trainer except for one fact...you are honest with the potential trainees (I am presuming you are, anyway, from your words...perhaps you are not and prefer to let them just think it is "nature taking its course") about what may happen.  And actually, none of this is my problem except at that level of my spirit where I despair of those folks who think there is a world of difference between themselves and those they despise for doing the same thing...at that level of my spirit that shakes my head over those submissives who think you are different because you are just so honest.

quote:

Hope you have a wonderful day lol.
I know I will.

MV


Oh...I will have a wonderful day.  I've stated what I am and I have answered those points directed at me.  I haven't made this personal nor have I let it affect me in a personal manner.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 4/18/2008 11:58:02 AM >

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 11:46:30 AM   
Kirren


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren


I think that if you have some knowledge and experience that you can share, then you should, by all means share that and help others move forward, but you should also be sure that you tell them the pros and cons of what they are doing and how to do it safely. The first domme I spoke of went to a training session to learn to flog properly, and areas NOT to flog, then went into a session and immediately did what she was told NOT to do.  Had it been left to Me, I would have flogged her until she bled, but I chose to cut ties and walk away warning people I knew had been in contact with her, so that I knew I had at least helped save some ones skin.



Just going to make a quick point here. What the Domme in this did, was go to a showing session. Which can be helpful. A training session would involve the Domme doing it herself. Being watched, told what to do and what she did wrong. My only other comment would be if you saw her then go into a session with someone else and do it all wrong, why you did not at least attempt to advise her on her mistakes. Perhaps you didnt know her well enough or something? We all make mistakes when we first attempt things. Seeing someone make mistakes, not attempting to correct them, and then black listing them because of the mistakes, just on the surface seems wrong. I would have at least made an attempt to help her do it better. Now if she told me to FO...well then she is on her own and I would probably warn people she was new and making mistakes.

Just my way of doing things.

Added later...Oh and as another thought, if this was a club or BDSM group function, dont you have DMs or someone you could have mentioned this too? Perhaps if you did not want to become involved one of them could have?

MV 



Locally we do not have Clubs, but this was at her residence and she asked Me in as a second, to some what over see. I did in fact correct her and was in fact told to FO, as you so neatly put it, and I in turn told her to cram it side ways up her rectum until she could taste it, and walked out.



_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name


Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:00:20 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline 		Ok...lets lay...(grin)...this out simply. Sex is not something I am trying to achieve if I am training. If what is being done is or should obviously be expected to lead the one experiencing it to a sexual orgasm, then thats what was expected, and they were told that was the most likely result. It can be argued and you are, that this means I was having sex with the person. Ok. Since they orgasmed this is a valid way to look at it. My stating that without some form of oral, or vaginal or anal penetration by me, meant to me that I wasnt having sex with them, is also valid in that I am not orgasming.

Now with that said, I have trained with the express belief that sex was the main ingrediant and a good time was going to be had by all. However, there was no doubt in anyones mind where it was heading.

The thing you and Michael keep implying, which is misleading, is the assumption that this is always leading to sex and that is where it was intended to go. Michael has stated so explicitely. If I flog someone, and do it correctly for them, they may very well have an endorphin rush, and orgasm. I consider that great, but really dont see it as me and them having sex. You can put it on those terms if you want to. And since one of us orgasmed, it certainly can be seen that way. But there is a total lack of intimacy normally associated with sex.

So argue it anyway you like, but this is how I explain it to people, this is how I have done it and will continue to do it, and your opinion while valid for you and others, is not for me nor the people who see things as I do. We can just happily agree to disagree. or at least I will lol.

On a side note, if your were monogamous and went home to your wife after flogging someone who had orgasmed during the session, would you rush in and tell your wife you had just had sex with a girl? Would you really see it as you had sex with her and had broken your wedding vows? Or would it be a simple flogging that had a happy ending.

You know which way I would see it.

MV

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:03:54 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

I think the main problem some people have is with the way the word train or training is used here. If some other word makes more sense to you, use it instead. MV


When you describe what it is that you do, I do have another word for it. Two actually - Service Top.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:04:45 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Kirren

Locally we do not have Clubs, but this was at her residence and she asked Me in as a second, to some what over see. I did in fact correct her and was in fact told to FO, as you so neatly put it, and I in turn told her to cram it side ways up her rectum until she could taste it, and walked out.




Lol....under those circumstances, then, excellent job. All we can do is try to do the right thing. Some people simply wont listen. For what its worth, I feel you did the right thing.

So what happened to the one who was teaching her how to do it? Or was it a video or something? Just curious.

MV

(in reply to Kirren)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:05:22 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Okay, I swore I would not come back to this, but this is bugging me.  When you're flogging her, whether it leads to sex or not, what exactly are you training her to do?  You're not training her to flog someone.  I'm just soooo not getting it.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:09:11 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		MastrVran, as you said, flogging is an intimate experience. So if you were going to take it upon youself to train Newbie Nancy, you would automatically flog her as part of your training? I bet you would also help her stay warm and safe as aftercare. Maybe even whisper a few words in her ear about how much you are looking out for her as she recovered. You don't see this as creating a bonding experience with Newbie that goes far beyond what was envisioned by her?

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:09:15 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

I think the main problem some people have is with the way the word train or training is used here. If some other word makes more sense to you, use it instead. MV


When you describe what it is that you do, I do have another word for it. Two actually - Service Top.

Celeste


That works too. My idea is so long as they are learning something that will or may lead them further into this. Its a good thing.

I have just been called a trainer for a good while, and it sort of stuck. So showing someone like this is definately a Top behavior rather than a Master or Dom behavior and your term works fine.

MV

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:09:37 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		to: Cali
To learn where your pain thresh hold is about. What it feels like with that particular brand of leather/flogger. To see if its something you enjoy or dont enjoy. How to accept not every thing in the lifestyle is going to be something you like or dislike. How to take punishment with out being whiney or in a negative way.

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:11:32 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Cali, you actually beat me to it, but I posted before seeing your post. That flogging her to train her got to me too.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:12:32 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool
to: Cali
To learn where your pain thresh hold is about. What it feels like with that particular brand of leather/flogger. To see if its something you enjoy or dont enjoy. How to accept not every thing in the lifestyle is going to be something you like or dislike. How to take punishment with out being whiney or in a negative way.


Oh I see.  I don't call that "training", because there is no skill or knowledge given from one person to another.  I call that "experimentation", "sexual experimentation" or just plain old "fooling around".

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:15:52 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		True it can be called alot of things but for him he calls it training.

I can see how it can be training in a way. If your helping someone push their pain threshold to be able to take more. Are you not in a little bit training them to do so. Couldnt you equate it to teaching someone how to type or use an adding machine they have not used before. In the work field it be considered training to teach someone to use a computer program better. Some can see it as training to take pain.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:16:11 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

MastrVran, as you said, flogging is an intimate experience. So if you were going to take it upon youself to train Newbie Nancy, you would automatically flog her as part of your training? I bet you would also help her stay warm and safe as aftercare. Maybe even whisper a few words in her ear about how much you are looking out for her as she recovered. You don't see this as creating a bonding experience with Newbie that goes far beyond what was envisioned by her?


I dont automatically add in anything, and prior to doing so would tell newbie Nancy what would most likely happen if she liked it. And also cover the end results, including the potential aftercare needed or probably wanted. Whether I was the one giving that would depend on who she had with her, if she was alone, or other potential things.

So you are saying its impossible to flog someone without them falling in love with you and having to have some super intense relationship with you afterwards? Or just that since its possible, I should never flog anyone unless I will accept them as my full and collared slave and am willing to own them forever?

I have done this for years and never had anyone fall head over heals for me because they orgasmed from one, or because it felt good, or because afterwards, they were wrapped in a blanket, kept warm, and talked to, till they fully recovered. maybe I am doing this all wrong?

MV

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:16:41 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I'm still waiting to hear what happens after the "training"

Dunno about you,but more than one wanted to come home with me after playing like that at a club. That's why I stopped doing it-not fair to us.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:18:07 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

to: Cali
To learn where your pain thresh hold is about. What it feels like with that particular brand of leather/flogger. To see if its something you enjoy or dont enjoy. How to accept not every thing in the lifestyle is going to be something you like or dislike. How to take punishment with out being whiney or in a negative way.


Why in the world would anyone but your Dom need to know what your pain threshold is? Why would anyone else need to know what kind of flogger worked best on you, but your Dom? Is the trainer going to write a report for you to give to whoever becomes your Dom?  Maybe the eventual Dom won’t even want to flog you? Maybe he will be ticked if someone else played with you? There are so many negative possibilities here. See what we are trying to say?

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 4/18/2008 12:19:51 PM >

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:21:22 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Well he can call it bippity boo bah if he wants.  Teaching someone how to accept more pain is not flogging them.  It would be more along the lines of teaching them how YOU process pain, what you think, what you feel, imparting YOUR knowledge.  You don't teach me how to set broken bones by breaking my leg and setting it.  You don't teach me how to sew by making something yourself and putting it on me. 

I think I need training in how to have bigger, better orgasms.  So I'm need to go to someone special, a trainer, and have them go downtown for hours, so they can help me in my quest for knowledge, help me push my orgasm threshhold further. (If you don't see the irony in that... you would be asking another WOMAN how she has longer/better/stronger orgasms, since she is the one actually experiencing them).

Not bitching at you, hopeless, I'm just a bitchin.'

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Official Training Standards - 4/18/2008 12:22:11 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I understand it fully but If I know where my pain thresh hold is. I learned it from a past experience. Im going to be able to find myself an owner, who knows about what I can take. Im not going to get involved with a sadist if I cant take pain am I? But Im not going to know how much pain I can take untill I try it. Im sure as hell not going to invest several months into a person only to find out I wont fulfill him because I didnt know my self well enough. In knowing myself. I can better explain to my partner my experiences as well as what i think I can handle so he can better see where he wants to push to have me as His.

If an eventual dom gets pissed off I didnt come to him as a blushing virgin and actually tried and experienced things the life has to offer he can just get pissy over it. It be like saying to a girl who you knew had sexual relationships before you. Im mad because your not a virgin.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 100
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