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RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/23/2007 8:59:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveofKaos

I would like to thank everyone for there constructive comments with a special thank you to Stephann, TankII7871, and Redoubt. Master and I have been going over the thread reading all comments, and there has been some really helpful information. We are communicating a lot more and a lot better than we use to though we still get stuck once in a while and it helps a lot to hear what others have to say. Thanks again everyone.

yup... there was some pretty good stuff here....

But.. often times... people look for what they want to hear... and what they need is what they don't want to hear.

This problem is indicitive to seeing the same plot played out with only a bit of changes to the wording.

I don't wish anyone ill well.. but I am not going to bet against the house either.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to slaveofKaos)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/23/2007 9:29:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Great point, Stephan.

It's way too easy for people to forget that they are not supposed to be working against each other. Walking the path to perfection together is a lot easier if one views it as a team effort to reach a specific destination, rather than just two travellers who happen to be headed in the same general direction. Especially when one is, as you said, spoiled.

I have this fantasy about making my way across the Hardanger plains to the other side of my country.

The harsh reality, however, is that it is a 250 mile trek over mountainous terrain in harsh wind, up to several meters of snow with little warning, and a limited number of places to spend the night. Further, that cold messes up my lungs, that my respiratory volume will need time to recover from bronchitis, and that I have neither the skills, nor the physical prowess to pull it off at the moment.

If I want to live that fantasy, to turn it into reality, I will have to study, train and work hard for it.

The OP and his Jodi both have a fantasy in mind, but I see several obstacles to making it a reality. Like you, Stephan, I'm thinking the OP may well be planning on going about this by studying, training and working hard. However, there is a time and a place for this bit, and it may not be after starting the trek, especially when there's such a long way to go.

Some things, like the thread on the lost text message, indicates that this is more than just a "failure to communicate." It seems like it is a case of the M-type lacking the structured problem-solving capacity required to pull this off in the way that "speaks to him". That means doing it in a different way, or with a lot of outside help, is called for.

And it may not be enough.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Evening al-Aswad,

Ironic you should meantion health; I just recovered today from a nasty virus.

I completly understand your position. However, I don't find the suggestion feasible. Unlike the mountain trek, where it is literally 'do or die' and the success or failure is measured by your survival (or lack thereof), a relationship's success is not measured by it's length or even it's strength, but the value assigned to it during and after the folks involved.

It's entirely possible, that this is not a salvagable relationship. It's also entirely possible, that things aren't as bad as we imagine them to be; after all, we might only be hearing the downsides, and when it's good...it's really good. That both of them seem willing and even eager to continue improving what they have, suggests that the relationship still has intrinsic value, even if only for the learning experience.

And should they part ways tomorrow, it'd be no short time until they have both found new partners and would be right back at it.

I agree. There's serious communication gaps. Continuing to talk about it, even in this public forum, is a good start towards bridging those gaps. ANYTHING to put words out, about "how I feel" is better than saying nothing. No communication, in three days of living together, means no relationship.

MadRabbit,

My intention wasn't to criticize too many people here. I do that enough on my own time, in other places. Frankly, AKA has never offended me, so I see no reason not to try and be helpful. If you don't think he's worth the effort; well, let him go the way DaughterSlave has for me.

Having said that, the questions he posed, even if you don't think the answers he receives will be of value to him, will also have value to others. A quick skim of the responses to my scenario show some people who did react. Imagine the other, perhaps less experienced dominants, who might have learned something from it?

I don't usually post with the OP in mind strictly, but rather with an eye towards solving the situation, for myself. "How would/have I solve this problem?" Or in offering advice to anyone else who might be in this spot.

Just launching one attack after another on someone who, distasteful or not, seems genuine in trying to learn, seems like a destructive act. Launching attacks on intruders or folks who show their ass.... well, in the Marines we called that "Target Practice."

LCpl Budge

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/23/2007 11:17:38 PM

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The title of the thread, "Resentment while obeying", reminds me of one of my earlier slaves. She hated being a slave with a fiery passion. She just also needed it and couldn't resist.

I ended up releasing her. One of the most conflicted individuals I've ever known.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/23/2007 11:58:59 PM

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I have read a couple of the first few replies to your query, and having no previous encounter with you on the forums will offer you this to mull over (given I did not read the entire 4 pages of replies, it may have already come up, but oh well).

At what point did you forget that your submissive/slave/whatever title you need to supply for your relationship partner, is a person? I have encountered in previous relationships and in many discussions here on the forums this most fundamental forgetfulness over and over.

A woman can be profoundly submissive, can desire to please you and serve you and still not find every little (or big) thing you require or desire of her to be completely blissful, joy inspiring or even at all pleasant.

You are harping on the fact that she was resentful. How about looking at the fact that though, for what ever reason, she found it distasteful or personally unpleasant, she complied with your wishes and submitted.

Sometimes, we human submissive types do things we do not like or want to do for our dominants and sometimes, that bald submission is in and of itself is all we can manage that is pleasing...just submission, just compliance...

Sometimes, we human submissive types, absolutely detest, do not understand, and dread some of the things our dominants ask of us.

Sometimes, we even fail to comply with demands and wishes placed upon us by our dominants.

That does not make our submission less real, less worthwhile or less committed.

It just goes to show you that you are working with an actual person in this relationship, not an automated sex doll that only has one programmed response... a mechanical smile and a "Yes, Master!"

Remember that she is a person and be proud of the fact that even though she obviously, and for what ever reason or myriad of reasons which can range from the simple to the long-standing and complex, she obeyed your orders...it may not have been as effortless and graceful as you would have liked, but she obeyed you. Your (and I would argue any) submissive, from time to time may not, and I would also argue, can not possibly love every little thing you command and desire of her. Though she may love serving and pleasing you, she may actually quite adamantly dislike some of the things you ask/require her to submit to.

If you really want to get to the root of the resentment...talk to her and be prepared to put in a bit of work (and in my opinion, work you as a dominant should fundamentally love) getting to better know your submissive, what makes her tick, and what it is that is making her not tick quite so loudly as she obeys you despite her own displeasure.

Remember, being a dominant is far more intricate than barking out orders and having your life greatly eased by the labors of another who is devoted to you....that would just make you a lazy bastard...well perhaps a lucky lazy bastard. Being a dominant means you actively (not passively) take control of the situation and the woman you have chosen to be in and be with. If you can not handle that, you will probably find it more rewarding to pay some chick for easy pleasure without complication or lack of customer satisfaction.

Take some time to think about this.

Jen

< Message edited by puella -- 8/24/2007 12:11:10 AM >

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(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 12:07:18 AM

FelinePersuasion

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the title grabbed my aTtention, however it's bloody cold andi am going inside, which means loss of net connection will read tomorow.

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RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 12:17:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Redoubt
If you can't answer "What does my slave expect from me?" in terms of your role in her life, you need STOP and go ask her ... and don't think for a moment she can provide you with a simple answer, drill it down until you fully understand her conscious and unconscious needs, wants and desires... and probe back with questions and scenarios to indicate your understanding of what she is telling you. If you want to make it all domly, you can have her start a journal with the first entry... "Today I become a slave and I pray that my new master will..." and require 500, 1000, or 2000 word essay. Personally, Writers Cramp (give) is not on my kink list, so I prefer a chat.

Hope that gives you something to work with

I am trying reeeeeally hard to get this information from her, and I find it encouraging that it makes sense to you as well. That idea for an essay might be easier than the ideas I've come up with. "Write a wish list" "State your needs as a slave, and write them out". I've gone over this plenty, and I tend to come to the boards after I've talked to her. Once she gets frustrated enough, it's fruitless trying to talk until later so I come here. Often it proves to be pointless, but I like to write what's on my mind just to sort things out for myself. If a helpful soul comes along, great. Lately, I'm the favorite whipping boy/dog to kick. It's nice to see a maverik like you from time to time.

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(in reply to Redoubt)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 1:05:21 AM

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Four pages of posts... whew! Lots of good stuff too. Just a thought. If You truly wish to become her "Master" You need to come to the realization that it means You Own ALL of her. her body, her heart, her thoughts, her health, her emotions, her spirit, her words, and her resentment. If You OWN it you are responsible for it. Her job is to surrender it up to You, to be open, to state it as clearly as she can. She also has the duty to work with You on it, as You need her to.

       It's not some sort of linear development either.   -- IE. bottom to submissive to slave. -- Not all who bottom are submissive. Some of the best slaves are "contractually" submitting in a relationship but are quite Dominant outside of it. Some deep submissives can't make good slaves because they can't state their needs clearly, or find a confidence in who they are, or find any real joy in service, but are psychologically resigned to obey anyway -- and not happily. Some just want to be "sex slaves".
      Same sort of thing with Dominants. Some may be quite domineering, yet get nothing but resentment. Some may not have the inter-personal skills to "master" anyone. Some Dominants may be so lacking confidence, that they find no joy in taking charge and being responsible for another human being.

    That's just a few examples. Sorry, I can't make it any easier for You.
Keep at it. Like others have said elsewhere .... It's a journey, not a destination.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 3:14:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
well.. you have to just ignore the passive aggressive behavior... you just have to love... how someone tries to take the high road by stepping on those on the low road to get there.

personally... I prefer the approach of Redoubt.. when he said the following.
"I appreciate that you are taking some flak from some of the board regulars, but there is a message they're trying to get across and you're not addressing that message... so most of them are either washing their hands of you, or just see you as a joke (I know... thanks for the recap, Red)."

No passive aggressive BS...... the man kept to his road.. and appreciate the value of others choosing their own road.

Interesting don't you think.. in essense... both Stephen and Redoubt putting out olive branch to umm... oh yeah... aka something or other.... But one does it with showing respect for others frutrations with this um... aka something. and doesn't try to inflate is own ego in the process.. while another.. seeks to inflate it at the expense of another.... Of course.. I am not adverse to Stephen's right to choose is own road... but like me and anyone else.. will be judge by it. for good or for bad.

as I said.. personally I have the preference of one's style over the other.
editted to add

ps.. remember.. he's only at 40 posts at the time of this posting... look forward to seeing him at 1500... maybe he will outlast us all and keep is calm after reading the multitude of idiots and drama on the board... I know I lost after I think post 2

You have me totally confused- I think starting with Stephen being the one to make that quote and then after that you use too many names and then mixed in too many pronouns. I can't tell who you are saying said what in what way and how you feel about it.

Hi LA,

I wasn't suggesting it's appropriate in all relationships, and all situations. I do think of it as a controlled type of meltdown. Every time I've used this technique, I also have to 'catch' the girl when she turns into a sobbing pile of jelly. I also use it very early on in the relationship, to make the point that if one of her goals is to obey, she better darn well do that. I'm not trying to damage anyone into becoming emotional zombies.

I'll start a thread later today on constructive punishment, and taking correction humbly that might be of interest, and show (how I try anyway) to keep a slave from turning into said pile of quaking miserable goo every time she slips up.

Stephan

impression

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 3:17:18 AM

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i hate to bring this up because all to often it was brought up as the source of my problems but i am seeing some truth in it...how old is she? cronologically? emotionally? psychologically? because if asking her what her needs are frustrates her to the point of shutting off, either you're doing something wrong or she's not mature enough...

and while i am fully willing to accept that you may be sociopathic...if she gets free of you because "she's immature", that works too

...

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Formerly known as chellekitty...

Do not be like servants who serve their masters expecting to receive a reward; be rather like servants who serve their master unconditionally, with no thought of reward. --Antigonus of Sokho

(in reply to willowspirit)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 4:39:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

MadRabbit,

My intention wasn't to criticize too many people here. I do that enough on my own time, in other places. Frankly, AKA has never offended me, so I see no reason not to try and be helpful. If you don't think he's worth the effort; well, let him go the way DaughterSlave has for me.

Having said that, the questions he posed, even if you don't think the answers he receives will be of value to him, will also have value to others. A quick skim of the responses to my scenario show some people who did react. Imagine the other, perhaps less experienced dominants, who might have learned something from it?

I don't usually post with the OP in mind strictly, but rather with an eye towards solving the situation, for myself. "How would/have I solve this problem?" Or in offering advice to anyone else who might be in this spot.

Just launching one attack after another on someone who, distasteful or not, seems genuine in trying to learn, seems like a destructive act. Launching attacks on intruders or folks who show their ass.... well, in the Marines we called that "Target Practice."

LCpl Budge

Stephann,

If you reread my post, then you find plenty of constructive thoughts in the first half.

If you feel that me directly stating what I find to be the real problem from past threads to be destructive and "Target Practice", well thats fine.

I personally find it distateful when someone rubs their nose at me, focusing solely on the 10% of my post in their opening statement.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 5:25:26 AM

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From your previous posts and this one included when you mention her going off to mud baths and being gone for 5 days... it seems like she would rather be with her family and friends than being a slave to you. She doesn't contact for hours, she is resentful of orders you give you... you are clearing landmines before dominating.... it seems like there is a bigger question you need to be asking her............. does she really want to be your slave?

(in reply to Hisbellaluna)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 7:23:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: foreverminx

does she really want to be your slave?

It's a good point. There are plenty of owners out there who don't mind their slaves going off, and will even encourage them, and spending time with friends and family. Perhaps it would be best if Jodi found someone more into family and AK found someone who was less.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to foreverminx)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 7:27:27 AM

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Hi MadRabbit,

I wasn't intending to direct my comments at you, personally, I only responded to you directly as a springboard for what you and a couple others had mentioned. The truth is, I usually enjoy reading your ideas, and often learn from them myself.

When I referenced target pratice, I was actually thinking of Bobby Munchkin at the time. In no way was I trying to refer to you, or anyone else, specifically.

My apologies, if I was not clear on that. I meant no ill will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

well.. you have to just ignore the passive aggressive behavior... you just have to love... how someone tries to take the high road by stepping on those on the low road to get there.

personally... I prefer the approach of Redoubt.. when he said the following.
"I appreciate that you are taking some flak from some of the board regulars, but there is a message they're trying to get across and you're not addressing that message... so most of them are either washing their hands of you, or just see you as a joke (I know... thanks for the recap, Red)."

No passive aggressive BS...... the man kept to his road.. and appreciate the value of others choosing their own road.

Interesting don't you think.. in essense... both Stephen and Redoubt putting out olive branch to umm... oh yeah... aka something or other.... But one does it with showing respect for others frutrations with this um... aka something. and doesn't try to inflate is own ego in the process.. while another.. seeks to inflate it at the expense of another.... Of course.. I am not adverse to Stephen's right to choose is own road... but like me and anyone else.. will be judge by it. for good or for bad.

as I said.. personally I have the preference of one's style over the other.

editted to add

ps.. remember.. he's only at 40 posts at the time of this posting... look forward to seeing him at 1500... maybe he will outlast us all and keep is calm after reading the multitude of idiots and drama on the board... I know I lost after I think post 2

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 8/23/2007 9:38:29 PM >

Redux,

I didn't see you'd addressed me until I went back to recheck Madrabbits posts.

Why you felt the need to bitch in this thread all, like my or anyone else's opinion means a damn to you in the first place?

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 8/24/2007 7:43:42 AM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 7:31:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
I'll start a thread later today on constructive punishment, and taking correction humbly that might be of interest, and show (how I try anyway) to keep a slave from turning into said pile of quaking miserable goo every time she slips up.

Stephan

impression

OK. But I was somewhat trying to say that my partner isn't likely to go there anyway by the whole "not a delicate flower" comment.

I think any competent master can really break down a slave REALLY fast if they want to. It's really not that hard IMO with just about anyone, and certainly not with someone who experiences themself as being under your authority.

And I'm not against that method as a whole- although sadly not nearly as many masters know how to build UP a slave once the breaking down easy part is over. And it is a lot harder to build up IMO.

As with everything, we all have tolerances and needs. But as a pragmatist, I go with what's direct, effective and allows us to have the most happiness. While with some people that might require a lot of work at least in the beginning (I was probably that type), with some people it's much more a job of slow molding and small chips at a time.

And I'd say a good 50% of the process of behavior modification is knowing the material you're working with. Unless you have that, the rest of the deal is fucked before you start.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 8:19:10 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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AK, this entire scenario was interesting enough that I went back and did some research. I read - just your initial posts - your journal, your slaves journal. Quite a rollercoaster ride, I have to say. Both of you express a great deal of contentment in your journals, for the most part.

I guess what I seem to be picking up on is that you have this desire to engage in philosophical debates more than any real desire to receive advise. It might be one reason why your posts seem to have a thread that implies the same drama over and over, which is what others are picking up on and finding frustrating - I'd think. This forum has a wealth of experience and common sense to draw upon, if you are able to take what you need and leave the rest. Good luck with that, sometimes its easier to take what we want and ignore what isn't pleasant but needful.

By putting the spotlight on these concerns you raise on the board, you leave people with little to work with, aside from the repeated issues dressed differently. Either you are genuinely having relationship issues - as implied, or you are so wanting to engage the forum in philosphical debate, that you are tossing out breadcrumbs expecting they'll lead others in the direction you want the discussion to go. Either way, you are rather like a Timex. I find it amazing you will take such a kicking and keep on ticking. Kudos for that. Just remember, that people are responding to what you give them. After months of the same issues, you can't really blame them for calling you on them.

From reading your journals, I get the impression that by and large, things are good with you two. However there appears to be obvious emotional terrorist tactics that need addressing between the two of you.

Your profile says a lot regarding your ideals. You state you have this strong desire for total control to the point that your expectations closely mirror the classic signs of an abuser. NO, I'm not claiming you are any such animal. You state in your own profile and in your own words that you are wanting a relationship that mirrors this. I can see, with my narrow view into your world, that you and your slave are accustomed to falling back on quite a few dangerous emotional blackmail tactics. She threatens to leave, you play on your lack of enjoyment having to meet her needs causes you. Its quite a mess, in my opinion.

Resentments, jealousies, frustrations etc. are all emotions that are like the dummy lights in your car. Once the light appears, the problem already exists. If you continue to drive your car, ignoring the problem, you won't have a ride for long. Just from my little research it seems to me that the two of you have some pretty serious behavior issues that need addressing that go far beyond the need for communicating better. You both need to unlearn these potentially damaging tactics. Otherwise, you will continue to have the same issues over and over. I think someone once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. If what you are doing isn't working....take the advise offered by others, and change your M.O.

If I read into things incorrectly, my apologies. Take what you need, leave the rest.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 10:22:28 AM

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When i first started out in D/s, i had no idea what limits were, so i had none. As time went on, naturally some developed. my hard limits are things that i feel if forced to do, it will impact me negatively in some way...or i just find the act so reprehensible that i could never imagine doing it.

i have since sought a partner who would understand those limits and who would not try to push the hard ones. There is a difference between hard limits and just things i wouldn't like to do....and this is what i try to clarify with a potential partner BEFORE we get involved; i'd like to see if we are on the same page first.

If i had a partner who tried to force me past my hard limits, i would probably leave. Why? Because i would definitely feel resentment and i don't see any relationship being able to work with that in the background.

Someone asked if she was really ready to be considered as a slave. Well, maybe limits need to be discussed and she should see if she falls within your expectations....and you, within her parameters. Maybe she just can't be your slave?

But i really am somewhat surprised that the "slave brigade" hasn't come out yet, spouting that her only requirements are to SERVE AND OBEY. Doesn't sound like she's doing much of either to me. i've seen plenty of other slaves say what their Master orders is what they do, regardless of it being family related or not. You say she doesn't see her family, then she doesn't....period. You say she comes to you at a certain time, then she does...period. If that is what you are looking for, or course.

Otherwise, it might be a good idea to reexamine what you are expecting....and what she is capable of, while still maintaining some modicum of fulfillment on both your parts. Maybe her limits are such that they do not coincide with what either of you are looking for in a long term partner.

Good luck.

Daddysgirl

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 11:44:05 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And I'd say a good 50% of the process of behavior modification is knowing the material you're working with. Unless you have that, the rest of the deal is fucked before you start.

Almost. It's the bulk of your work efficiency. Not knowing what you're working with slows you down immensely, and requires an entirely different approach, but it isn't impossible. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has ended up hitting a snag where I can't figure out what I'm working with, and the other party doesn't have any helpful input on it either. If mulling it over for a while doesn't provide any insight, I tend to use a different approach for that one bit.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 11:54:45 AM

Aswad

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Evening, Stephan.

Ironic indeed. See? I just need to wish you well, and you recover.

I agree with where the analogy breaks down. And I perfectly agree that leaving a relationship that has problems one hasn't figured out is just postponing the problems for the next partners to deal with. And if I didn't think improvement was possible, I would not have posted in this thread, as I was working on another at the same time. Communicating here is definitely better than not communicating at all, and asking for help is certainly better than sitting around needing it without asking for it.

So we're on the same page here, I think.

Continued health,

al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 5:12:38 PM

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~fast reply~

She can resent it, it seems to me, as long as it gets done. I don't always like following orders, I don't always act like I like following orders. It is your place as Master to ask questions, alleviate stress, and to know what makes your slave tick while explaining your stance on the situation too.

Work ~together~ toward a mutually satisfying relationship, regardless of resentments that may surface now and then. Allow her to express her resentment without making her feel guilty or ashamed. Correct her when it gets to be too much. Pet and praise her when you're really feeling impressed.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Resentment while obeying - 8/24/2007 9:27:01 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

This kind of made me think ... perhaps there are differing interpretations of resentment here.

Princeton defines it as "a feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will", which is how I read it.

Could the OP clarify whether this interpretation is the one intended?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to slaveish)

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