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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 4:58:02 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		tazzy and Rich--drop it, or start your own thread.

Firm--in all honesty, Panda has a point here. What you wrote does read that way. You don't speak for Fox, but perhaps clarify what you did mean, then.

quote:

Fox sat around talking about how there was about a million people pissed off about paying taxes.  You know, WE THE PEOPLE did have a "TEA PARTY", I believe it was boston, where people spilled tea into the water to signify they were sick of paying taxes.  Now people got together to say the same thing about this gov't.  Fox reported it seriously.

Most other news organizations derailed it


People, this isn't difficult:

1) The Fox story (or other source you consider reliable)
2) The Times/NPR/CNN story (I'm particularly interested in the Times and NPR, if that helps...I rarely see TV anyway)

Show why Fox (or your source) has the story and why the Times/NPR/CNN has the liberal bias. Head to head stories.

It should be very, very easy. I'm asking for these specific examples. So far, all we have are (a) taking Internet portals as news organizations, (b) sweeping claims repeating the liberal bias stance but with only one source, not the support that other news organizations performed as claimed, (c) noting many journalists are Democrats (irrelevant, since bias still needs to be demonstrated, and there are more Democrats than Republicans period), (d) the rather obvious point that book authors are often biased (why shouldn't they be?).

If you asked me the same of Fox, I'd have been done in two minutes. Yesterday Foxnews.com had all stories about Republicans and one "story" about Limbaugh claiming the Democrats are taking over the private sector--an opinion piece, not investigated, presented as news, their number two story. Pretty obvious and intentional bias. Today, their lead story is the Afghan election (the Times' lead story yesterday), election coverage that attacks Obama, and Limbaugh's "story" again. This is why I don't take Fox seriously as news.

I do take the Times and NPR seriously as news--not perfect, not solely, but overall a comprehensive and comparatively well-covered presentation of world and national events. Where's the liberal bias. We're on page three, and no one has yet provided a single example of head to head stories highlighting this liberal bias.

Head to head stories.
Fox or your other reliable source (I've even proposed the Wall St. Journal and Christian Science Monitor if that helps).
The liberally biased story in the New York Times, NPR, or CNN (but especially the first two, as major sources of the criticism).

Thank you.

(in reply to blackcat39)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:03:58 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackcat39

Liberals are still idiots talking about tea bagging.  Liberals who promote stupid laws regarding marriage, and then want to make innappropriate jokes about a real movement.



Speaking of idiots.

Was it not the protesters themselves who claimed to be "tea baggers" until someone pointed out to them the negative connotations?

It just doesn't get any funnier than that.   

(in reply to blackcat39)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:06:10 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Again, rule et al, please stop with the slinging. There's plenty of that in any thread you please. Or take it to PM.

News links.

Head to head news stories. Please.


(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:16:26 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		FR: I don't know of any true unbiased news sources, 100% of the time. Fox certainly isn't, and MSNBC and the NY Times aren't that much better.

RealClearPolitics is a good site that pools a large number of sources together, and you can often get a look at an issue from different angles there.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:19:32 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, rule et al, please stop with the slinging. There's plenty of that in any thread you please. Or take it to PM.

News links.

Head to head news stories. Please.




I would be glad to, but you want proof of liberal bias which I don't see any of those who normally complain of it supplying. 

And I've already offered to provide proof from the other perspective.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:26:34 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackcat39

Liberals are still idiots talking about tea bagging.  Liberals who promote stupid laws regarding marriage, and then want to make innappropriate jokes about a real movement.



Speaking of idiots.

Was it not the protesters themselves who claimed to be "tea baggers" until someone pointed out to them the negative connotations?

It just doesn't get any funnier than that.   


To be fair, I suspect that most of them didn't know any gay people who could set them straight on that one.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 5:27:04 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I don't know of any true unbiased news sources, 100% of the time.


We covered that already, Level. I think everyone acknowledges that.

quote:

Fox certainly isn't,


Some posters disagree.

quote:

and MSNBC and the NY Times aren't that much better.


I agree about MSNBC, as I've already said. It's a hybrid Internet portal, vs. a news organization.

As for your claim that the NY Times isn't much better, that's what I'm asking you to demonstrate.

Head to head stories. What's the problem with the Times? Show me the bias.

If it's so apparent, this should be an easy thing to show. So show me. Please. Examples.

Here's the true story, here's the biased Times/NPR story. Simple. Specific examples.

quote:

RealClearPolitics is a good site that pools a large number of sources together, and you can often get a look at an issue from different angles there.


Actually, no. It links to multiple stories as they choose, not various "sides" of the same story. It's an Internal portal, not a news source.

My professional sites both have live news feed from multiple sources. Doesn't make me a news organization either.

Let's go to the sources themselves, not the feed.

Head to head news stories--straight stuff, bias in the Times/NPR. Side by side.

Thanks.

A forum search for "liberal bias" turns up 300 hits (which I think is the maximum it will return, yes?).

Show me--head to head stories.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/1/2009 5:59:44 AM >

(in reply to Level)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 7:01:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Tal Tim,

I have fretted over this a bit, and am in general agreement, there is no completely unbiased network, or they would all be one network.

I will only point out that PBS is more UNbiased than people give it credit for.

It was PBS that ran William F. Buckleys Firing Line for 33 years.

They have David Brooks on the NewsHour with Jim Leher to forward more conservative opinions, but I fear that he is not rabid enough, (more centrist) that his writing for the Wall Street Journal and working many years for William F. Buckley will not suffice for some.

In nearly every case I have known, if there is a heated liberal cause espoused on PBS (and NPR all of this includes NPR) there is an offsetting conservative viewpoint freely espoused.

Even Bill Moyers who might be the polar opposite of Buckley, his journal show has conservative guests on, and he doesn't shout them down or belittle them, they carry on a conversation, stressing their own views, and they are fully heard.

I will stipulate that Fox was not around for the most part at the time of Firing Line.

And the BBC has no vituperative stances vis a vis political thought like we have here.

So, it is adversarial in nature, but it does present both sides.

But I have to give myself an incomplete, in that I have no head-to-head comparison.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/1/2009 7:57:01 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:01:39 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I only went back 15 pages, but the posts' assertions were repetitive, so I'll just offer that much--here are links to just a few people's claims that the media holds a "liberal bias":

Arrogance
BitaTrouble
Buotenin
celticlord2112
cuckyman
corysub
CreativeDominant
CruelNUnusual
Crush
cyberdude611
Estring
Fergus
gift4mistress
Gwynvyd
herfacechair
lockedaway
MasterShake69
Mercnbeth
RacerJim
Sanity
subrob1967
Thanatosian
thishereboi
tnai
willbeurdaddy
VioletGray

Most of these offer no proof at all, just repeating the presumption of "liberal bias."

Only three do:

One offers a youtube link as "proof."

Two offer links to studies as if a fait accompli with no discussion or explanation, just blindly accepting the conclusions (important because studies conflict all the time--the methodology is important...ironically, one of these posters even makes that point while ignoring it himself), all based on singular analysis, not comparing story to story.

None offer any head to head comparisons of stories.

ALL OF THEM treat Internet portals as "news sources," including the studies. None of them seriously address the Times or NPR.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, nor jump to conclusions, but I think people could be forgiven for observing:

1) none of these posters have actually examined the Times or NPR, and instead are making or repeating an assumption
2) none of these posters, who see themselves as savvy critical readers, seriously consider whether their "news" sources are indeed professional news organizations, rather than Internet sources with the goal of increased Internet traffic, not news
3) any debate regarding "liberal bias" quickly turns to red herrings, usually that nothing is unbiased
4) a lot of the discussion deals with columnists/opinion shows, not news

And most important---

The burden of proof rests with the person making the claim. So far, we have absolutely no hard evidence (and mostly no evidence at all).

Head to head stories, please:

Your relatively reliable source's story next to the liberally biased story in the Times/NPR.

The floor is open. Again, I'm honestly asking. Please show me.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/1/2009 8:57:30 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:07:14 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		This discussion does remind me of a point that (I think) Gwyneth Jones raised back in the '90s: ideology is almost invisible unless it's massively overstated, or you disagree with it (or both). Could it be that the named posters are oblivious to Rush Limbaugh's, Glenn Beck's and Bill O'Reilly's biases because they share these to enough of an extent to make said biases seem insignificant?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 11/1/2009 8:17:36 AM >

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:09:50 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Moonhead, let's not move to characterizations. Things will just go downhill fast.

Let's stick to the source material.

Head to head comparisons of stories.


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:15:54 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Fair enough. I just wondered if that might having anything to do with the fact that people aren't rising to the bait.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:19:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No baiting at all. A simple request for the evidence.

Here's one story, here's the biased one. Specific examples.

Fox/other source -- Times/NPR.

Fair/balanced news -- liberal bias.

That's it.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/1/2009 8:20:24 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:19:20 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Not in a position to look up links at the moment..but do the number of times that Fox ran a story that CNN/MSNBC/etc didn't touch count?

I remember when John Stewart for instance (Yes, I know he's a comedian, but you'd be hard pressed to call him conservative) criticized the mainstream media for being silent on the ACORN thing.  (Days after Fox reported it, as the only ones to to do so.)

Personally, in my experience, there's no denying Fox is biased to the right.  It seems to me that CNN is biased  a little to the left, and MSNBC is biased far left.  Which is why I watch both CNN and Fox.  And I'm stopping there until I have time to look up some links, because what I want to say next would throw some people in a serious tizzy.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 11/1/2009 8:22:08 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:21:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Evidence counts.

Head to head stories.


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:24:49 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Trouble is, my observations of bias often falls into what stories don't get run by certain news organizations, making head to head comparisons problematic in those cases.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:28:43 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		First thing I'm doing though is looking up the sources to what this guy wrote for the National Review, because if what he said is true, there's good examples there.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YzIxZDJhNTk2ZWQwNmYzOTI3ZmIwMDcyYzhlNzVjNzc=

Edit- and btw, I'm just referring to what he said about the coverage of Rush's debunked quote and Dunn's quote...not touching the rant at the end.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 11/1/2009 8:33:18 AM >

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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:29:21 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Then dismissing a story for liberal bias seems kinda silly, huh? Kinda like arguing it shouldn't be reported at all--alas, that's what news organizations do, gather and report news.

If you want to list and examine the stories covered, go for it. But Fox is really gonna suck next to the Times and NPR in that regard--I pointed that out, with specifics, earlier in this thread.

Evidence, not attitude, not perception, not subjectivity.

These guys said/did this, fair and balanced, while the Times/NPR reported/did this, liberal bias.

Not columnists, not talk show hosts, not TV opinion shows, not comedy spoofs....news.







< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/1/2009 8:31:18 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:36:41 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		http://mrc.org/press/releases/2009/20091013010623.aspx

Pretty inarguable that CNN aired a quote that Rush never said that paints him as racist.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 11/1/2009 8:38:14 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Take the Fox Balance/Bias Challenge! - 11/1/2009 8:44:48 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Personally, i have issues with book sources.  They all want to sell a book.

Im confused by your post in relation to the site.  Are you suggesting that the deregulation of mental health added nothing to the problems of homelessness?



ridiculous

TV wants to sell ads, independent/syndicated print journalists want their stories to be bought, employed print journalists want to keep their job. If financial motivation is your criteria for dismissing a source then stick to free blogs for your "accurate news".

Books are by far the best source because they have the time and space to document what they say.

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